How come bicycle clothing looks so silly?

In article ,
" writes:

It really is very useful to be able to ride the bicycle in the same
clothes you will wear to the office, or church, or a restaurant. But
that concept is unknown in America, where cycling is hard and dirty
and lacks the common graces, if our friends here on RBT are
representative witnesses.

We should remember: much of the population of North America
is somewhat rarified and distributed across vast tracts of
real estate. What is viable for city dwellers may not be so
viable for far-flung folks in the boondocks or penboondocks.
In a way I share those people's frustration, as I live in
a city (Vancouver, BC) but my place of work is way out beyond
the borders of urban civilisation (in the wholesaler/warehouse
netherworld of United Blvd in Coquitlam, BC.) So I resort to
public transit, which itself inflicts a 1.25 hour one-way commute
onto my daily routine.

I commute in cycling clothes. Sweating in the clothes I will wear all
day at work is not for me. The idea of puttering along at such a
pathetic slow speed you would not sweat at all would be torture. No
joy at all in riding a bike like that. Might as well drive the car.

I regularly and sweatlessly pass all nearby runners & joggers
while towing a trailerful of wet laundry on my return home from
the laundromat. If I can pass /them/, I don't consider myself
to be "puttering along." If the bicycle makes me faster than
I'd be by walking or running, it's doing its job.

Anyway, it seems to me Andre is talking about bikes more
purpose-built for intra-urban uses than for commuting. And
it's ridiculous to get all kitted-out for a 3 or 5 klik run
in the pouring rain to the supermarket or laundromat or
Dairy Queen. Heck, that's not even worth changing shoes for.

For a city dweller with destinations within the city, it
just feels so free to be able to just hop on and go.
(Maybe after donning a rain cape & spats.)


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On Jan 27, 11:50*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * " writes:

It really is very useful to be able to ride the bicycle in the same
clothes you will wear to the office, or church, or a restaurant. But
that concept is unknown in America, where cycling is hard and dirty
and lacks the common graces, if our friends here on RBT are
representative witnesses.

We should remember: much of the population of North America
is somewhat rarified and distributed across vast tracts of
real estate. *What is viable for city dwellers may not be so
viable for far-flung folks in the boondocks or penboondocks.
In a way I share those people's frustration, as I live in
a city (Vancouver, BC) but my place of work is way out beyond
the borders of urban civilisation (in the wholesaler/warehouse
netherworld of United Blvd in Coquitlam, BC.) *So I resort to
public transit, which itself inflicts a 1.25 hour one-way commute
onto my daily routine.

I commute in cycling clothes. *Sweating in the clothes I will wear all
day at work is not for me. *The idea of puttering along at such a
pathetic slow speed you would not sweat at all would be torture. *No
joy at all in riding a bike like that. *Might as well drive the car.

I regularly and sweatlessly pass all nearby runners & joggers
while towing a trailerful of wet laundry on my return home from
the laundromat. *If I can pass /them/, I don't consider myself
to be "puttering along." *If the bicycle makes me faster than
I'd be by walking or running, it's doing its job.

A 4 hour marathon runner is moving at 6.5 mph. And plenty of folks
don't even jog at that fast of a pace. I'd consider that puttering
along on a bicycle. My short little 2.1 mile commute would take 20
minutes at that pace. Wow.






Anyway, it seems to me Andre is talking about bikes more
purpose-built for intra-urban uses than for commuting. *And
it's ridiculous to get all kitted-out for a 3 or 5 klik run
in the pouring rain to the supermarket or laundromat or
Dairy Queen. *Heck, that's not even worth changing shoes for.

For a city dweller with destinations within the city, it
just feels so free to be able to just hop on and go.
(Maybe after donning a rain cape & spats.)

cheers,
* * * * Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On Jan 27, 11:22*am, "
wrote:


I commute in cycling clothes. *Sweating in the clothes I will wear all
day at work is not for me. *The idea of puttering along at such a
pathetic slow speed you would not sweat at all would be torture. *No
joy at all in riding a bike like that. *Might as well drive the car.

And I commute in my "business casual" work clothes. Seven miles takes
me about 30 minutes. The perspiration issue is minor - I sweat a bit,
but I dry off quickly. (It's not that hot in the AM.) There's no
subsequent stink, and my colleagues can't tell when I've cycled in or
driven the car or motorcycle.

Now, going home is mostly uphill. It's also about 30 minutes (maybe
more this spring - I'm getting older) but I work a lot harder and
sweat a lot more. But neither I nor my wife mind.

I think many Americans have a strange fear of perspiring.

- Frank Krygowski

"!Jones' Sock Puppet" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:22:39 -0800, in alt.war.vietnam
(Tom Keats) wrote:

I'm just saying: a bike is a bike is a bike.

Oh. OK... I suppose I'd have to agree with that.

What's a Lamborghini Countache?

Jones



It is what happens when the driver of said pussy magnet has a dick the size
of a mouse's dick. Which is usually the case. The picked up pussy gets a
Lamborghini **** ache.

--


Don Thompson

Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once,
and that makes me an expert. "

There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance.
~Goethe

It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom;
it is another sight finer to fight for another man's.
~Mark Twain

On Jan 27, 12:42 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jan 27, 11:22 am, "

wrote:

I commute in cycling clothes. Sweating in the clothes I will wear all
day at work is not for me. The idea of puttering along at such a
pathetic slow speed you would not sweat at all would be torture. No
joy at all in riding a bike like that. Might as well drive the car.

And I commute in my "business casual" work clothes. Seven miles takes
me about 30 minutes. The perspiration issue is minor - I sweat a bit,
but I dry off quickly. (It's not that hot in the AM.) There's no
subsequent stink, and my colleagues can't tell when I've cycled in or
driven the car or motorcycle.


I dress in full bike-specific gear for my commute - (now more than) 25
miles each way - takes about an hour and a half. I shower before
leaving in the morning, get plenty sweaty on some summer mornings, and
dry out pretty quickly thanks to the performance fabrics and stuff.

Puttering along can be okay sometimes - for a while - but I couldn't
see riding several hours every day without even getting in shape.

I used to ride in my regular clothes. I was truly amazed how much
better real bike gear works for riding. Won't ever be going back.

Now, going home is mostly uphill. It's also about 30 minutes (maybe
more this spring - I'm getting older) but I work a lot harder and
sweat a lot more. But neither I nor my wife mind.


I get good and soaked w/ sweat sometimes getting home, but who cares.
(Ah, summer... )

I think many Americans have a strange fear of perspiring.


Yes - strange. Like plenty of other people, I (started out, at least)
actually *working* for a living. I feel sorry for those people all
hung up about being sweaty.

In article ,
" writes:

I commute in cycling clothes. *Sweating in the clothes I will wear all
day at work is not for me. *The idea of puttering along at such a
pathetic slow speed you would not sweat at all would be torture. *No
joy at all in riding a bike like that. *Might as well drive the car.

I regularly and sweatlessly pass all nearby runners & joggers
while towing a trailerful of wet laundry on my return home from
the laundromat. *If I can pass /them/, I don't consider myself
to be "puttering along." *If the bicycle makes me faster than
I'd be by walking or running, it's doing its job.

A 4 hour marathon runner is moving at 6.5 mph. And plenty of folks
don't even jog at that fast of a pace. I'd consider that puttering
along on a bicycle. My short little 2.1 mile commute would take 20
minutes at that pace. Wow.

I generally do around 20 kph with that trailerload of
wet laundry in tow (I prefer to dry my clothes at home,)
and that's taking it easy. No sweat.

AFAIC, 10 kph on the bike still beats lugging around a
load of wet laundry on foot over a kilometre.

I'm just using my short-haul laundry runs as an example
of when cycling apparel isn't really so necessary but
cycling is still useful.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

In article ,
Dan O writes:
On Jan 27, 12:42 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jan 27, 11:22 am, "

wrote:

I commute in cycling clothes. Sweating in the clothes I will wear all
day at work is not for me. The idea of puttering along at such a
pathetic slow speed you would not sweat at all would be torture. No
joy at all in riding a bike like that. Might as well drive the car.

And I commute in my "business casual" work clothes. Seven miles takes
me about 30 minutes. The perspiration issue is minor - I sweat a bit,
but I dry off quickly. (It's not that hot in the AM.) There's no
subsequent stink, and my colleagues can't tell when I've cycled in or
driven the car or motorcycle.


I dress in full bike-specific gear for my commute - (now more than) 25
miles each way - takes about an hour and a half. I shower before
leaving in the morning, get plenty sweaty on some summer mornings, and
dry out pretty quickly thanks to the performance fabrics and stuff.

Puttering along can be okay sometimes - for a while - but I couldn't
see riding several hours every day without even getting in shape.

I used to ride in my regular clothes. I was truly amazed how much
better real bike gear works for riding. Won't ever be going back.

Now, going home is mostly uphill. It's also about 30 minutes (maybe
more this spring - I'm getting older) but I work a lot harder and
sweat a lot more. But neither I nor my wife mind.

Considering your commuting distance, I think your approach
is quite sensible and well thought-out.

I get good and soaked w/ sweat sometimes getting home, but who cares.
(Ah, summer... )

I think many Americans have a strange fear of perspiring.


Yes - strange. Like plenty of other people, I (started out, at least)
actually *working* for a living. I feel sorry for those people all
hung up about being sweaty.

Heh. My current work is quite physically demanding,
so when I /can/ cycle-commute, it's no big deal to
do so in my work clothes, which are going to get
sweated up anyway. But when working in confined
spaces such as marine shipping containers, it's
still sociably graceful to avoid emitting certain
odours, like those imbued by garlic or curry or
various liquors.

So I guess some folks can't cycle-commute in their
work clothes, and others can. I consider anyone
who can cycle-commute at all, as blessed.

Even in the heat of summer I find I rarely sweat
while awheel. It's when I stop and get off the
bike I might experience a little breakout of
perspiration. Then, it's nice to have a warm,
sunny patch to stand in for a minute. Going from
right off the bike and into the shade exascerbates
my perspiring.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Paul G. wrote:
On Jan 26, 3:38 pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,



" wrote:
On Jan 24, 6:24 pm, Chalo wrote:
SMS wrote:
It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.
Bike manufacturers have a symbiotic relationship with bike retailers,
which are usually service shops as well. Retailers depend heavily
upon accessory sales. When I was in the bike shop business, markups
on complete bikes ran in the 35% range, while markups on accessories
were usually 100%. The margin on bikes might cover the cost of
keeping bikes on the floor, but it was the margin on everything else
that made it plausible to do business.
That's surprising to me (the bike markup, I had an idea what the
component markup was). Are shops in the habit of selling bikes for
what they paid when they need to get them off the floor for the next
years model? I think I paid around 65%, maybe 70% of MSRP for my last
bike and often see bikes on sale for 50-60% of MSRP. I know when a
car dealer tells you they're actually losing money selling you a car
at a certain price it's hot air - do bike shops actually do this?
As an aside, I've never bought a car from a dealership but I've come
close and am ruthless in negotiations (I've also helped others
negotiate cars from dealers).
I did buy a new car at a dealership; am happy with the car and the
purchase.

Car? I seem to recall that you were going to buy one of them gigantic
gas sucking pickups back when gas was $3.50/gal. It stuck in my mind
because I thought at the time "This guy is nuts."
-Paul

Well, I too have a gas sucking pickup, but I bought it used and cheap.
Costs me almost nothing in add'l insurance, I think I put about 3K on it
last year, half of that just "taking it out for a spin" to keep
everything well lubed. But when I need to haul something to the dump,
help clean out a stash of old car parts, pick up some furniture, etc.
it's great to have it around. Of course I have a driveway that I can
line up 4-5 cars in, not everyone has that luxury. (that was one of the
selling points of the place, really. Unfortunately the lot is so small
that I couldn't get one with a driveway two cars wide... that's just
silly extravagant for northern VA) But it is really nice to have a
spare vehicle and the ability to tow/haul large items (within reason) is
great.

What I don't understand are people who buy something like that and then
drive it every day... unless you're a contractor or a service tech I'd
think that a nice small car would be so much more relaxing to drive, not
to mention economical.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Jan 27, 7:12*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Paul G. wrote:
On Jan 26, 3:38 pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,

" wrote:
On Jan 24, 6:24 pm, Chalo wrote:
SMS wrote:
It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.
Bike manufacturers have a symbiotic relationship with bike retailers,
which are usually service shops as well. *Retailers depend heavily
upon accessory sales. *When I was in the bike shop business, markups
on complete bikes ran in the 35% range, while markups on accessories
were usually 100%. *The margin on bikes might cover the cost of
keeping bikes on the floor, but it was the margin on everything else
that made it plausible to do business.
That's surprising to me (the bike markup, I had an idea what the
component markup was). *Are shops in the habit of selling bikes for
what they paid when they need to get them off the floor for the next
years model? *I think I paid around 65%, maybe 70% of MSRP for my last
bike and often see bikes on sale for 50-60% of MSRP. *I know when a
car dealer tells you they're actually losing money selling you a car
at a certain price it's hot air - do bike shops actually do this?
As an aside, I've never bought a car from a dealership but I've come
close and am ruthless in negotiations (I've also helped others
negotiate cars from dealers). *
I did buy a new car at a dealership; am happy with the car and the
purchase.

Car? I seem to recall that you were going to buy one of them gigantic
gas sucking pickups back when gas was $3.50/gal. *It stuck in my mind
because I thought at the time "This guy is nuts."
-Paul

Well, I too have a gas sucking pickup, but I bought it used and cheap.
Costs me almost nothing in add'l insurance, I think I put about 3K on it
last year, half of that just "taking it out for a spin" to keep
everything well lubed. *But when I need to haul something to the dump,
help clean out a stash of old car parts, pick up some furniture, etc.
it's great to have it around. *Of course I have a driveway that I can
line up 4-5 cars in, not everyone has that luxury. *(that was one of the
selling points of the place, really. *Unfortunately the lot is so small
that I couldn't get one with a driveway two cars wide... that's just
silly extravagant for northern VA) *But it is really nice to have a
spare vehicle and the ability to tow/haul large items (within reason) is
great.

What I don't understand are people who buy something like that and then
drive it every day... *unless you're a contractor or a service tech I'd
think that a nice small car would be so much more relaxing to drive, not
to mention economical.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

I drive a regular cab 4x4 "off-road" model ranger. It's economical
enough that it makes more sense than having 2 vehicles. It's small
and nimble enough to be a plenty relaxing drive. I like being able to
go wheeling on a whim and explore any trail that catches my eye. I
also like to have a bike, dirt bike or kayak with me in decent weather
and a truck in bad weather. I wouldn't want a box truck or a cargo
van as a daily driver, but I really like my ranger.

On Jan 27, 3:30*pm, Peter Cole wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Jan 25, 4:01 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:
Frank Krygowski schreef:
Frank Krygowski schreef:

On Jan 25, 7:32 am, Lou Holtman wrote:
Clive George schreef:
"terryc" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:53:04 -0800, Frank Krygowski wrote:
But I agree that riders may want different choices. *Maybe the
ultimate is a custom bike with all accessories you want designed and
built as a system... for those who can afford such a thing.
Different people, = different touring = different bicycles.
The Q is "Is there enough people who want a particular combo to justify it
being prebuilt"?
I'd suggest that if it was, then it would have been already done.
And it has - just in places where cyling for transport is the norm, not the
exception.
Indeed. As a Dutchman I scratch my head everytime when I see what is
considered a commuter bike in the US.
But aren't some of the differences explained by the Netherlands' dead
flat terrain and much shorter commuting distances?
My commuter, modified and used for 30+ years, works very well for my 7
mile (each way) ride with the long climb out of the valley. *I
wouldn't want to haul a standard Dutch bike up that hill, nor ride at
the slow speed such a bike promotes.
- Frank Krygowski
Frank, I'm not talking about a city bike. A 7 mile commute is even in
the Netherlands very common. I live close to my work and I have to ride
10 km one way. Yes it's dead flat out here but most commuter bikes have
3x9 gears (I don't know why but still) or a 8 speed gearhub, but they
also have standard fenders, full light system, luggage rack, chaincase,
kickstand, pump, saddlebag etc. People would not accept a bike with less.

Lou

And a frame lock. Both my Dutch town and country bikes came with
fitted frame locks as standard. I was annoyed when my new German bike
came without a lock. It isn't the extra expense but the nuisance of
having to order the thing.

And coat protectors. Both my Dutch town and country bikes came with
coat protectors too. My new German bike could do with those too, even
after I fit spoilers and crud-catchers to the mudguards.

It really is very useful to be able to ride the bicycle in the same
clothes you will wear to the office, or church, or a restaurant. But
that concept is unknown in America, where cycling is hard and dirty
and lacks the common graces, if our friends here on RBT are
representative witnesses.

I don't think they are. In my neck of the woods (Boston) I find cyclists
in street clothes to be a not particularly rare phenomenon.

I think this accessories rant is much ado about nothing. My wife
commutes. I built up her bike with a discarded frame, inexpensive MTB
components (V-brakes, trigger shifters, triple chainring), inexpensive
accessories (fenders, mudflaps, *rear rack & pannier, front bag, lights,
lock with frame bracket, fat slicks, flip-flop pedals) and she added
rain cape, SPD sandals, helmet cover, rain/wind pants, rain/wind jacket,
gloves and glasses.

The whole setup was very inexpensive and didn't require a great deal of
cleverness. It has proved to be a reliable and convenient commuting and
errand running solution for a few years now.

I suppose a purist would want skirt/coat guards, chainguard, generator
lights and a gearhub. She hasn't found those things to be all that
necessary, but they'd be easy enough to add.

This is one long admission that *your better half* agrees with Lou and
me, and with other sensible RBTers like Jay B from Chicago. She just
hasn't gone all the way, presumably because you've taken a patriarchal
attitude and failed to inform her of all the available options.

That all these comforts that extend the utility of the bike cost very
little is a point Stephen Scharf has made several times, even putting
a stunningly low figure on what fenders, lights, rack etc would cost
the OEM.

By contrast, it is not difficult to run up a couple of grand in quite
common parts in the aftermarket, as I discovered when recently I
looked into building up a bike on a bought-in frame. I priced the
components on my Gazelle and just the components at retail would have
come to half as much again as the manufacturer's suggested retail
selling price, with a reasonable allowance for the frame to double.

Andre Jute
Simple addition