OT Flame War

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Mark Leuck wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

AFP wire service published estimates of 2 million civilian deaths in
South Vietnam, 2 million civilian deaths in North Vietnam, and 1.1
Vietnamese military deaths for the war, for a total of 5.1 million. I
deliberately used very conservative numbers.

--
Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon and Pedant


Where is the evidence the US killed 2 to 3 million people? You appear
to
have deliberately not posted that[.]

Would all those people have died in the Vietnam War if the United States
had not waged it?

The above post by Mr. Leuck has to be one of the least logical I have
ever seen.


Least logical? You stated the US "killed" 2 to 3 million not that 5.1
million died[.]

Where exactly did you pull the 2-3 figure million from? Now you fall
back on
a "well nobody would have died if we hadn't been there" so I guess one
has
to be very specific when responding to your flippant statements so I'll
try
again[.]

How many were killed by US soldiers [1] ?

[1] shot, knifed, bombed, beaten, poisoned etc[.]

Also the numbers you posted may not be conservative after all[.]

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm

The numbers reported by AFP were for war related casualties. DUH!

Link?

Mark Leuck wrote:

Link?

Belt.

--
Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon and Pedant

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Mark Leuck wrote:

Link?

Belt.

--
Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon and Pedant

I thought that would be the answer

On 20 Oct 2004 01:26:47 GMT, othanks (James S. Prine)
wrote:

I don't know about you, but I respect any individual who earns their wings as a
fighter pilot. Clearly, Bush did that.

Just a pity he took all that expensive training and went AWOL, really
gd&r

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

James S. Prine wrote:

I don't know about you, but I respect any individual who earns their wings as a
fighter pilot.

I may well respect them as a capable fighter pilot, but that doesn't
mean they'll be any good as a US president.

Mr. Kerry's discharge?

Why should anyone care? The question is who will do the presidential
job more capably. What either of them did in what amounts to a former
job in a former life is hardly the point.

"Colonel David Crockett...would *not* have supported Kerry."

And how is what Davy Crockett might have thought were he alive today in
any way relevant to the current US? If I was voting in that election
I'd be more concerned about whether unaccountable corporate lobby groups
with a lot to gain by supporting the winner would support one side or
the other than someone who's been dead a long time.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Just a pity he took all that expensive training and went AWOL, really
gd&r

I tend to agree. I've read a lot of information on this matter...much of it
bogus and clearly the work of partisan spinmeisters on both sides of the aisle,
but Bush *did* authorize release of his entire military record and it's open to
scrutiny.

From what I've seen, there is no indication that Bush actually went 'AWOL',
there were some unusual events that transpired but, comparing Bush and others
in service at that time, his service wasn't at all that unusual. There is a
lot of controversy surrounding the 'fact' that he 'deliberately dodged a flight
physical so the medics wouldn't find his system saturated with cocaine', etc.,
perusal of his service record shows that, during that time, he wasn't assigned
to a flying slot and consequently a flight physical wasn't required anyway.

There's a *lot* of material; YMMV.


James S. Prine

"Colonel David Crockett...would *not* have supported Kerry."

http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

James S. Prine wrote:

I tend to agree. I've read a lot of information on this
matter...much of it bogus and clearly the work of partisan
spinmeisters on both sides of the aisle, but Bush *did* authorize
release of his entire military record and it's open to scrutiny.

Didn't a considerable quantity of his service record go, er, "missing",
though?

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

I may well respect them as a capable fighter pilot, but that doesn't
mean they'll be any good as a US president.

Agreed. And a self-proclaimed war criminal with what appear to be specious
wartime medals, who never served more than 3 months in combat (out of the 12
months he'd volunteered for), who returned to his nation and became a
celebrated traitor, is probably a lot *less* capable of serving as President.

Why should anyone care?

It's the law. If Kerry *did* receive a dishonorable discharge...and a lot of
information is surfacing that he probably did...then he cannot hold any public
office, period.

The question is who will do the presidential
job more capably.

Agreed. Bush has shown, through recent history, that he's done a remarkable
job. Kerry's main claims the past twenty years in Congress has been lackluster
performance, at best. His chief qualification seems to be that, no matter what
Bush has done, *he* can do it better, without making any enemies, and without
his efforts costing anyone anything. He hasn't yet claimed the ability to
raise the dead...but I expect that next g.

What either of them did in what amounts to a former
job in a former life is hardly the point.

I disagree. In 1993, Kerry went to Vietnam...again...and clearly did his best
to bury (an appropriate term) the U.S. POW/MIA issue so he could 'normalize'
U.S. relations with Vietnam. His actions were extraordinary, to say the least,
and he has never satisfactorily explained why he had so many documents
shredded. He claimed that the originals had already been shipped to archives,
but that has been debunked. It is no secret that Kerry's cousin was the
recipient of a billion-dollar construction contract with the Vietnamese
government. I don't like Bush, but I *despise* Kerry for what he's done.

And how is what Davy Crockett might have thought were he alive today in
any way relevant to the current US?

The same might be said for your opinion...from your email address you aren't an
American and you have no say in who we vote for (or against), so your relevancy
on the issue is somewhat suspect. But I used Crockett as an example, because
Crockett and his comrades-in-arms at the Alamo chose to fight to the death
against overwhelming odds...against an egotistical power-mad dictator...the
Kerry of 1836.


James S. Prine

"Colonel David Crockett...would *not* have supported Kerry."

http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

Edward Dolan wrote:


...
I do not think the Dems could possibly have come up with a worse
candidate. Even the redoubtable Mr. Sherman is not going to vote for
him. Instead he is going to throw his vote away on another supreme
asshole, Ralph Nader.

The Democrats could well have found someone worse: Zell Miller.


Zell Miller is representative of the way the Democrats used to be in the
good old days. Now even he is going to vote for Bush because Kerry is
such a supreme jackass.

In the "good old days", the Democrats were racist segregationists. Is that
what you approve of, Mr. Dolan.

It always amuses me greatly that northerners like Mr. Sherman think
themselves somehow superior to southerners because they effect a holier than
thou attitude about racial matters. Maybe the southerners knew a thing or
two about racial matters that we northerners do not even have a clue about.
Blacks have suffered perhaps more in the north than they ever did in the
south.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
James S. Prine wrote:

And what revisionist right-wing website did you get this from?


Perhaps if you sought treatment for your chronic rectocranial inversion
problem, you would see that Kerry is already broadcasting most of the
material
I've described here. He has yet to sign Form 180, and 94 pages of his
military
records are still unavailable. Not right-wing rhetoric, but demonstrable
fact.

Kerry's colleagues who served with him in Vietnam (aside from the
severely
injured and the killed in action, only Kerry left his tour early...fact),
repeatedly describe him in negative ways...and many of them are long-time
Democrats who support the Democratic Party but sincerely detest Kerry
himself.


All of these lies could be debunked here, but it is rather pointless,
since most already know better, and there is not much hope for those who
do not.

This is what liberal scoundrels like Mr. Sherman always do. They accuse
others of lying when of course it is they who are doing all the lying. 3
purple hearts and not a day in the hospital. Draw your own coclusion as to
who is lying and behaving lie a scoundrel.

LOL...you sneer at people being bigoted and close-minded, yet you
continually
fail to see that the worst offender here...is you, in that regard. And,
as for
'lies', Kerry's own sworn statements are replete with them...remember his
infamous 'secret mission into Cambodia on Christmas Eve, '68? Debunked
and
proven to be a lie. How he complained to the Fulbright Committee about
his
boat only being equipped with .50 caliber machine guns...his 'sole
weapons',
when the boats were also equipped with small arms and M-60 machine guns?
No,
please don't let the facts get in the way of your left-wing venom


The quoted post does reveal Mr. James S. Prine as a partisan shill,
however, so it is of some service.


I used to be a registered Democrat, for many years. I finally learned
the
error of my ways. As for a partisan shill, that is ridiculous. I just
dislike
liars and phony 'war heroes' like Kerry immensely.

You forgot to address Bush being an excellent fighter pilot, applying to
go to Vietnam, and whether he really earned his honorable discharge. The
evidence indicates at best an overstatement on the first point, while the
second and third are false.

--
Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon and Pedant