A good time for 10km TT?

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message
ups.com...

Even beginners should start to learn to do things the right way. That
way they don't have to unlearn, then relearn.

If a rider aspires to become good at TTs, then he/she should do some
training in the aero position.

And let's see what I wrote that everyone was criticizing again.....

"The fact is that aero stuff and TT bikes make almost no contribution to
a person unless they're already averaging over 25 mph."

Tom Kunich wrote:
"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message
ups.com...

Even beginners should start to learn to do things the right way. That
way they don't have to unlearn, then relearn.

If a rider aspires to become good at TTs, then he/she should do some
training in the aero position.

And let's see what I wrote that everyone was criticizing again.....

"The fact is that aero stuff and TT bikes make almost no contribution to
a person unless they're already averaging over 25 mph."

And you were contradicted by a PHD who happens to study this sort of
thing for a living and also happens to be an experienced time trialest.
Your response was a poorly reasoned annecdote about Lemond and Fignon
trying to prove that areo equipment has no effect at 32 mph. It's at
times like this that your willfull ignorance really shines.

Bret

Bret wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:


"The fact is that aero stuff and TT bikes make almost no contribution to
a person unless they're already averaging over 25 mph."

And you were contradicted by a PHD who happens to study this sort of
thing for a living

It's actually even worse than that: I keep tabs on such things strictly
as a hobby. IOW, Kunich could just as easily educate himself about such
matters the way that I have, but apparently prefers to keep his head
stuck in the sand.

Andy Coggan

wrote in message
oups.com...
Bret wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
"The fact is that aero stuff and TT bikes make almost no contribution
to
a person unless they're already averaging over 25 mph."

And you were contradicted by a PHD who happens to study this sort of
thing for a living

It's actually even worse than that: I keep tabs on such things strictly
as a hobby. IOW, Kunich could just as easily educate himself about such
matters the way that I have, but apparently prefers to keep his head
stuck in the sand.

So with all of that knowledge perhaps you can tell us your best 40 k TT
time?

Tom Kunich wrote:
wrote in message:

It's actually even worse than that: I keep tabs on such things strictly
as a hobby. IOW, Kunich could just as easily educate himself about such
matters the way that I have, but apparently prefers to keep his head
stuck in the sand.

So with all of that knowledge perhaps you can tell us your best 40 k TT
time?

Damn, Kunich. You used to be Coggan's biggest fan:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/038a38fae7445e6e

What went wrong? Who lost Kunich?

Ben
RBR Splinter Faction Historian

Tom Kunich wrote:

So with all of that knowledge perhaps you can tell us your best 40 k TT
time?

Officially? 50:18, at the Pennsylvania State TT on 6/12/99 (I timed
myself in 53 and change, but the officials mixed me up with someone
else). In reality, however, the fastest I've gone is 52:30 at the Craab
River Road TT, in Sugarland, TX, on 9/6/97. I think, though, that I
*might* have been able to beat that time at the D42 TT in Stony Creek,
VA, on 9/2/01. I clocked a 53:26 that day, but that includes having to
stop just after halfway to remove a broken spoke from my front wheel,
and then limping home the rest of the way with the wheel banging on the
brake blocks.

All out-back courses at sea level, and all on 300 W of power...

Andy Coggan

wrote in message
ups.com...
Tom Kunich wrote:
wrote in message:

It's actually even worse than that: I keep tabs on such things strictly
as a hobby. IOW, Kunich could just as easily educate himself about such
matters the way that I have, but apparently prefers to keep his head
stuck in the sand.

So with all of that knowledge perhaps you can tell us your best 40 k TT
time?

Damn, Kunich. You used to be Coggan's biggest fan:

I still am. That doesn't mean that he can't say stupid things now and again.

On the tablet aero stuff looks like it should help everyone regardless of
speed - perhaps a slow person even more. But in practice it simply doesn't
work that way. Slow riders are generally inexperienced riders and they can't
hold steady aero positions for long periods of time and so they simply
destroy the effects of any aero equipment from their discomfort.

That's why again and again best Cat 4 and 5 TT times are set by guys on
standard racing bikes. There's a point at which a guy starts getting good at
TTing and that's the time he should start thinking about aero equipment.
Before that it's just a waste of money.

Tom Kunich wrote:

On the tablet aero stuff looks like it should help everyone regardless of
speed - perhaps a slow person even more. But in practice it simply doesn't
work that way.

Actually, it does. About the only people who think otherwise are the
ones who lack the quantitative skills/insight to realize what is
"signal" and what is "noise".

Slow riders are generally inexperienced riders and they can't
hold steady aero positions for long periods of time and so they simply
destroy the effects of any aero equipment from their discomfort.

Again, total nonsense. For example, there's nothing that a rider
can/can't do to alter the benefit of using aerodynamically designed
wheels.

That's why again and again best Cat 4 and 5 TT times are set by guys on
standard racing bikes.

Not at any race I've ever been to.

There's a point at which a guy starts getting good at
TTing and that's the time he should start thinking about aero equipment.
Before that it's just a waste of money.

There you go trying to dictate how people should spend their money
again...

Andy Coggan

wrote in message
oups.com...
There's a point at which a guy starts getting good at
TTing and that's the time he should start thinking about aero equipment.
Before that it's just a waste of money.

There you go trying to dictate how people should spend their money
again...

As someone pointed out - the fastest TT ever was Greg LeMond using aero
bars. Maybe you'd like to explain to us the reason that total wind tunnel
tuning, total aero equipment and total dedication hasn't been able to break
that record again? After all, that was 17 years ago. Are you telling us that
aero hasn't improved immeasurably since then?

If memory serves, Fignon wasn't even second in the final TT and someone else
without aero stuff finished close enough to Greg to still be one of the
fastest TT's ever even without aero bars.

I'm trying to dictate how people will spend their money? Who is selling a
book on speed? Who is making money off of software purported to make
cyclists faster? Am I making a living writing about speed?

Now let's get this straight Andrew, I'm not accusing you of being mercenary.
I'm accusing you of being nothing more than biased.

Tom Kunich wrote:

As someone pointed out - the fastest TT ever was Greg LeMond using aero
bars. Maybe you'd like to explain to us the reason that total wind tunnel
tuning, total aero equipment and total dedication hasn't been able to break
that record again? After all, that was 17 years ago. Are you telling us that
aero hasn't improved immeasurably since then?

Wow. It was the fastest TDF TT at the time, but Boardman has since
bested it. It was also wind aided and so useless for comparison
purposes. You need to find a better factoid to bolster your straight
from the gut assumptions. Do you know you have more nerve endings in
your gut than you have in your head?

I suppose CURT HARNETT has the fastest TT ever (flying 200m) if you
ignore paced and downhill TTs.

Bret