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  #81  
Old April 29th 19, 03:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,800
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On 2019-04-29 00:37, James wrote:
On 28/4/19 12:12 am, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-26 08:33, AMuzi wrote:



That's true but how different to the rider from a broken chain,
driveshaft, crank or pedal?



Chains usually do not snap without some serious lack of maintenance or
running them way past prime. Never heard of a driveshaft break except
once on a heavy vehicle (bus). Belts usually snap out of the blue.


Out cycling one day I came upon a Ford F150 or F250 perhaps, where the
driver had come to a stop at a side road to my left. Before I rode in
front, the driver revved the engine and, I assume, dumped the clutch.
There was a bang and ting ting ting sound, as the broken drive shaft
continued to spin while the vehicle remained practically stationary.

I know of a front wheel drive vehicle that suffered a broken drive shaft.

I broke a shaft in a gearbox once. It's a shaft. It broke.


The only time I heard that about a car was a coworker who torqued off
the drive shaft on a VW microbus. He had put a Chevy V8 engine in it ...

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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  #82  
Old April 29th 19, 05:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,260
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On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 9:11:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/26/2019 10:40 AM, Joerg wrote:
Beats
me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

The most likely reason is because there isn't a very large market for
such things. Lets see... you are 1.


Sometimes a market needs to be awakened first. Many times I heard people
say "I had to carry this, that and the other thing so I used the car".
Well, I don't, which is why my bikes see 2-3x the mileage of my car.


And so hundreds of your neighbors now have battle-tank bicycles and have
stopped driving their cars? ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski


Frank, it is rather surprising that so many young people do have bike that are half way between a touring bike and a road bike. Racks and very large equipment bags. And since they are in their 20's - early 40's they still pass me on the climbs like that.
  #83  
Old April 29th 19, 06:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,260
Default Belt drive

On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 4:12:39 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote:
My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is
building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact
length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive
to replace.

So, why?


Dad gave him too much money :-)

Now, a shaft drive, that would be great.


Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been
tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I
think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would
mitigate that?


Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW.
That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight
doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just
want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the
chain every 50 miles.

It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure
something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and
central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build
it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy
loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore.


Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I
clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew
though the drive chain.


I'd be careful ...

https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo
Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a
LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to
get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline
powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all,
weight doesn't matter to you.


Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle
that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they
generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of
breakdowns. I happen to be one of those.

The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time
were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have
thorn-resistant tubes et cetera.

But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had
a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in
20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a
time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it.



No flats in 20 years?


I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire
to be a "breakdown" or "came loose"
--
cheers,

John B.


Yesterday I again hit something that looked like a break in the asphalt that had something really sharp in it and I again was treated so some sprayed tire sealant without getting a flat.

My overall impressions of tubeless tires is pretty positive. They are a little messy to put on and insert the sealant but you don't have to worry about anything but a REALLY large hole. And I've never had a flat like that on a tire that wasn't worn completely out.
  #84  
Old April 29th 19, 06:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 4,406
Default Belt drive

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 6:19:42 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 09:51:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-28 08:58, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/28/2019 9:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-27 15:51, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:54:56 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:24, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 15:48, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:

[...]



It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to
figure something
out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB
and central-battery
powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build
it all myself. Beats
me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

Probably because if your using the bike differently to
others, my commute
bike though a hardtail is closer to that set up with
panniers and a barbag
as I found the weight on the rear effected the
handling though with the
weight spread even fully Laden the bike can be some
fun in the woods if one
wants.

But for the Nice MTB I don’t need to take so much gear
and as a leisure
rather than transport it’s a much nicer ride unladen.


Even during fun rides I carry a full tool kit, a big
lock, some spare
parts and most of all water. The water alone can be
north of a gallon in
summer because many MTB trails have no opportunity to
refill (safely).

How often or likely is a full tool kit needed?
Personally I do take some
Allen keys but can’t remember the last time they where
needed.


You could have asked the guy whose shifter cable snapped
and the limit
screws had Allen heads so were not adjustable via Swiss
Army knife.

Err... the five Allan wrenches that I carry allow me to
tighten or
loosen every threaded fastener on the bike and weigh
considerably less
than a "Swiss Army Knife". ...


If you have the right size among them. I like to have it
all. Now in the shape of a Crankbrothers M19 tool which ...
drum roll ... even contains a chain breaker.

https://www.crankbrothers.com/products/m19

Plus a Swiss Army knife. Always. And a first aid kit. And a
lock. And ...


... But of course I can't fight off a
raging
mountain lion with my Allan wrench....


Or a rattlesnake. The other shortcoming of Allen wrenches is
that they do not have a bottle opener or corkscrew. They
also lack a can opener, for example, if you like to have
anchovies on your sandwich.


You can't foresee every potential hazard. Ride with a snake bite kit,
Narcan, Cipro, a pistol, flares, iodine tablets? Sheesh I don't.



I know I should have added a smiley.


... As the
great sage Willie Dixon wrote about a $50 bill, "Grant will get you out
of whatever you're in". Traveling light works for me, YMMV.


That part of my baggage is for beer. Strictly beer. And maybe a pretzel
with Obatzda or at least some melted cheese.

So you are a lush that can't function for even a short time without a
drink?
--
cheers,

John B.


The beer is probably one of the main reasons he needs so much water.

Cheers
  #85  
Old April 29th 19, 06:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,260
Default Belt drive

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 4:46:22 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 12:24:19 AM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:

How often or likely is a full tool kit needed?


My tool kit weighs 68 grammes. With it I can do everything on the bike that doesn't require a large specialist tool. Never been called on with my current bike, which celebrated it's tenth birthday this year.

Back home each of my bikes has full toolkit of its own, kept near it in a wheeled aluminium pilot's case. I open the relevant case once a year when the bike is serviced.

Bike frames and components are much superior today to what they were a generation ago, say in 1990, or perhaps it is just that I've been buying better bikes over time, with more knowledge and experience of what to look for and specify.

Andre Jute
Who's a curmudgeon, then?


I keep wondering what in the hell you people are doing. I have one or two innertubes, the plastic tire irons, the CO2 inflators with two cylinders and a multitool in a pack and have weighed THREE of them and they are all 2 lbs.
  #86  
Old April 29th 19, 06:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,800
Default Belt drive

On 2019-04-28 15:24, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:55:32 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-27 15:33, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:27:33 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:20, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:40:39 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:27, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 12:22:41 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


[...]


It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads.
Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore.

The carbon-fiber bicycles are so popular is because they are light :-)

I doubt that marketing a bike because it is heavier than all the rest
would be a real smart marketing move :-)


No, it has to be marketed as sturdier than the others. That gets
customers. Why do you think heavy SUVs sell so well in some areas?

The reason that USV's were invented was to circumvent U.S.
regulations about fuel economy (if I remember correctly). By building
a vehicle on a truck chassis and classifying it as a truck the fuel
consumption limits for automobiles didn't apply.


That sounds like fake news. My SUV is classified as a passenger vehicle,
else it would require a different kind of license plate like the pickup
truck of a neighbor does. He also has to pay more tax on it.

No it isn't. I was alive and well when the SUV's were "invented" and
it was common knowledge then. the first vehicle stated to be a SYV
seems to have been the International Harvester Travelall in 1956
(credited as being the first full-size SUV).

Even the Wiki seems to know why the term and model came about,
"For example, Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) regulations
previously included "permit greater cargo-carrying capacity than
passenger carrying volume" in the definition for trucks, resulting in
SUVs being classified as light trucks.

This classification as trucks allowed SUVs to be regulated less
strictly than passenger cars under the Energy Policy and Conservation
Act for fuel economy, and the Clean Air Act for emissions.

Even a casual look would have let you in on the secret .


Why do you think the Ford Ranger is out of favor? AFAIK that size does
not fall under CAFE loophole and that's the size of many modern SUV
(such as mine).


The point is that you believed that my statement that SUV's evolved to
avoid fuel consumption laws was incorrect and I proved that what I
said was correct.

Now you are off on a tangent about Fords. Which have nothing to do
with the subject... that you didn't know why SUV's originally came
about haven't even tried to find out before branding my true
statement as false news.



According to information such as this SUVs are _not_ exempt from CAFE:

https://energyathaas.wordpress.com/2...asier-to-meet/

Personal truck-style vehicles are allowed higher values but they are not
exempt.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #87  
Old April 29th 19, 06:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 4,406
Default Belt drive

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 10:03:49 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 2:26:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:

Chains usually do not snap without some serious lack of maintenance or
running them way past prime. Never heard of a driveshaft break except
once on a heavy vehicle (bus). Belts usually snap out of the blue.


I've been on two rides where bicycle chains broke. One was mine. Hit a small bump/curb on the trail when crossing a street and the chain jumped off its cogs/pulleys/rings and got lodged somehow and it broke when I started pedaling again. Used the chain tool to remove the broken link and put in one of the quick links to reconnect everything. Other time was on a group ride and one of the riders broke his chain. I used my chain tool to remove the broken link and gave him my quick link to put everything back together. Took a few minutes on the side of the road to get everything working again. But it was all resolved successfully. So people who think chains don't break on rides are living in some make believe fantasy land.


I broke one on a mountain bike ride when I missed a sudden shift to the granny.
My wife cracked one quick link a couple years ago. I remember one club ride
where someone broke a chain.

So I can't say chains don't break. But I can say that those are the only
incidents I remember since 1972, when I started adult riding. That includes
many hundreds of club rides with anywhere from three to a couple dozen people.
That includes my decades of running, then sagging a fair-sized century ride.
(We had up to 600 riders.)

So I'm talking about 3 chains in hundreds of thousands of rider miles, I'm sure. It's not a common event.

- Frank Krygowski


I had a really weird mishap with my original Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle back in the 1980s. I was sprinting along a busy road in Toronto Canada and hit a short piece of metal rod. I hit the rod on the end and it flipped up, struck my chain and drove the rivet part way out so that it woudldn't clear the front derailleur. I did not have a chain breaker that day but I was still able to ride the bicycle the few remaining miles home by pushing down on the one pedal and then back pedaling enough to pedal forward again = like a push then pull system.

Now the multi-tools re so small that you don't need to carry a spare chain breaker as that tool is part of the multi-tool. Indeed, if one is concerned to shave the last few grams from such a tool then they can remove any of the tools they don't need/want.

Cheers
  #88  
Old April 29th 19, 06:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,260
Default Belt drive

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 7:46:37 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote:
My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is
building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact
length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive
to replace.

So, why?


Dad gave him too much money :-)

Now, a shaft drive, that would be great.


Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been
tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I
think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would
mitigate that?


Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW.
That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight
doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just
want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the
chain every 50 miles.

It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure
something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and
central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build
it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy
loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore..


Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I
clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew
though the drive chain.


I'd be careful ...

https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo
Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a
LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to
get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline
powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all,
weight doesn't matter to you.


Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle
that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they
generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of
breakdowns. I happen to be one of those.

The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time
were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have
thorn-resistant tubes et cetera.

But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had
a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in
20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a
time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it.


No flats in 20 years?

I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire
to be a "breakdown" or "came loose"

A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of
the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles.

But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a
flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the
old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools. Fix it with
your bare hands.



Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be
done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


I so not believe one in a hundred people could mount a Gatorskin. But I'm pretty much sold on tubeless now and they can usually be mounted by hand. And you don't have to dismount them anywhere but to replace them after they're worn out.
  #90  
Old April 29th 19, 07:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,283
Default Belt drive

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 1:10:20 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 10:03:49 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 2:26:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:

Chains usually do not snap without some serious lack of maintenance or
running them way past prime. Never heard of a driveshaft break except
once on a heavy vehicle (bus). Belts usually snap out of the blue.


I've been on two rides where bicycle chains broke. One was mine. Hit a small bump/curb on the trail when crossing a street and the chain jumped off its cogs/pulleys/rings and got lodged somehow and it broke when I started pedaling again. Used the chain tool to remove the broken link and put in one of the quick links to reconnect everything. Other time was on a group ride and one of the riders broke his chain. I used my chain tool to remove the broken link and gave him my quick link to put everything back together. Took a few minutes on the side of the road to get everything working again. But it was all resolved successfully. So people who think chains don't break on rides are living in some make believe fantasy land.


I broke one on a mountain bike ride when I missed a sudden shift to the granny.
My wife cracked one quick link a couple years ago. I remember one club ride
where someone broke a chain.

So I can't say chains don't break. But I can say that those are the only
incidents I remember since 1972, when I started adult riding. That includes
many hundreds of club rides with anywhere from three to a couple dozen people.
That includes my decades of running, then sagging a fair-sized century ride.
(We had up to 600 riders.)

So I'm talking about 3 chains in hundreds of thousands of rider miles, I'm sure. It's not a common event.

- Frank Krygowski


I had a really weird mishap with my original Dura Ace AX equipped bicycle back in the 1980s. I was sprinting along a busy road in Toronto Canada and hit a short piece of metal rod. I hit the rod on the end and it flipped up, struck my chain and drove the rivet part way out so that it woudldn't clear the front derailleur. I did not have a chain breaker that day but I was still able to ride the bicycle the few remaining miles home by pushing down on the one pedal and then back pedaling enough to pedal forward again = like a push then pull system.

Now the multi-tools re so small that you don't need to carry a spare chain breaker as that tool is part of the multi-tool. Indeed, if one is concerned to shave the last few grams from such a tool then they can remove any of the tools they don't need/want.


That reminded me of one other broken chain story. I wasn't there, at the time.
But our family was biking out to a state park for camping, and were meeting
another bicycling family - actually, the guy owned a bike shop.

They arrived a bit behind schedule. He was towing his younger daughter in a
trailer. He said that first, he stopped because he found a pair of vise grips
in the road. A while after that, his chain partially separated at a link. (I
don't know if he missed a front shift or what.) Anyway, he was quite pleased
because he was able to use the newly found vise grips to get the chain back
together.

So I guess that's four incidents I've encountered in 48 years of my adult
riding. (I'll count that one because we were sort of on the same ride.)

- Frank Krygowski
 




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