A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

More on Slack Spokes



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 18th 19, 12:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default More on Slack Spokes

I questioned the Chinese wheel manufacturer about the spoke length he was using and essentially all of the front spokes and the off-side radial spokes on the rear wheel were supposed to be 253 mm and the 2 cross spokes a little longer.

I pulled the tubeless wheel out of the bike and measured them. These are 55 mm deep aero section. Taking actual measurements off of the wheels as it sits, true and round, the spokes are all almost bottomed out and the measurement is 10 mm less than their specifications. The spoke tension is so low that the spokes barely ring when you strike them with the spoke key.

Then I pulled the clincher out of the Pinarello and measure it. These are the 50 mm aero rims. These in fact DID measure 253 mm on the same spokes.

The hubs are identical.

So somehow they've gotten the wrong data on the hubs they are using for the 55 mm and have specified 10 mm longer spokes than are correct.

In strong gusty side winds the wheelset becomes almost unrideable. I can deal with it up to about 32 mph but above that the course can change too rapidly and dramatically to correct for.

I am in the process of working with the manufacturer to see if we can correct this. If I can get him to send me the correct length spokes I can set everything up properly.

At which point I can tell Frank, "I told you so."
Ads
  #2  
Old July 18th 19, 01:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,093
Default More on Slack Spokes

The length of spokes has little to do with tension; it's all about how tightly you do them up.

Sometimes, I use spokes that are a couple or three mm too long so that interference between the tops of the nipple threads and the unthreaded shank of the spoke serves as a mechanical threadlocker. This can keep non-drive side spokes in highly dished wheels from unscrewing, without resort to adhesives that complicate later service.

If your spokes are so overlong that you don't have several intact threads engaged when you reach your desired tension, that's a reason to switch to shorter spokes. But if you don't have more than 3mm of spoke thread poking out the back of the nipple, you haven't come close to using up your leeway.

In the case of janky plastic rims from anonymous Chinese manufacturers, the concern would not be proper spoke length, but whether the rims can tolerate normal operating tension. You may be set to discover why the manufacturer left your wheels so loose to begin with.
  #3  
Old July 18th 19, 02:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default More on Slack Spokes

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 5:47:23 PM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
The length of spokes has little to do with tension; it's all about how tightly you do them up.

Sometimes, I use spokes that are a couple or three mm too long so that interference between the tops of the nipple threads and the unthreaded shank of the spoke serves as a mechanical threadlocker. This can keep non-drive side spokes in highly dished wheels from unscrewing, without resort to adhesives that complicate later service.

If your spokes are so overlong that you don't have several intact threads engaged when you reach your desired tension, that's a reason to switch to shorter spokes. But if you don't have more than 3mm of spoke thread poking out the back of the nipple, you haven't come close to using up your leeway..

In the case of janky plastic rims from anonymous Chinese manufacturers, the concern would not be proper spoke length, but whether the rims can tolerate normal operating tension. You may be set to discover why the manufacturer left your wheels so loose to begin with.


Janky is such a harsh term! We call it a value rim! I think Tom said he bottomed out the spokes. Maybe they only have a few threads to save money. Who knows.

-- Jay Beattie.



-- Jay Beattie.
  #4  
Old July 18th 19, 04:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,153
Default More on Slack Spokes

On 18/7/19 10:47 am, Chalo wrote:
The length of spokes has little to do with tension; it's all about
how tightly you do them up.


10mm too long is about the length of the threaded section of the spoke.

--
JS
  #5  
Old July 18th 19, 10:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default More on Slack Spokes

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 6:48:14 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 5:47:23 PM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
The length of spokes has little to do with tension; it's all about how tightly you do them up.

Sometimes, I use spokes that are a couple or three mm too long so that interference between the tops of the nipple threads and the unthreaded shank of the spoke serves as a mechanical threadlocker. This can keep non-drive side spokes in highly dished wheels from unscrewing, without resort to adhesives that complicate later service.

If your spokes are so overlong that you don't have several intact threads engaged when you reach your desired tension, that's a reason to switch to shorter spokes. But if you don't have more than 3mm of spoke thread poking out the back of the nipple, you haven't come close to using up your leeway.

In the case of janky plastic rims from anonymous Chinese manufacturers, the concern would not be proper spoke length, but whether the rims can tolerate normal operating tension. You may be set to discover why the manufacturer left your wheels so loose to begin with.


Janky is such a harsh term! We call it a value rim! I think Tom said he bottomed out the spokes. Maybe they only have a few threads to save money.. Who knows.


1. In the process of testing carbon handlebars some GCN affiliate was demonstrating how the handlebars could have internal voids leading to failures of the handlebar. Then he just happened to show cross sections of the Chinese rims and the Enve American rims of he same type. The Enve had several voids showing. What would lead you to believe that Made in China would automatically mean less professional workmanship when most carbon fiber parts are being presently made in China? I bought a Look handlebar/stem one piece for 12% of the cost simply because it didn't have the Look decals on it.

2. I have stated in many postings that the spokes were bottoming out in the nipples. In what universe do you suppose Chalo lives in which I have all of the proper wheel building tools and skills and it wouldn't occur to me to tighten the spokes up? I have said here many times that I can build an aluminum wheels and true it in a half hour. But he wants to tell me about wheel building?
  #6  
Old July 18th 19, 10:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default More on Slack Spokes

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 8:03:47 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 18/7/19 10:47 am, Chalo wrote:
The length of spokes has little to do with tension; it's all about
how tightly you do them up.


10mm too long is about the length of the threaded section of the spoke.

--
JS


You hit the nail on the head. I would guess that there is a couple of mm of threads sticking out on the inside. You can do that with deep aero wheels without any problems but you can't do that with an old box section rim.
  #7  
Old July 18th 19, 11:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,093
Default More on Slack Spokes

Spokes don't "bottom" when tightened, because there is no shoulder for them to bottom against. As I said before, when you run out of thread, the thread in the bike begins to interfere with the unthreaded shank of the spoke. But the nipple can be tightened further.

I intentionally use such interference to help prevent spoke loosening in hub motor wheels fitted to heavy pedicabs.
  #8  
Old July 19th 19, 12:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default More on Slack Spokes

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:13:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 6:48:14 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 5:47:23 PM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
The length of spokes has little to do with tension; it's all about how tightly you do them up.

Sometimes, I use spokes that are a couple or three mm too long so that interference between the tops of the nipple threads and the unthreaded shank of the spoke serves as a mechanical threadlocker. This can keep non-drive side spokes in highly dished wheels from unscrewing, without resort to adhesives that complicate later service.

If your spokes are so overlong that you don't have several intact threads engaged when you reach your desired tension, that's a reason to switch to shorter spokes. But if you don't have more than 3mm of spoke thread poking out the back of the nipple, you haven't come close to using up your leeway.

In the case of janky plastic rims from anonymous Chinese manufacturers, the concern would not be proper spoke length, but whether the rims can tolerate normal operating tension. You may be set to discover why the manufacturer left your wheels so loose to begin with.


Janky is such a harsh term! We call it a value rim! I think Tom said he bottomed out the spokes. Maybe they only have a few threads to save money. Who knows.


1. In the process of testing carbon handlebars some GCN affiliate was demonstrating how the handlebars could have internal voids leading to failures of the handlebar. Then he just happened to show cross sections of the Chinese rims and the Enve American rims of he same type. The Enve had several voids showing. What would lead you to believe that Made in China would automatically mean less professional workmanship when most carbon fiber parts are being presently made in China? I bought a Look handlebar/stem one piece for 12% of the cost simply because it didn't have the Look decals on it.

2. I have stated in many postings that the spokes were bottoming out in the nipples. In what universe do you suppose Chalo lives in which I have all of the proper wheel building tools and skills and it wouldn't occur to me to tighten the spokes up? I have said here many times that I can build an aluminum wheels and true it in a half hour. But he wants to tell me about wheel building?


I see... you the expert wheel builder are riding around on a cheap
pair of Chinese made wheels with loose spokes... and whining about it.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #9  
Old July 19th 19, 01:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default More on Slack Spokes

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:37:41 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
wrote:

Spokes don't "bottom" when tightened, because there is no shoulder for them to bottom against. As I said before, when you run out of thread, the thread in the bike begins to interfere with the unthreaded shank of the spoke. But the nipple can be tightened further.


The term "bottom out", as used in most trades, generally means there
are no more threads and you can't screw it any further. If you screw a
nut on a bolt that is threaded half way down the shank eventually you
will reach a point there aren't any more threads and you can't turn
the nut any more, i.e., the threads bottomed out.
It is generally a bad thing as it does tend to damage the threads and
thus weaken the bolt/nut joint.


I intentionally use such interference to help prevent spoke loosening in hub motor wheels fitted to heavy pedicabs.

--
cheers,

John B.

  #10  
Old July 19th 19, 01:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default More on Slack Spokes

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 4:16:18 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:13:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 6:48:14 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 5:47:23 PM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
The length of spokes has little to do with tension; it's all about how tightly you do them up.

Sometimes, I use spokes that are a couple or three mm too long so that interference between the tops of the nipple threads and the unthreaded shank of the spoke serves as a mechanical threadlocker. This can keep non-drive side spokes in highly dished wheels from unscrewing, without resort to adhesives that complicate later service.

If your spokes are so overlong that you don't have several intact threads engaged when you reach your desired tension, that's a reason to switch to shorter spokes. But if you don't have more than 3mm of spoke thread poking out the back of the nipple, you haven't come close to using up your leeway.

In the case of janky plastic rims from anonymous Chinese manufacturers, the concern would not be proper spoke length, but whether the rims can tolerate normal operating tension. You may be set to discover why the manufacturer left your wheels so loose to begin with.

Janky is such a harsh term! We call it a value rim! I think Tom said he bottomed out the spokes. Maybe they only have a few threads to save money. Who knows.


1. In the process of testing carbon handlebars some GCN affiliate was demonstrating how the handlebars could have internal voids leading to failures of the handlebar. Then he just happened to show cross sections of the Chinese rims and the Enve American rims of he same type. The Enve had several voids showing. What would lead you to believe that Made in China would automatically mean less professional workmanship when most carbon fiber parts are being presently made in China? I bought a Look handlebar/stem one piece for 12% of the cost simply because it didn't have the Look decals on it.

2. I have stated in many postings that the spokes were bottoming out in the nipples. In what universe do you suppose Chalo lives in which I have all of the proper wheel building tools and skills and it wouldn't occur to me to tighten the spokes up? I have said here many times that I can build an aluminum wheels and true it in a half hour. But he wants to tell me about wheel building?


I see... you the expert wheel builder are riding around on a cheap
pair of Chinese made wheels with loose spokes... and whining about it.


If my spokes were rattling, I'd whine about it! And then I'd tighten the spokes or dump the wheel -- but I'd whine about it first. You NEVER want to miss an opportunity to whine.

So while I'm at it, I just replaced my old Giro Code SPD/MTB commuter shoes with a new pair of Sidis that hurt my feet damn it! I should have bought three pairs of the Codes. They were dirt cheap on sale at Nashbar six or seven years ago. The heel cup padding evaporated and the ratchets have been replaced a few times, but they are still wearable and super comfortable. I just got sucked into a Sidi sale at Western Bikeworks. Its the shiny object syndrome. I hope they break in.

-- Jay Beattie.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering Tom Kunich[_5_] Techniques 29 July 13th 19 11:40 PM
new chain, slack Emanuel Berg[_2_] Techniques 86 February 4th 18 12:32 PM
OBree uses a slack chain someone Techniques 68 September 16th 09 02:19 AM
OBree uses a slack chain Fred Fredburger[_6_] Racing 0 September 15th 09 08:09 PM
Chain side slack Pat and Bob Chambers UK 1 September 8th 05 11:37 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.