How come bicycle clothing looks so silly?

In article ,
Lou Holtman wrote:

Frank Krygowski schreef:
On Jan 26, 3:49 am, Peter Clinch wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
But aren't some of the differences explained by the Netherlands' dead
flat terrain and much shorter commuting distances?
Up to a point, but not any further. Look hard enough and you'll find
parts of the US and UK which are remarkably flat too, and Joe Punter
won't be riding what his Cloggie cousins will be riding. Far more
likely /not/ to have mudguards, built in lighting or rack and far more
likely the rider will be troubling themselves with a "sporty" rucksack.

Quite why anyone would want to commute a /greater/ distance with a
rucksack as a typical case I'm not sure, but that's what I see on quite
a few folk.

I completely agree that a commuting bike needs utility accessories.
Mine has fenders, generator lights and reflectors (and an additional
blinkie taillight), a large handlebar bag, a rear rack, interrupter
auxiliary brake levers, and probably some other stuff I'm not thinking
of.

But it's a Raleigh Super Course, and weighs probably 30 pounds with
all that. My impression was that most Dutch bikes were significantly
heavier. I'm not a weight weenie, but I wouldn't like hauling a lot
more weight out of the valley. Can someone give me a typical Dutch
utility bike's weight?

It varies from 15 to 20 kg. The 20 kg bike has drumbrakes, suspension
fork and gearhub. An example is:

http://www.rih.nl/site/modellen/delt...odel/index.php

The lighter 15 kg one will have no suspension fork, V-brakes and
derailleur gears. An example is:

http://www.rih.nl/site/modellen/z-85...odel/index.php

No squirrels over there?

Both are fully equiped bikes, you can buy them at any bikeshop any time
and you have the choice between several brands.

Excellent bikes, except for the sloping top tubes.

--
Michael Press

On Jan 26, 3:38*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,



" wrote:
On Jan 24, 6:24*pm, Chalo wrote:
SMS wrote:

It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.

Bike manufacturers have a symbiotic relationship with bike retailers,
which are usually service shops as well. *Retailers depend heavily
upon accessory sales. *When I was in the bike shop business, markups
on complete bikes ran in the 35% range, while markups on accessories
were usually 100%. *The margin on bikes might cover the cost of
keeping bikes on the floor, but it was the margin on everything else
that made it plausible to do business.

That's surprising to me (the bike markup, I had an idea what the
component markup was). *Are shops in the habit of selling bikes for
what they paid when they need to get them off the floor for the next
years model? *I think I paid around 65%, maybe 70% of MSRP for my last
bike and often see bikes on sale for 50-60% of MSRP. *I know when a
car dealer tells you they're actually losing money selling you a car
at a certain price it's hot air - do bike shops actually do this?

As an aside, I've never bought a car from a dealership but I've come
close and am ruthless in negotiations (I've also helped others
negotiate cars from dealers). *

I did buy a new car at a dealership; am happy with the car and the
purchase.

Car? I seem to recall that you were going to buy one of them gigantic
gas sucking pickups back when gas was $3.50/gal. It stuck in my mind
because I thought at the time "This guy is nuts."
-Paul

In article
,
"Paul G." wrote:

On Jan 26, 3:38*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,



" wrote:
On Jan 24, 6:24*pm, Chalo wrote:
SMS wrote:

It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.

Bike manufacturers have a symbiotic relationship with bike retailers,
which are usually service shops as well. *Retailers depend heavily
upon accessory sales. *When I was in the bike shop business, markups
on complete bikes ran in the 35% range, while markups on accessories
were usually 100%. *The margin on bikes might cover the cost of
keeping bikes on the floor, but it was the margin on everything else
that made it plausible to do business.

That's surprising to me (the bike markup, I had an idea what the
component markup was). *Are shops in the habit of selling bikes for
what they paid when they need to get them off the floor for the next
years model? *I think I paid around 65%, maybe 70% of MSRP for my last
bike and often see bikes on sale for 50-60% of MSRP. *I know when a
car dealer tells you they're actually losing money selling you a car
at a certain price it's hot air - do bike shops actually do this?

As an aside, I've never bought a car from a dealership but I've come
close and am ruthless in negotiations (I've also helped others
negotiate cars from dealers). *

I did buy a new car at a dealership; am happy with the car and the
purchase.

Car? I seem to recall that you were going to buy one of them gigantic
gas sucking pickups back when gas was $3.50/gal. It stuck in my mind
because I thought at the time "This guy is nuts."

I am often nuts. As mentioned at the time, they were being
given away at the station with a fill-up. I heart my behemoth.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
"Paul G." wrote:

On Jan 26, 3:38 pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,



" wrote:
On Jan 24, 6:24 pm, Chalo wrote:
SMS wrote:
It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.
Bike manufacturers have a symbiotic relationship with bike retailers,
which are usually service shops as well. Retailers depend heavily
upon accessory sales. When I was in the bike shop business, markups
on complete bikes ran in the 35% range, while markups on accessories
were usually 100%. The margin on bikes might cover the cost of
keeping bikes on the floor, but it was the margin on everything else
that made it plausible to do business.
That's surprising to me (the bike markup, I had an idea what the
component markup was). Are shops in the habit of selling bikes for
what they paid when they need to get them off the floor for the next
years model? I think I paid around 65%, maybe 70% of MSRP for my last
bike and often see bikes on sale for 50-60% of MSRP. I know when a
car dealer tells you they're actually losing money selling you a car
at a certain price it's hot air - do bike shops actually do this?
As an aside, I've never bought a car from a dealership but I've come
close and am ruthless in negotiations (I've also helped others
negotiate cars from dealers).
I did buy a new car at a dealership; am happy with the car and the
purchase.
Car? I seem to recall that you were going to buy one of them gigantic
gas sucking pickups back when gas was $3.50/gal. It stuck in my mind
because I thought at the time "This guy is nuts."

I am often nuts. As mentioned at the time, they were being
given away at the station with a fill-up. I heart my behemoth.


I wonder how many people who bought SUVs last summer because of the
$3/gallon guarantee are gnashing their teeth.

Andre Jute wrote:
On Jan 25, 4:01 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:
Frank Krygowski schreef:
Frank Krygowski schreef:



On Jan 25, 7:32 am, Lou Holtman wrote:
Clive George schreef:
"terryc" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:53:04 -0800, Frank Krygowski wrote:
But I agree that riders may want different choices. Maybe the
ultimate is a custom bike with all accessories you want designed and
built as a system... for those who can afford such a thing.
Different people, = different touring = different bicycles.
The Q is "Is there enough people who want a particular combo to justify it
being prebuilt"?
I'd suggest that if it was, then it would have been already done.
And it has - just in places where cyling for transport is the norm, not the
exception.
Indeed. As a Dutchman I scratch my head everytime when I see what is
considered a commuter bike in the US.
But aren't some of the differences explained by the Netherlands' dead
flat terrain and much shorter commuting distances?
My commuter, modified and used for 30+ years, works very well for my 7
mile (each way) ride with the long climb out of the valley. I
wouldn't want to haul a standard Dutch bike up that hill, nor ride at
the slow speed such a bike promotes.
- Frank Krygowski
Frank, I'm not talking about a city bike. A 7 mile commute is even in
the Netherlands very common. I live close to my work and I have to ride
10 km one way. Yes it's dead flat out here but most commuter bikes have
3x9 gears (I don't know why but still) or a 8 speed gearhub, but they
also have standard fenders, full light system, luggage rack, chaincase,
kickstand, pump, saddlebag etc. People would not accept a bike with less.

Lou

And a frame lock. Both my Dutch town and country bikes came with
fitted frame locks as standard. I was annoyed when my new German bike
came without a lock. It isn't the extra expense but the nuisance of
having to order the thing.

And coat protectors. Both my Dutch town and country bikes came with
coat protectors too. My new German bike could do with those too, even
after I fit spoilers and crud-catchers to the mudguards.

It really is very useful to be able to ride the bicycle in the same
clothes you will wear to the office, or church, or a restaurant. But
that concept is unknown in America, where cycling is hard and dirty
and lacks the common graces, if our friends here on RBT are
representative witnesses.

I don't think they are. In my neck of the woods (Boston) I find cyclists
in street clothes to be a not particularly rare phenomenon.

I think this accessories rant is much ado about nothing. My wife
commutes. I built up her bike with a discarded frame, inexpensive MTB
components (V-brakes, trigger shifters, triple chainring), inexpensive
accessories (fenders, mudflaps, rear rack & pannier, front bag, lights,
lock with frame bracket, fat slicks, flip-flop pedals) and she added
rain cape, SPD sandals, helmet cover, rain/wind pants, rain/wind jacket,
gloves and glasses.

The whole setup was very inexpensive and didn't require a great deal of
cleverness. It has proved to be a reliable and convenient commuting and
errand running solution for a few years now.

I suppose a purist would want skirt/coat guards, chainguard, generator
lights and a gearhub. She hasn't found those things to be all that
necessary, but they'd be easy enough to add.

On Jan 26, 1:36*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Jan 25, 4:01*pm, Lou Holtman wrote:





Frank Krygowski schreef:
Frank Krygowski schreef:

On Jan 25, 7:32 am, Lou Holtman wrote:
Clive George schreef:

"terryc" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:53:04 -0800, Frank Krygowski wrote:
But I agree that riders may want different choices. *Maybe the
ultimate is a custom bike with all accessories you want designed and
built as a system... for those who can afford such a thing.
Different people, = different touring = different bicycles.
The Q is "Is there enough people who want a particular combo to justify it
being prebuilt"?
I'd suggest that if it was, then it would have been already done.
And it has - just in places where cyling for transport is the norm, not the
exception.
Indeed. As a Dutchman I scratch my head everytime when I see what is
considered a commuter bike in the US.

But aren't some of the differences explained by the Netherlands' dead
flat terrain and much shorter commuting distances?

My commuter, modified and used for 30+ years, works very well for my 7
mile (each way) ride with the long climb out of the valley. *I
wouldn't want to haul a standard Dutch bike up that hill, nor ride at
the slow speed such a bike promotes.

- Frank Krygowski

Frank, I'm not talking about a city bike. A 7 mile commute is even in
the Netherlands very common. I live close to my work and I have to ride
10 km one way. Yes it's dead flat out here but most commuter bikes have
3x9 gears (I don't know why but still) or a 8 speed gearhub, but they
also have standard fenders, full light system, luggage rack, chaincase,
kickstand, pump, saddlebag etc. People would not accept a bike with less.

Lou

And a frame lock. Both my Dutch town and country bikes came with
fitted frame locks as standard. I was annoyed when my new German bike
came without a lock. It isn't the extra expense but the nuisance of
having to order the thing.

And coat protectors. Both my Dutch town and country bikes came with
coat protectors too. My new German bike could do with those too, even
after I fit spoilers and crud-catchers to the mudguards.

It really is very useful to be able to ride the bicycle in the same
clothes you will wear to the office, or church, or a restaurant. But
that concept is unknown in America, where cycling is hard and dirty
and lacks the common graces, if our friends here on RBT are
representative witnesses.

I commute in cycling clothes. Sweating in the clothes I will wear all
day at work is not for me. The idea of puttering along at such a
pathetic slow speed you would not sweat at all would be torture. No
joy at all in riding a bike like that. Might as well drive the car.





Andre Jute
Now where are my khakis and poplin shirts, darling? I niff spring in
the air and shall want them for cycling.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

here at Terminus in south Florida with bikepaths galore, the complete
TdF GP cycle outfit is now deriguer. Groups A, B, and lordy lordy C
are dressed in TdF complete with holdursocks, helmet.

Kinda like does the new Mustang look better than the ol' Mustang.

What once was over dressed in now acceptable and moist important
VISIBLE !

the plateau isnot used by lower classes eg hispanics flogging to work
on used Wal MTB.

Why just yesterday I ran over a befuddled C group grandma with dyed
blue hair trying to follow dropped friends across a 4 lane/multi
directional overpass interchange against the light AND between and
under the bridges.

Good luck granny.

she was visible if confused.

On Jan 26, 5:21*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
*"Paul G." wrote:



On Jan 26, 3:38*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,

" wrote:
On Jan 24, 6:24*pm, Chalo wrote:
SMS wrote:

It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.

Bike manufacturers have a symbiotic relationship with bike retailers,
which are usually service shops as well. *Retailers depend heavily
upon accessory sales. *When I was in the bike shop business, markups
on complete bikes ran in the 35% range, while markups on accessories
were usually 100%. *The margin on bikes might cover the cost of
keeping bikes on the floor, but it was the margin on everything else
that made it plausible to do business.

That's surprising to me (the bike markup, I had an idea what the
component markup was). *Are shops in the habit of selling bikes for
what they paid when they need to get them off the floor for the next
years model? *I think I paid around 65%, maybe 70% of MSRP for my last
bike and often see bikes on sale for 50-60% of MSRP. *I know when a
car dealer tells you they're actually losing money selling you a car
at a certain price it's hot air - do bike shops actually do this?

As an aside, I've never bought a car from a dealership but I've come
close and am ruthless in negotiations (I've also helped others
negotiate cars from dealers). *

I did buy a new car at a dealership; am happy with the car and the
purchase.

Car? I seem to recall that you were going to buy one of them gigantic
gas sucking pickups back when gas was $3.50/gal. *It stuck in my mind
because I thought at the time "This guy is nuts."

I am often nuts. As mentioned at the time, they were being
given away at the station with a fill-up. I heart my behemoth.

I heart my behemoth too, but since I was born with mine I don't need
no V10 4WD extended cab over-compensator. However, I do have a diesel
crawler with a 6-way blade. It's only for working on roads and making
ponds, though, it's not a daily driver.
-Paul

schreef:
On Jan 26, 1:36 pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Jan 25, 4:01 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:





Frank Krygowski schreef:
Frank Krygowski schreef:
On Jan 25, 7:32 am, Lou Holtman wrote:
Clive George schreef:
"terryc" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:53:04 -0800, Frank Krygowski wrote:
But I agree that riders may want different choices. Maybe the
ultimate is a custom bike with all accessories you want designed and
built as a system... for those who can afford such a thing.
Different people, = different touring = different bicycles.
The Q is "Is there enough people who want a particular combo to justify it
being prebuilt"?
I'd suggest that if it was, then it would have been already done.
And it has - just in places where cyling for transport is the norm, not the
exception.
Indeed. As a Dutchman I scratch my head everytime when I see what is
considered a commuter bike in the US.
But aren't some of the differences explained by the Netherlands' dead
flat terrain and much shorter commuting distances?
My commuter, modified and used for 30+ years, works very well for my 7
mile (each way) ride with the long climb out of the valley. I
wouldn't want to haul a standard Dutch bike up that hill, nor ride at
the slow speed such a bike promotes.
- Frank Krygowski
Frank, I'm not talking about a city bike. A 7 mile commute is even in
the Netherlands very common. I live close to my work and I have to ride
10 km one way. Yes it's dead flat out here but most commuter bikes have
3x9 gears (I don't know why but still) or a 8 speed gearhub, but they
also have standard fenders, full light system, luggage rack, chaincase,
kickstand, pump, saddlebag etc. People would not accept a bike with less.
Lou
And a frame lock. Both my Dutch town and country bikes came with
fitted frame locks as standard. I was annoyed when my new German bike
came without a lock. It isn't the extra expense but the nuisance of
having to order the thing.

And coat protectors. Both my Dutch town and country bikes came with
coat protectors too. My new German bike could do with those too, even
after I fit spoilers and crud-catchers to the mudguards.

It really is very useful to be able to ride the bicycle in the same
clothes you will wear to the office, or church, or a restaurant. But
that concept is unknown in America, where cycling is hard and dirty
and lacks the common graces, if our friends here on RBT are
representative witnesses.

I commute in cycling clothes. Sweating in the clothes I will wear all
day at work is not for me. The idea of puttering along at such a
pathetic slow speed you would not sweat at all would be torture. No
joy at all in riding a bike like that. Might as well drive the car.



I don't like to work in sweaty clothes either but I also don't like the
hassle of changing clothes twice a day, managing the laundry and take a
shower at work(you do take a shower don't you?) so I 'puttering' to my
work at a pace so I don't sweat in my daily clothes. For 10 km it takes
about 25 minutes. On my way home mayby I do some shopping pick up some
groceries and don't look like a complete idiot in my clothes. Now I'm
home, it's dark put on my cycling clothes and I'm going to ride the ****
out of my singlespeed for 1.5 hour. It's around freezing but I will
sweat. When I am home I take a shower and maybe watch a movie. What's
wrong with that?


Lou, I'm off

On Jan 27, 11:21*am, Lou Holtman wrote:
schreef:





On Jan 26, 1:36 pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Jan 25, 4:01 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:

Frank Krygowski schreef:
Frank Krygowski schreef:
On Jan 25, 7:32 am, Lou Holtman wrote:
Clive George schreef:
"terryc" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:53:04 -0800, Frank Krygowski wrote:
But I agree that riders may want different choices. *Maybe the
ultimate is a custom bike with all accessories you want designed and
built as a system... for those who can afford such a thing.
Different people, = different touring = different bicycles.
The Q is "Is there enough people who want a particular combo to justify it
being prebuilt"?
I'd suggest that if it was, then it would have been already done.
And it has - just in places where cyling for transport is the norm, not the
exception.
Indeed. As a Dutchman I scratch my head everytime when I see what is
considered a commuter bike in the US.
But aren't some of the differences explained by the Netherlands' dead
flat terrain and much shorter commuting distances?
My commuter, modified and used for 30+ years, works very well for my 7
mile (each way) ride with the long climb out of the valley. *I
wouldn't want to haul a standard Dutch bike up that hill, nor ride at
the slow speed such a bike promotes.
- Frank Krygowski
Frank, I'm not talking about a city bike. A 7 mile commute is even in
the Netherlands very common. I live close to my work and I have to ride
10 km one way. Yes it's dead flat out here but most commuter bikes have
3x9 gears (I don't know why but still) or a 8 speed gearhub, but they
also have standard fenders, full light system, luggage rack, chaincase,
kickstand, pump, saddlebag etc. People would not accept a bike with less.
Lou
And a frame lock. Both my Dutch town and country bikes came with
fitted frame locks as standard. I was annoyed when my new German bike
came without a lock. It isn't the extra expense but the nuisance of
having to order the thing.

And coat protectors. Both my Dutch town and country bikes came with
coat protectors too. My new German bike could do with those too, even
after I fit spoilers and crud-catchers to the mudguards.

It really is very useful to be able to ride the bicycle in the same
clothes you will wear to the office, or church, or a restaurant. But
that concept is unknown in America, where cycling is hard and dirty
and lacks the common graces, if our friends here on RBT are
representative witnesses.

I commute in cycling clothes. *Sweating in the clothes I will wear all
day at work is not for me. *The idea of puttering along at such a
pathetic slow speed you would not sweat at all would be torture. *No
joy at all in riding a bike like that. *Might as well drive the car.

I don't like to work in sweaty clothes either but I also don't like the
hassle of changing clothes twice a day, managing the laundry and take a
shower at work(you do take a shower don't you?) so I 'puttering' to my
work at a pace so I don't sweat in my daily clothes. For 10 km it takes
about 25 minutes. On my way home mayby I do some shopping pick up some
groceries and don't look like a complete idiot in my clothes. Now I'm
home, it's dark put on my cycling clothes and I'm going to ride the ****
out of my singlespeed for 1.5 hour. It's around freezing but I will
sweat. When I am home I take a shower and maybe watch a movie. What's
wrong with that?

Lou, I'm off- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have a very short commute to work, 2.1 miles (4 km), so no shower
necessary. I only ride at a reasonable pace to work, so sweating is
minimal. Wipe down works. It takes a few minutes at the beginning
and end of the day to change clothes. You're in the bathroom no
matter what to rearrange your hair after wearing a helmet and
balaclava. As for stopping at the grocery store at the end of rides
to get food, I've never given it one thought what I look like to
others in my cycling clothes. Given the fact the vast, vast majority
of the people in the store are 100 pounds overweight, fat bellies
hanging over their belts, arses a yard wide, jowls hanging below their
chins, their thoughts on my appearance don't have much validity.
After work I ride too. In the same clothes I rode home from work in.
No extra changing necessary. If you're going to change clothes
anyway, does it matter that you change at home or work? Only 55
minutes last night in 15 F temps. Shower afterwards of course. No
movie or TV watching.