More on CCFL, 26650, 18650, or 3AA

On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 13:08:58 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

uh, your 'Trump secret police' are regular career Federal
security arresting vandals of Federal property with video
evidence after local LE failed to enforce.

Right. Someone broke a window of a federal building and started a
small fire nearby. Good excuse to bring out the troops. What
followed is confrontation and escalation.

Last time I checked, the governor of a state was required to ask for
federal assistance to deal with situations that couldn't be handled by
the local police or Oregon National Guard (under civilian direction).
Is that still the procedure, or can the feds just invite themselves
and take over?

They're carrying [holstered] regular police sidearms, not
automatic carbines or truncheons or death rays. Sheesh,

Like these officers?
https://kval.com/news/local/gallery/if-this-can-happen-here-in-portland-it-can-happen-anywhere-oregon-ag-sues-feds#photo-2
https://kval.com/news/local/gallery/if-this-can-happen-here-in-portland-it-can-happen-anywhere-oregon-ag-sues-feds#photo-3
https://kval.com/news/local/gallery/if-this-can-happen-here-in-portland-it-can-happen-anywhere-oregon-ag-sues-feds#photo-4
etc.

The current fashion statement is "less than lethal weapons" such as
these:
https://www.google.com/search?q=less+than+lethal+weapons&tbm=isch
The few I've seen came partly in bright orange or yellow so that they
can easily be identified at a distance. While not lethal, they're
quite capable of being abused and doing considerable damage:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/democraciaabierta/el-abuso-de-armas-menos-letales-en-chile-en/

Who are these federal officers?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/
The federal officers who snatched him off the street
as he was walking home from a peaceful protest did not
tell him why he had been detained or provide him any
record of an arrest, he told The Post. As far as he
knows, he has not been charged with any crimes. And,
Pettibone said, he did not know who detained him.
So much for the officers identifying themselves. The first line of
the article says:
Federal customs officials said Friday...
I guess Customs and Border Protection decided to join the fun.

Jeff, you of all people...

I'm disappointed. Of the 3 points I made, you selected the least
important to address. My "secret police" comment was there to mark
how some countries solved their economic problems during the 1930's.
My rant could have probably done as well with out it.

I'll make it easy. I consider the right to redress grievances with
our government far more important than whatever the protesters are
complaining about. Losing that is what worries me.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 7/19/2020 3:41 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, July 19, 2020 at 11:09:31 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/19/2020 12:57 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 00:45:37 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 7/16/2020 10:44 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 19:45:47 -0700, sms
wrote:

No one is stupid enough to vote for Trump a second time.

I hate to ruin your illusions, but that's a bad assumption. I know a
few Trump supporters who are oblivious to reason, and are great at
ignoring the obvious.

Yeah, saying "no one" was not correct. For some, Trump validates their
racism and xenophobia, and to them that means everything. The lies, the
crimes, the incompetence, is of no concern.

It doesn't matter what Trump says or does. People seem to be
genuinely frustrated with the pandemic and are looking for a messiah
or leader to lead them to a quick and painless recovery. Before the
pandemic, these people didn't care much about what the government did.
They just wanted the government to "take care of things" while they
enjoy doing something else. Trump could advocate literally anything
he finds convenient, As long as he promises a quick return to normal,
or that the current slow motion running disaster is not real, these
people will follow his "guidance". I can see their point because
there are no obvious alternative leaders. No sane politician wants to
be at the helm of a sinking ship.

Unfortunately, I see another problem. Trump is doing everything he
can to destroy federal agencies tasked with fighting the pandemic.
Originally, this was attributed to his desire to hide evidence of
Republican ineptitude at fighting the pandemic so that he would be
re-elected. However, he's not acting like he's campaigning for
office, but more like an aspiring dictator in the 1930's style[1], or
maybe the South American style. Meanwhile, the Democrats seem to be
doing next to nothing in terms of campaigning, which suggests that
they don't really want to be in charge of dealing with the pandemic
problem. If true, that gives Trump a defacto win in the next
election. He appears to be already acting the part.


[1] In the 1930's, the big problem was The Great Depression. Like
the current pandemic, nobody had any easy or obvious solution. Several
countries looked for and elected marginal leaders who claimed they
would fix things. The countries didn't approve of what else these
leaders did as long as the leader fixed the economy. 90 years later,
we might be doing the same thing, with predictable and possibly
similar results. The actions of Trump's "secret police" in Portland
Oregon does have a familiar ring.



uh, your 'Trump secret police' are regular career Federal
security arresting vandals of Federal property with video
evidence after local LE failed to enforce.

They're carrying [holstered] regular police sidearms, not
automatic carbines or truncheons or death rays. Sheesh,
Jeff, you of all people...

A normal president would talk to justice about increasing the number of US Marshals to protect federal court property or talk to DHS/FPS to work with PPB to coordinate protection of federal court property -- build coalitions, put out fires, etc., etc. Not Trump. Send storm troopers with zero local coordination and throw gallons of gas on fire for tough talk and photo op in the Rose Garden. Walk to church, waive bible upside down then go play 18 holes -- maybe throw in some COVID-19 denial. Rinse lather repeat. It's exhausting.


-- Jay Beattie.


It has been a rough couple of months for Portland PD:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/portlan...y-of-protests/

You don't want to get to the level of NYC (or Chicago)

Brooklyn Borough President advised residents that they're no
longer taking 911 reports about fireworks and told residents
to 'go talk with' the junior Timothy McVeigh types.

https://nypost.com/2020/07/18/woman-...off-fireworks/

p.s. Keep Portland Weird:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...nt-riots-city/

If more people copied her protest tactics, rather than arson
and vandalism, it would be nice.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 7/19/2020 4:33 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 13:08:58 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

uh, your 'Trump secret police' are regular career Federal
security arresting vandals of Federal property with video
evidence after local LE failed to enforce.

Right. Someone broke a window of a federal building and started a
small fire nearby. Good excuse to bring out the troops. What
followed is confrontation and escalation.

Last time I checked, the governor of a state was required to ask for
federal assistance to deal with situations that couldn't be handled by
the local police or Oregon National Guard (under civilian direction).
Is that still the procedure, or can the feds just invite themselves
and take over?

They're carrying [holstered] regular police sidearms, not
automatic carbines or truncheons or death rays. Sheesh,

Like these officers?
https://kval.com/news/local/gallery/if-this-can-happen-here-in-portland-it-can-happen-anywhere-oregon-ag-sues-feds#photo-2
https://kval.com/news/local/gallery/if-this-can-happen-here-in-portland-it-can-happen-anywhere-oregon-ag-sues-feds#photo-3
https://kval.com/news/local/gallery/if-this-can-happen-here-in-portland-it-can-happen-anywhere-oregon-ag-sues-feds#photo-4
etc.

The current fashion statement is "less than lethal weapons" such as
these:
https://www.google.com/search?q=less+than+lethal+weapons&tbm=isch
The few I've seen came partly in bright orange or yellow so that they
can easily be identified at a distance. While not lethal, they're
quite capable of being abused and doing considerable damage:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/democraciaabierta/el-abuso-de-armas-menos-letales-en-chile-en/

Who are these federal officers?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/
The federal officers who snatched him off the street
as he was walking home from a peaceful protest did not
tell him why he had been detained or provide him any
record of an arrest, he told The Post. As far as he
knows, he has not been charged with any crimes. And,
Pettibone said, he did not know who detained him.
So much for the officers identifying themselves. The first line of
the article says:
Federal customs officials said Friday...
I guess Customs and Border Protection decided to join the fun.

Jeff, you of all people...

I'm disappointed. Of the 3 points I made, you selected the least
important to address. My "secret police" comment was there to mark
how some countries solved their economic problems during the 1930's.
My rant could have probably done as well with out it.

I'll make it easy. I consider the right to redress grievances with
our government far more important than whatever the protesters are
complaining about. Losing that is what worries me.



I heartily agree that our 1st Amendment is pithy, elegant
and critical. I've written in support here many times,
regardless of my position on any given protested issue.

Arson is not protest.
Neither is breaking glass, looting, etc:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/121097...e-coronavirus/

I'm no expert but I think some of those guys pictured are
wearing police gear with police badges and some are
activated ONG. Again I'm not an expert.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 7/19/2020 4:33 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 13:08:58 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

uh, your 'Trump secret police' are regular career Federal
security arresting vandals of Federal property with video
evidence after local LE failed to enforce.

Right. Someone broke a window of a federal building and started a
small fire nearby. Good excuse to bring out the troops. What
followed is confrontation and escalation.

Last time I checked, the governor of a state was required to ask for
federal assistance to deal with situations that couldn't be handled by
the local police or Oregon National Guard (under civilian direction).
Is that still the procedure, or can the feds just invite themselves
and take over?

They're carrying [holstered] regular police sidearms, not
automatic carbines or truncheons or death rays. Sheesh,

Like these officers?
https://kval.com/news/local/gallery/if-this-can-happen-here-in-portland-it-can-happen-anywhere-oregon-ag-sues-feds#photo-2
https://kval.com/news/local/gallery/if-this-can-happen-here-in-portland-it-can-happen-anywhere-oregon-ag-sues-feds#photo-3
https://kval.com/news/local/gallery/if-this-can-happen-here-in-portland-it-can-happen-anywhere-oregon-ag-sues-feds#photo-4
etc.

The current fashion statement is "less than lethal weapons" such as
these:
https://www.google.com/search?q=less+than+lethal+weapons&tbm=isch
The few I've seen came partly in bright orange or yellow so that they
can easily be identified at a distance. While not lethal, they're
quite capable of being abused and doing considerable damage:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/democraciaabierta/el-abuso-de-armas-menos-letales-en-chile-en/

Who are these federal officers?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/
The federal officers who snatched him off the street
as he was walking home from a peaceful protest did not
tell him why he had been detained or provide him any
record of an arrest, he told The Post. As far as he
knows, he has not been charged with any crimes. And,
Pettibone said, he did not know who detained him.
So much for the officers identifying themselves. The first line of
the article says:
Federal customs officials said Friday...
I guess Customs and Border Protection decided to join the fun.

Jeff, you of all people...

I'm disappointed. Of the 3 points I made, you selected the least
important to address. My "secret police" comment was there to mark
how some countries solved their economic problems during the 1930's.
My rant could have probably done as well with out it.

I'll make it easy. I consider the right to redress grievances with
our government far more important than whatever the protesters are
complaining about. Losing that is what worries me.



I just went out into the Inter Webs for more recent
reportage and it seems that, yes, Fed agents are involving
themselves outside protection of Federal facilities.

I am not an attorney but that seems a real reach to me and
it's a bad idea generally even if there's some legal
loophole which allows it.

In short you make a good point if that's true. Thanks.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 19:12:29 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

I just went out into the Inter Webs for more recent
reportage and it seems that, yes, Fed agents are involving
themselves outside protection of Federal facilities.

Excellent. Now, ask yourself why President Trump would order units of
the Customs and Border Protection and probably some other federal
agencies to break up a mostly peaceful demonstration? He is
theoretically the head of the US military. I suspect that his
political advisors suggested that it might be over-reacting.

He could have declared martial law and activated the National Guard:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Guard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Warner_National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for _Fiscal_Year_2007
Expansion of the President's power to declare martial
law under revisions to the Insurrection Act, and take
charge of United States National Guard troops without
state governor authorization when public order has
been lost and the state and its constituted authorities
cannot enforce the law (amended in 2008 by H.R.4986
SEC.1068[3]).
I was wrong. He doesn't need the governors invitation to activate the
National Guard. However, losing control of a small part of Portland
for 52 days doesn't exactly look like the State of Oregon has lost
control. He could have declared martial law and brought in the
regular army or army reserve. Plenty of military bases nearby:
http://www.militarybases.us/bases-in-the-state-of-oregon/

Instead, President Trump sends what appears to be a mixed bag of
federal "police" who's first duty is to do everything possible to
avoid being identified (allegedly to prevent doxxing). I can see
hiding one's name but hiding the name of the federal agency doing the
arrests is a bit of a stretch. So, why did he deploy his "police"?
Possibly because all the other agencies may have told him that they
would refuse to follow his orders. Why the camouflage uniform?
Possibly because the officers regular uniform has the agency name on
the back and on various patches.

I am not an attorney but that seems a real reach to me and
it's a bad idea generally even if there's some legal
loophole which allows it.

At some time in the future, the US will need to deal with the issue of
states rights vs federal control. So far, the feds are winning.

In short you make a good point if that's true. Thanks.

Y'er welcome. This may be a Usenet first. A few people bother to
research topics under discussion. Very few people change their minds
as a result of a Usenet discussion. Even fewer will admit to changing
their minds. Nicely done and thanks.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 21:10:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 19:12:29 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

I just went out into the Inter Webs for more recent
reportage and it seems that, yes, Fed agents are involving
themselves outside protection of Federal facilities.

Excellent. Now, ask yourself why President Trump would order units of
the Customs and Border Protection and probably some other federal
agencies to break up a mostly peaceful demonstration? He is
theoretically the head of the US military. I suspect that his
political advisors suggested that it might be over-reacting.

I believe that there is a law,
United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat.
152) signed on June 18, 1878
specifically forbidding the U.S. Army from being used to enforce
domestic policy in the U.S.?

" ...it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the
United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of
executing the laws..."


He could have declared martial law and activated the National Guard:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Guard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Warner_National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for _Fiscal_Year_2007
Expansion of the President's power to declare martial
law under revisions to the Insurrection Act, and take
charge of United States National Guard troops without
state governor authorization when public order has
been lost and the state and its constituted authorities
cannot enforce the law (amended in 2008 by H.R.4986
SEC.1068[3]).
I was wrong. He doesn't need the governors invitation to activate the
National Guard. However, losing control of a small part of Portland
for 52 days doesn't exactly look like the State of Oregon has lost
control. He could have declared martial law and brought in the
regular army or army reserve. Plenty of military bases nearby:
http://www.militarybases.us/bases-in-the-state-of-oregon/

Instead, President Trump sends what appears to be a mixed bag of
federal "police" who's first duty is to do everything possible to
avoid being identified (allegedly to prevent doxxing). I can see
hiding one's name but hiding the name of the federal agency doing the
arrests is a bit of a stretch. So, why did he deploy his "police"?
Possibly because all the other agencies may have told him that they
would refuse to follow his orders. Why the camouflage uniform?
Possibly because the officers regular uniform has the agency name on
the back and on various patches.

I am not an attorney but that seems a real reach to me and
it's a bad idea generally even if there's some legal
loophole which allows it.

At some time in the future, the US will need to deal with the issue of
states rights vs federal control. So far, the feds are winning.

In short you make a good point if that's true. Thanks.

Y'er welcome. This may be a Usenet first. A few people bother to
research topics under discussion. Very few people change their minds
as a result of a Usenet discussion. Even fewer will admit to changing
their minds. Nicely done and thanks.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, 20 July 2020 00:10:49 UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Snipped
At some time in the future, the US will need to deal with the issue of
states rights vs federal control. So far, the feds are winning.
Snipped

Didn't that happen from 1860 to 1865?

Cheers

On 7/19/2020 10:57 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Unfortunately, I see another problem. Trump is doing everything he
can to destroy federal agencies tasked with fighting the pandemic.
Originally, this was attributed to his desire to hide evidence of
Republican ineptitude at fighting the pandemic so that he would be
re-elected. However, he's not acting like he's campaigning for
office, but more like an aspiring dictator in the 1930's style[1], or
maybe the South American style. Meanwhile, the Democrats seem to be
doing next to nothing in terms of campaigning, which suggests that
they don't really want to be in charge of dealing with the pandemic
problem. If true, that gives Trump a defacto win in the next
election. He appears to be already acting the part.

Biden is doing exactly what he should be doing.

Lay low for now, and let Trump be Trump. Defund the WHO durng the
pandemic. Prevent hospitals from sharing Covid-19 data with the CDC.
Pardon criminals. Lie about the extent of the pandemic. Undo
environmental regulations. Promote racism. Bail out big corporations
while screwing over small businesses. Attacking schools and teachers.
Enlist idiot governors in Florida and Georgia to try to downplay the
pandemic.

All things that Trump's low-information voter base loves, but that
normal Republicans abhor. As Trump disenfranchises suburban White
voters, it's best for Biden to just let Trump continue shooting himself
in the foot.

On 7/19/2020 1:41 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

A normal president would talk to justice about increasing the number of US Marshals to protect federal court property or talk to DHS/FPS to work with PPB to coordinate protection of federal court property -- build coalitions, put out fires, etc., etc. Not Trump. Send storm troopers with zero local coordination and throw gallons of gas on fire for tough talk and photo op in the Rose Garden. Walk to church, waive bible upside down then go play 18 holes -- maybe throw in some COVID-19 denial. Rinse lather repeat. It's exhausting.

Trumps hard-core base loves all this. Hopefully there aren't enough
Covidiots to get him re-elected.

On 7/19/2020 9:10 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 19:12:29 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

I just went out into the Inter Webs for more recent
reportage and it seems that, yes, Fed agents are involving
themselves outside protection of Federal facilities.

Excellent. Now, ask yourself why President Trump would order units of
the Customs and Border Protection and probably some other federal
agencies to break up a mostly peaceful demonstration?

Trump knows that he has to shore up his ever-shrinking base of support.
They eat this kind of thing up.