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Crochet vs hook-bead rims



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 14th 20, 06:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 583
Default Crochet vs hook-bead rims

So I learned (?) something new (?) today reading Lennard Zinn's column
at Velonews:
https://www.velonews.com/2020/01/tec...blowoff_503717

What I learned was the term "crochet-type rim".

Looking it up, some sources say this is just another name for hook-bead,
BUT:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775#Rims says:

Both crochet (C) and hooked-bead (HB) rims have inner profiles
that curve inwards near the outside diameter of the rim to
provide a hook that helps retain the tire bead under high
pressure. On modern bikes crochet rims are most common and
hooked bead rims are rare. The distinction is primarily that
hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
hooked bead rims. The tire is held in position radially by the
hook without a bead seat playing a role. Without a bead seat,
the primary designation of the diameter in terms of the bead
seat is not applicable, and the governing diameter is the OD.

Sentence #3 pretty clearly has a typo, but I can't figure out the
correction, and I cannot find any images on google that directly compare
hooked-bead and crocheted (also sometimes mis-named "crotched").

I suspect the "HB" in the quoted passage above is really referring to an
obsolete design, and that the quoted writer would even call the 70's
Mavic Mod E "crocheted" rather than "hooked-bead," even though we all
called them hooked-bead.

Can anyone clear this up with an authoritative source?

Mark J.
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  #2  
Old January 14th 20, 06:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,517
Default Crochet vs hook-bead rims

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 9:10:48 AM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
So I learned (?) something new (?) today reading Lennard Zinn's column
at Velonews:
https://www.velonews.com/2020/01/tec...blowoff_503717

What I learned was the term "crochet-type rim".

Looking it up, some sources say this is just another name for hook-bead,
BUT:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775#Rims says:

Both crochet (C) and hooked-bead (HB) rims have inner profiles
that curve inwards near the outside diameter of the rim to
provide a hook that helps retain the tire bead under high
pressure. On modern bikes crochet rims are most common and
hooked bead rims are rare. The distinction is primarily that
hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
hooked bead rims. The tire is held in position radially by the
hook without a bead seat playing a role. Without a bead seat,
the primary designation of the diameter in terms of the bead
seat is not applicable, and the governing diameter is the OD.

Sentence #3 pretty clearly has a typo, but I can't figure out the
correction, and I cannot find any images on google that directly compare
hooked-bead and crocheted (also sometimes mis-named "crotched").

I suspect the "HB" in the quoted passage above is really referring to an
obsolete design, and that the quoted writer would even call the 70's
Mavic Mod E "crocheted" rather than "hooked-bead," even though we all
called them hooked-bead.

Can anyone clear this up with an authoritative source?

Mark J.


I'm sure there must be an ISO drawing somewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775 My sense is that we've been calling ISO "crochet" rims "hook bead" rims but that a true "hook bead" looks like an open hook ala the old steel rim design. http://www.asia.ru/images/target/pho...Steel_Rim..jpg

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #3  
Old January 14th 20, 07:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,157
Default Crochet vs hook-bead rims

On 1/14/2020 11:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 9:10:48 AM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
So I learned (?) something new (?) today reading Lennard Zinn's column
at Velonews:
https://www.velonews.com/2020/01/tec...blowoff_503717

What I learned was the term "crochet-type rim".

Looking it up, some sources say this is just another name for hook-bead,
BUT:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775#Rims says:

Both crochet (C) and hooked-bead (HB) rims have inner profiles
that curve inwards near the outside diameter of the rim to
provide a hook that helps retain the tire bead under high
pressure. On modern bikes crochet rims are most common and
hooked bead rims are rare. The distinction is primarily that
hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
hooked bead rims. The tire is held in position radially by the
hook without a bead seat playing a role. Without a bead seat,
the primary designation of the diameter in terms of the bead
seat is not applicable, and the governing diameter is the OD.

Sentence #3 pretty clearly has a typo, but I can't figure out the
correction, and I cannot find any images on google that directly compare
hooked-bead and crocheted (also sometimes mis-named "crotched").

I suspect the "HB" in the quoted passage above is really referring to an
obsolete design, and that the quoted writer would even call the 70's
Mavic Mod E "crocheted" rather than "hooked-bead," even though we all
called them hooked-bead.

Can anyone clear this up with an authoritative source?

Mark J.


I'm sure there must be an ISO drawing somewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775 My sense is that we've been calling ISO "crochet" rims "hook bead" rims but that a true "hook bead" looks like an open hook ala the old steel rim design. http://www.asia.ru/images/target/pho.../Steel_Rim.jpg



Yes, that's correct.
Rims with a lip and also a bead seat, such as items #571 and
#A125 he
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/WEINRIMS.JPG

are the modern standard design.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #4  
Old January 15th 20, 12:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 583
Default Crochet vs hook-bead rims

On 1/14/2020 10:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2020 11:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 9:10:48 AM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
So I learned (?) something new (?) today reading Lennard Zinn's column
at Velonews:
https://www.velonews.com/2020/01/tec...blowoff_503717


What I learned was the term "crochet-type rim".

Looking it up, some sources say this is just another name for hook-bead,
BUT:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775#Rims*** says:

****Both crochet (C) and hooked-bead (HB) rims have inner profiles
****that curve inwards near the outside diameter of the rim to
****provide a hook that helps retain the tire bead under high
****pressure. On modern bikes crochet rims are most common and
****hooked bead rims are rare. The distinction is primarily that
****hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
****hooked bead rims. The tire is held in position radially by the
****hook without a bead seat playing a role. Without a bead seat,
****the primary designation of the diameter in terms of the bead
****seat is not applicable, and the governing diameter is the OD.

Sentence #3 pretty clearly has a typo, but I can't figure out the
correction, and I cannot find any images on google that directly compare
hooked-bead and crocheted (also sometimes mis-named "crotched").

I suspect the "HB" in the quoted passage above is really referring to an
obsolete design, and that the quoted writer would even call the 70's
Mavic Mod E "crocheted" rather than "hooked-bead," even though we all
called them hooked-bead.

Can anyone clear this up with an authoritative source?

Mark J.


I'm sure there must be an ISO drawing somewhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775* My sense is that we've been
calling ISO "crochet" rims "hook bead" rims but that a true "hook
bead" looks like an open hook ala the old steel rim design.
http://www.asia.ru/images/target/pho.../Steel_Rim.jpg



Yes, that's correct.
Rims with a lip and also a bead seat, such as items #571 and #A125 he
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/WEINRIMS.JPG

are the modern standard design.


Thanks, Jay & Andrew. SO I gather that in the quotation above the
author intended to say:

The distinction is primarily that
hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
/crochet/ rims.


Somehow, I think I'm just gonna keep calling them "hooked-bead." It's
worked for me for forty years.

Mark J.

  #5  
Old January 15th 20, 01:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,517
Default Crochet vs hook-bead rims

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 3:58:27 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 1/14/2020 10:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2020 11:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 9:10:48 AM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
So I learned (?) something new (?) today reading Lennard Zinn's column
at Velonews:
https://www.velonews.com/2020/01/tec...blowoff_503717


What I learned was the term "crochet-type rim".

Looking it up, some sources say this is just another name for hook-bead,
BUT:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775#Rims*** says:

****Both crochet (C) and hooked-bead (HB) rims have inner profiles
****that curve inwards near the outside diameter of the rim to
****provide a hook that helps retain the tire bead under high
****pressure. On modern bikes crochet rims are most common and
****hooked bead rims are rare. The distinction is primarily that
****hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
****hooked bead rims. The tire is held in position radially by the
****hook without a bead seat playing a role. Without a bead seat,
****the primary designation of the diameter in terms of the bead
****seat is not applicable, and the governing diameter is the OD.

Sentence #3 pretty clearly has a typo, but I can't figure out the
correction, and I cannot find any images on google that directly compare
hooked-bead and crocheted (also sometimes mis-named "crotched").

I suspect the "HB" in the quoted passage above is really referring to an
obsolete design, and that the quoted writer would even call the 70's
Mavic Mod E "crocheted" rather than "hooked-bead," even though we all
called them hooked-bead.

Can anyone clear this up with an authoritative source?

Mark J.

I'm sure there must be an ISO drawing somewhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775* My sense is that we've been
calling ISO "crochet" rims "hook bead" rims but that a true "hook
bead" looks like an open hook ala the old steel rim design.
http://www.asia.ru/images/target/pho.../Steel_Rim.jpg



Yes, that's correct.
Rims with a lip and also a bead seat, such as items #571 and #A125 he
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/WEINRIMS.JPG

are the modern standard design.


Thanks, Jay & Andrew. SO I gather that in the quotation above the
author intended to say:

The distinction is primarily that
hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
/crochet/ rims.


Somehow, I think I'm just gonna keep calling them "hooked-bead." It's
worked for me for forty years.

Mark J.


Until today, I had never heard the term crochet rim. I always called them hook bead rims as distinguished from straight sided rims -- like the Wolber concaves Andrew linked. I built a set of those 4X 27" (I think). Anyway, they were 310mm spokes, and I still have a bunch of them. Totally useless unless I get a $zillion Phil spoke cutter-threader. I don't even remember what I did with the wheels. They weighed a ton, and I hated them. I think I replaced the rims with Mod 58s -- my standard crochet bead touring rim.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #6  
Old January 15th 20, 02:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,157
Default Crochet vs hook-bead rims

On 1/14/2020 6:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 3:58:27 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 1/14/2020 10:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2020 11:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 9:10:48 AM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
So I learned (?) something new (?) today reading Lennard Zinn's column
at Velonews:
https://www.velonews.com/2020/01/tec...blowoff_503717


What I learned was the term "crochet-type rim".

Looking it up, some sources say this is just another name for hook-bead,
BUT:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775#Rims says:

Both crochet (C) and hooked-bead (HB) rims have inner profiles
that curve inwards near the outside diameter of the rim to
provide a hook that helps retain the tire bead under high
pressure. On modern bikes crochet rims are most common and
hooked bead rims are rare. The distinction is primarily that
hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
hooked bead rims. The tire is held in position radially by the
hook without a bead seat playing a role. Without a bead seat,
the primary designation of the diameter in terms of the bead
seat is not applicable, and the governing diameter is the OD.

Sentence #3 pretty clearly has a typo, but I can't figure out the
correction, and I cannot find any images on google that directly compare
hooked-bead and crocheted (also sometimes mis-named "crotched").

I suspect the "HB" in the quoted passage above is really referring to an
obsolete design, and that the quoted writer would even call the 70's
Mavic Mod E "crocheted" rather than "hooked-bead," even though we all
called them hooked-bead.

Can anyone clear this up with an authoritative source?

Mark J.

I'm sure there must be an ISO drawing somewhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775 My sense is that we've been
calling ISO "crochet" rims "hook bead" rims but that a true "hook
bead" looks like an open hook ala the old steel rim design.
http://www.asia.ru/images/target/pho.../Steel_Rim.jpg


Yes, that's correct.
Rims with a lip and also a bead seat, such as items #571 and #A125 he
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/WEINRIMS.JPG

are the modern standard design.


Thanks, Jay & Andrew. SO I gather that in the quotation above the
author intended to say:

The distinction is primarily that
hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
/crochet/ rims.


Somehow, I think I'm just gonna keep calling them "hooked-bead." It's
worked for me for forty years.

Mark J.


Until today, I had never heard the term crochet rim. I always called them hook bead rims as distinguished from straight sided rims -- like the Wolber concaves Andrew linked. I built a set of those 4X 27" (I think). Anyway, they were 310mm spokes, and I still have a bunch of them. Totally useless unless I get a $zillion Phil spoke cutter-threader. I don't even remember what I did with the wheels. They weighed a ton, and I hated them. I think I replaced the rims with Mod 58s -- my standard crochet bead touring rim.

-- Jay Beattie.


Yeah Weinmann A124/A129 were real pigs.

But we sold tons of them, used to buy them in case-of-50
700C, 27", 36 and 48 drill. For people who eat rims, those
were nearly indigestible.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #7  
Old January 15th 20, 03:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,375
Default Crochet vs hook-bead rims

"Mark J." writes:

On 1/14/2020 10:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2020 11:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 9:10:48 AM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
So I learned (?) something new (?) today reading Lennard Zinn's column
at Velonews:
https://www.velonews.com/2020/01/tec...blowoff_503717


What I learned was the term "crochet-type rim".

Looking it up, some sources say this is just another name for hook-bead,
BUT:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775#Rims*** says:

****Both crochet (C) and hooked-bead (HB) rims have inner profiles
****that curve inwards near the outside diameter of the rim to
****provide a hook that helps retain the tire bead under high
****pressure. On modern bikes crochet rims are most common and
****hooked bead rims are rare. The distinction is primarily that
****hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
****hooked bead rims. The tire is held in position radially by the
****hook without a bead seat playing a role. Without a bead seat,
****the primary designation of the diameter in terms of the bead
****seat is not applicable, and the governing diameter is the OD.

Sentence #3 pretty clearly has a typo, but I can't figure out the
correction, and I cannot find any images on google that directly compare
hooked-bead and crocheted (also sometimes mis-named "crotched").

I suspect the "HB" in the quoted passage above is really referring to an
obsolete design, and that the quoted writer would even call the 70's
Mavic Mod E "crocheted" rather than "hooked-bead," even though we all
called them hooked-bead.

Can anyone clear this up with an authoritative source?

Mark J.

I'm sure there must be an ISO drawing
somewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775* My sense is that
we've been calling ISO "crochet" rims "hook bead" rims but that a
true "hook bead" looks like an open hook ala the old steel rim
design. http://www.asia.ru/images/target/pho.../Steel_Rim.jpg



Yes, that's correct.
Rims with a lip and also a bead seat, such as items #571 and #A125 he
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/WEINRIMS.JPG

are the modern standard design.


Thanks, Jay & Andrew. SO I gather that in the quotation above the
author intended to say:

The distinction is primarily that
hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
/crochet/ rims.


Somehow, I think I'm just gonna keep calling them "hooked-bead." It's
worked for me for forty years.


Not that it makes a difference, but doesn't "crochet" just mean "hook"
in French?
  #8  
Old January 15th 20, 03:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,157
Default Crochet vs hook-bead rims

On 1/14/2020 8:02 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
"Mark J." writes:

On 1/14/2020 10:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2020 11:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 9:10:48 AM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
So I learned (?) something new (?) today reading Lennard Zinn's column
at Velonews:
https://www.velonews.com/2020/01/tec...blowoff_503717


What I learned was the term "crochet-type rim".

Looking it up, some sources say this is just another name for hook-bead,
BUT:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775#Rims says:

Both crochet (C) and hooked-bead (HB) rims have inner profiles
that curve inwards near the outside diameter of the rim to
provide a hook that helps retain the tire bead under high
pressure. On modern bikes crochet rims are most common and
hooked bead rims are rare. The distinction is primarily that
hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
hooked bead rims. The tire is held in position radially by the
hook without a bead seat playing a role. Without a bead seat,
the primary designation of the diameter in terms of the bead
seat is not applicable, and the governing diameter is the OD.

Sentence #3 pretty clearly has a typo, but I can't figure out the
correction, and I cannot find any images on google that directly compare
hooked-bead and crocheted (also sometimes mis-named "crotched").

I suspect the "HB" in the quoted passage above is really referring to an
obsolete design, and that the quoted writer would even call the 70's
Mavic Mod E "crocheted" rather than "hooked-bead," even though we all
called them hooked-bead.

Can anyone clear this up with an authoritative source?

Mark J.

I'm sure there must be an ISO drawing
somewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775 My sense is that
we've been calling ISO "crochet" rims "hook bead" rims but that a
true "hook bead" looks like an open hook ala the old steel rim
design. http://www.asia.ru/images/target/pho.../Steel_Rim.jpg


Yes, that's correct.
Rims with a lip and also a bead seat, such as items #571 and #A125 he
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/WEINRIMS.JPG

are the modern standard design.


Thanks, Jay & Andrew. SO I gather that in the quotation above the
author intended to say:

The distinction is primarily that
hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
/crochet/ rims.


Somehow, I think I'm just gonna keep calling them "hooked-bead." It's
worked for me for forty years.


Not that it makes a difference, but doesn't "crochet" just mean "hook"
in French?


Mais oui!
From 'crochet' rims to christening -584 tires as '27.5' to
calling a semi an 'assault weapon' to every statement ever
released by the Federal Reserve, an avoidance of clear
language (or actual obfuscation) is itself a telling point
about the message. And the messenger.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #9  
Old January 15th 20, 04:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,170
Default Crochet vs hook-bead rims

On 1/14/2020 9:16 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2020 8:02 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
"Mark J." writes:

On 1/14/2020 10:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2020 11:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 9:10:48 AM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
So I learned (?) something new (?) today reading Lennard Zinn's
column
at Velonews:
https://www.velonews.com/2020/01/tec...blowoff_503717



What I learned was the term "crochet-type rim".

Looking it up, some sources say this is just another name for
hook-bead,
BUT:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775#Rims  Â* says:

    Both crochet (C) and hooked-bead (HB) rims have inner
profiles
    that curve inwards near the outside diameter of the rim to
    provide a hook that helps retain the tire bead under high
    pressure. On modern bikes crochet rims are most common and
    hooked bead rims are rare. The distinction is primarily that
    hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight
side and
    hooked bead rims. The tire is held in position radially by
the
    hook without a bead seat playing a role. Without a bead seat,
    the primary designation of the diameter in terms of the bead
    seat is not applicable, and the governing diameter is the OD.

Sentence #3 pretty clearly has a typo, but I can't figure out the
correction, and I cannot find any images on google that directly
compare
hooked-bead and crocheted (also sometimes mis-named "crotched").

I suspect the "HB" in the quoted passage above is really referring
to an
obsolete design, and that the quoted writer would even call the 70's
Mavic Mod E "crocheted" rather than "hooked-bead," even though we all
called them hooked-bead.

Can anyone clear this up with an authoritative source?

Mark J.

I'm sure there must be an ISO drawing
somewhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775Â* My sense is that
we've been calling ISO "crochet" rims "hook bead" rims but that a
true "hook bead" looks like an open hook ala the old steel rim
design. http://www.asia.ru/images/target/pho.../Steel_Rim.jpg


Yes, that's correct.
Rims with a lip and also a bead seat, such as items #571 and #A125
he
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/WEINRIMS.JPG

are the modern standard design.


Thanks, Jay & Andrew.* SO I gather that in the quotation above the
author intended to say:

****The distinction is primarily that
**** hooked-bead rims lack the defined bead seat of straight side and
**** /crochet/ rims.

Somehow, I think I'm just gonna keep calling them "hooked-bead." It's
worked for me for forty years.


Not that it makes a difference, but doesn't "crochet" just mean "hook"
in French?


Mais oui!
From 'crochet' rims to christening -584 tires as '27.5' to calling a
semi an 'assault weapon' to every statement ever released by the Federal
Reserve, an avoidance of clear language (or actual obfuscation) is
itself a telling point about the message. And the messenger.


Clipless pedals? (That one clips into?)
Clincher? (What does it clinch?)
Gears? (Aren't they really sprockets?)
Mountain bike? (Hardly ever used on actual mountains.)
Road bike? (When almost all bikes are almost always ridden on roads?)

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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