Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever

On Dec 13, 10:30*am, Fred Flintstein
wrote:

Dumbasses,

For an awful lot of riders a top ten in a grand tour represents their
top end, and especially if they aren't exceptional bike handlers.

He's never shown any indication that he's capable of more.


I agree.

Same goes for Ekimov or Danny Pate or Popovych or any number of riders
who were very good at the u-23/amateur level but supposedly didn't
live up to expectations at the top level.

But Danielson has added comic elements: strange stomach ailments,
racetime jitters and eskimo blood.

On Dec 13, 7:49*am, Amit Ghosh wrote:
On Dec 13, 10:30*am, Fred Flintstein

wrote:
Dumbasses,

For an awful lot of riders a top ten in a grand tour represents their
top end, and especially if they aren't exceptional bike handlers.

He's never shown any indication that he's capable of more.

I agree.

Same goes for Ekimov or Danny Pate or Popovych or any number of riders
who were very good at the u-23/amateur level but supposedly didn't
live up to expectations at the top level.

But Danielson has added comic elements: strange stomach ailments,
racetime jitters and eskimo blood.



Dumbass -

And no bike handling skills.

That's not to be discounted. Someone who isn't relaxed riding in the
bunch expends more nervous energy. I had a friend who was a bit of a
whack job and he was very strong aerobically but he'd freak out and
get very nervous before races. His HR would be at AT on the startline.
Dude never got any results, not even in Cat 4.

I'm sure Danielson isn't that bad, but if you can't relax, it drains
your adrenals.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

Panic induced intervals.

On Dec 10, 5:56*am, Anton Berlin wrote:
On Dec 9, 8:33*pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:



On Dec 9, 5:55*am, Anton Berlin wrote: Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz. *If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish ****ing **** and deserves the worst.

But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.

Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.

(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)

On Dec 9, 5:55*am, Anton Berlin wrote:

Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz. *If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish ****ing **** and deserves the worst.

But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.

Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.

(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)

I said "worst teammate," not "worst racer." As you note, Grewal
achieved cycling greatness that day.

But he took an awful risk. He relied on being able to outsprint Bauer
heads-up, but he got away with it. As he notes, the good-teammate plan
would have meant delivering Kiefel and Phinney to the finish, with
extremely good odds for the USA.

The meta-problem at the Olympics and Worlds is that national "teams"
are largely a crock, featuring minimal functional loyalties (as
opposed to pro teams, where the personal and financial ties are
usually stronger). Even club teams are more of a real team.

Exactly ! *How is anyone (Alexi especially) expected to have
allegiance to guys he barely rode with? *Just because they all have
the same super gay stars and stripes jersey on?

This is the exact same problem that haunted the US 100k teams for the
80s and 90s. *The ten speed drive boys - working as friends that rode
together often - typically went 4-8 minutes faster than the ad hoc
teams the coaches threw together again and again (the definition of
insanity) *and sent to international events.

Alexi had one allegiance that day and that was to work for himself.
Anyone that's won eventually second guesses (often much later in
life ) as much as the guys that got second or sixteenth.

**** Davis Phinney - if he didn't have the sense to bring enough food
and drink or try to gain advantage be wearing a skinsuit with only 1
pocket then he deserves the place he got.

I'll venture this - in a three up sprint with Phinney, Bauer and
Grewal - Grewal still could win because he would be smart enough to
take advantage of those 2 marking each other and would enter the end
zone untouched.

From reading his blogs and news stories it's clear Alexi (as a human)
is going through a stage where he's trying to rationalize his life,
justify or pardon his past and have it all make sense.

That day in 1984 he inspired 10s of thousands to ride and put in the
miles (me included) and that vision kept me riding many times for many
years.

If you or even he wants to **** on that candy now - well OK that's
everyone's right - but it doesn't change the fact that for years his
ride inspired every loner, every misfit and every one that wanted to
do something for themselves and prove to the world and lastly the
internal doubts we all have that they have value and can do something
incredible.

I don't know him, never raced against him but Alexi Grewal is the
greatest "teammate" ever because at 23 he got it right.

The race is with ourselves. *The things we do only mark our souls. And
no one really keeps our score but ourselves.

And independent ****ers like Henry Chang, Magilla, Alexi and maybe
Anton *make this world 100x better than a million ass grabbing glad
handing yes-men team players.

I am in the business world and I can tell you for a fact that the
"teammates" and *"team players" are the most detestable untrustworthy
****s out there.

So in the end - maybe your subject line isn't so bad - calling someone
like Alexi "the worst teammate ever" is about the best damn compliment
one can make.

Here's an example of Grewal doing the good as a teammate. From
Borysewicz' book, Bicycle Road Racing:

- Sometimes a talented rider with enough determination can block even
good riders who know exactly what he's trying to do. There was an
excellent example of this in the final stage of the 1983 Coors
Classic. Dale Stetina, in third place on general classification, got
into an early break with wore than a dozen very powerful East
Europeans and Americans...

- Stetina was in position to move into first place if he could gain
4:56 on the race leader, who had missed the echelon along with a
number of other good riders, including Stetina's teammate, Alexi
Grewal. Using the blocking tactics I've just described, Grewal worked
against the chase's progress for almost 150 km and Stetina got more
than enough time for the victory. After the race, Grewal told Velo-
news what he had to endure at the front of the chase. "I was really
getting beat up. Guys were elbowing me and hitting me all the time,
especially the Swiss pros. That made me mad and then I really started
getting into it. After a while they sort of gave in and were letting
me move in anywhere I wanted."

On Dec 13, 3:13*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
wrote:
On Dec 13, 7:49*am, Amit Ghosh wrote:









On Dec 13, 10:30*am, Fred Flintstein

wrote:
Dumbasses,

For an awful lot of riders a top ten in a grand tour represents their
top end, and especially if they aren't exceptional bike handlers.

He's never shown any indication that he's capable of more.

I agree.

Same goes for Ekimov or Danny Pate or Popovych or any number of riders
who were very good at the u-23/amateur level but supposedly didn't
live up to expectations at the top level.

But Danielson has added comic elements: strange stomach ailments,
racetime jitters and eskimo blood.

Dumbass -

And no bike handling skills.

That's not to be discounted. Someone who isn't relaxed riding in the
bunch expends more nervous energy. I had a friend who was a bit of a
whack job and he was very strong aerobically but he'd freak out and
get very nervous before races. His HR would be at AT on the startline.
Dude never got any results, not even in Cat 4.

I'm sure Danielson isn't that bad, but if you can't relax, it drains
your adrenals.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

Dumbass, you're posting as if Adrenaline Theory is a myth.

On Dec 13, 11:24*pm, yirgster wrote:
On Dec 10, 5:56*am, Anton Berlin wrote:









On Dec 9, 8:33*pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

On Dec 9, 5:55*am, Anton Berlin wrote: Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz. *If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish ****ing **** and deserves the worst.

But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.

Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.

(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)

On Dec 9, 5:55*am, Anton Berlin wrote:

Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz. *If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish ****ing **** and deserves the worst.

But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.

Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.

(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)

I said "worst teammate," not "worst racer." As you note, Grewal
achieved cycling greatness that day.

But he took an awful risk. He relied on being able to outsprint Bauer
heads-up, but he got away with it. As he notes, the good-teammate plan
would have meant delivering Kiefel and Phinney to the finish, with
extremely good odds for the USA.

The meta-problem at the Olympics and Worlds is that national "teams"
are largely a crock, featuring minimal functional loyalties (as
opposed to pro teams, where the personal and financial ties are
usually stronger). Even club teams are more of a real team.

Exactly ! *How is anyone (Alexi especially) expected to have
allegiance to guys he barely rode with? *Just because they all have
the same super gay stars and stripes jersey on?

This is the exact same problem that haunted the US 100k teams for the
80s and 90s. *The ten speed drive boys - working as friends that rode
together often - typically went 4-8 minutes faster than the ad hoc
teams the coaches threw together again and again (the definition of
insanity) *and sent to international events.

Alexi had one allegiance that day and that was to work for himself.
Anyone that's won eventually second guesses (often much later in
life ) as much as the guys that got second or sixteenth.

**** Davis Phinney - if he didn't have the sense to bring enough food
and drink or try to gain advantage be wearing a skinsuit with only 1
pocket then he deserves the place he got.

I'll venture this - in a three up sprint with Phinney, Bauer and
Grewal - Grewal still could win because he would be smart enough to
take advantage of those 2 marking each other and would enter the end
zone untouched.

From reading his blogs and news stories it's clear Alexi (as a human)
is going through a stage where he's trying to rationalize his life,
justify or pardon his past and have it all make sense.

That day in 1984 he inspired 10s of thousands to ride and put in the
miles (me included) and that vision kept me riding many times for many
years.

If you or even he wants to **** on that candy now - well OK that's
everyone's right - but it doesn't change the fact that for years his
ride inspired every loner, every misfit and every one that wanted to
do something for themselves and prove to the world and lastly the
internal doubts we all have that they have value and can do something
incredible.

I don't know him, never raced against him but Alexi Grewal is the
greatest "teammate" ever because at 23 he got it right.

The race is with ourselves. *The things we do only mark our souls. And
no one really keeps our score but ourselves.

And independent ****ers like Henry Chang, Magilla, Alexi and maybe
Anton *make this world 100x better than a million ass grabbing glad
handing yes-men team players.

I am in the business world and I can tell you for a fact that the
"teammates" and *"team players" are the most detestable untrustworthy
****s out there.

So in the end - maybe your subject line isn't so bad - calling someone
like Alexi "the worst teammate ever" is about the best damn compliment
one can make.

Here's an example of Grewal doing the good as a teammate. From
Borysewicz' book, Bicycle Road Racing:

- Sometimes a talented rider with enough determination can block even
good riders who know exactly what he's trying to do. *There was an
excellent example of this in the final stage of the 1983 Coors
Classic. Dale Stetina, in third place on general classification, got
into an early break with wore than a dozen very powerful East
Europeans and Americans...

- Stetina was in position to move into first place if he could gain
4:56 on the race leader, who had missed the echelon along with a
number of other good riders, including Stetina's teammate, Alexi
Grewal. Using the blocking tactics I've just described, Grewal worked
against the chase's progress for almost 150 km and Stetina got more
than enough time for the victory. *After the race, Grewal told Velo-
news what he had to endure at the front of the chase. "I was really
getting beat up. Guys were elbowing me and hitting me all the time,
especially the Swiss pros. *That made me mad and then I really started
getting into it. After a while they sort of gave in and were letting
me move in anywhere I wanted."

Love it. This will inspire me to new heights of bad behavior in the
Cat 4 peloton.

On Dec 12, 6:33*pm, Fred wrote:
First ever bike race I ever saw (not counting the TdF on tv), I
watched AG soft-pedaling up a climb after he'd come unglued from a
breakaway group. *It was a stage race, and I had no idea about or
appreciation of why he'd just sit up like he did. *In retrospect, I
know exactly why he eased up, but at the time I didn't understand.

Anyway, not knowing any better, I tried to encourage him up the
climb. *He could've just graciously accepted my cheers, but no, he has
to say something truly smart-ass. *All I could think at the time was
what an ass he was.

Fred

And you can't remember what he said?! WORST! STORY! EVER!!1!

On Dec 12, 4:32*am, "A. Dumas" wrote:
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:

could call it "emotional", but it's a bit more than that. Some people
are emotional and manifest it outwardly in a positive way.

Definitely agreed. Lots of emotional people who make it big in sports,
cycling included. Think of hothead sprinters or nervous climbers.

Well...Grewal was a pro-grade rider, perhaps, but not manifestly
awesome. Say what you like about their emotional states and
emotionality (whether real or manufactured), but what made guys like
Cipo and Pantani (and nowadays, Cavendish would be the prime example)
desireable was having gobs and gobs of talent.

Basically, to take Cavendish as my scapegoat here, he is the best
sprinter in the peloton, and thus almost any behavior that doesn't
impact his ability to win races (we're talking live boy/dead girl/
pretending to be in Mexico/pretending to be Ron Mexico here) is
acceptable behavior.

The standard of allowable behavior for pack fodder is lower.

My point is that emotionality isn't a deficiency if you're manifestly
great at riding a bike. It is a problem if you're merely incredibly
good at riding a bike.

PS: pro bike racing is stupid, just ask Magilla. Given his results,
maybe ask Grewal .

On Dec 14, 1:53*am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
On Dec 12, 6:33*pm, Fred wrote:

First ever bike race I ever saw (not counting the TdF on tv), I
watched AG soft-pedaling up a climb after he'd come unglued from a
breakaway group. *It was a stage race, and I had no idea about or
appreciation of why he'd just sit up like he did. *In retrospect, I
know exactly why he eased up, but at the time I didn't understand.

Anyway, not knowing any better, I tried to encourage him up the
climb. *He could've just graciously accepted my cheers, but no, he has
to say something truly smart-ass. *All I could think at the time was
what an ass he was.

Fred

And you can't remember what he said?! WORST! STORY! EVER!!1!

Just 'cause I didn't tell you what he said doesn't mean I don't
remember what he said...

anyway, what he said wasn't the point, and you know that.

Fred

In article
,
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

On Dec 12, 4:32Â*am, "A. Dumas" wrote:
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:

could call it "emotional", but it's a bit more than that. Some people
are emotional and manifest it outwardly in a positive way.

Definitely agreed. Lots of emotional people who make it big in sports,
cycling included. Think of hothead sprinters or nervous climbers.

Well...Grewal was a pro-grade rider, perhaps, but not manifestly
awesome. Say what you like about their emotional states and
emotionality (whether real or manufactured), but what made guys like
Cipo and Pantani (and nowadays, Cavendish would be the prime example)
desireable was having gobs and gobs of talent.

Basically, to take Cavendish as my scapegoat here, he is the best
sprinter in the peloton, and thus almost any behavior that doesn't
impact his ability to win races (we're talking live boy/dead girl/
pretending to be in Mexico/pretending to be Ron Mexico here) is
acceptable behavior.

The standard of allowable behavior for pack fodder is lower.

My point is that emotionality isn't a deficiency if you're manifestly
great at riding a bike. It is a problem if you're merely incredibly
good at riding a bike.

PS: pro bike racing is stupid, just ask Magilla. Given his results,
maybe ask Grewal .

Cavendish behaves well consistently, and consequently
I am well disposed toward him. Equally talented but
ill-mannered people do not get the good will I have
for Mark Cavendish.

--
Michael Press