CFRP bikes, failures, lawsuits

So I had been of the opinion that CFRP mateirals and manufacturing
techniques had improved. The number of "I was JRA and my plastic bike
blew up" reports seem rare in the news nowadays compared to ten years
ago. There have been a few pro racing crash videos where a frame or
fork broke apart on impact. So yesterday I ran across this article and
really don't know what to make of its accuracy:

https://www.outsideonline.com/231181...dents-lawsuits

There are a couple of interesting aspects of the legals around liability
(e.g., the manufacturer in another country is not liable in US courts
because they don't do business here, and the US-based part of the
company isn't liable because htey don't manufacture bikes) that are
mentioned in the article. I recall that Jay has had some professional
experience with this sort of thing, and a number of the newgroup members
ride CFRP bikes; I've only ridden one (a one-off HED bike) and that was
only for 100 feet or so. I do have some CFRP brake levers on one of my
bikes (much more comfortable in cold weather, interestingly).

My thought is that if I was going to buy a CFRP bike, which is highly
unlikely, I'd probably buy a Trek given their long experience with the
material. Plus, since they are owned, operated and manufacture in the
US they'd presumably have a vested interest in reducing their liability
with good design and manufacturing practices. But maybe that's faulty
thinking.

I'm a fat old man and the bikes I have will be operational far longer
than I will, so buying a new bike again in my lifetime seems unlikely.
I'll just have to keep sourcing those 8 speed cassettes...

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 11:26:08 AM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
So I had been of the opinion that CFRP mateirals and manufacturing
techniques had improved. The number of "I was JRA and my plastic bike
blew up" reports seem rare in the news nowadays compared to ten years
ago. There have been a few pro racing crash videos where a frame or
fork broke apart on impact. So yesterday I ran across this article and
really don't know what to make of its accuracy:

https://www.outsideonline.com/231181...dents-lawsuits

There are a couple of interesting aspects of the legals around liability
(e.g., the manufacturer in another country is not liable in US courts
because they don't do business here, and the US-based part of the
company isn't liable because htey don't manufacture bikes) that are
mentioned in the article. I recall that Jay has had some professional
experience with this sort of thing, and a number of the newgroup members
ride CFRP bikes; I've only ridden one (a one-off HED bike) and that was
only for 100 feet or so. I do have some CFRP brake levers on one of my
bikes (much more comfortable in cold weather, interestingly).

My thought is that if I was going to buy a CFRP bike, which is highly
unlikely, I'd probably buy a Trek given their long experience with the
material. Plus, since they are owned, operated and manufacture in the
US they'd presumably have a vested interest in reducing their liability
with good design and manufacturing practices. But maybe that's faulty
thinking.

I'm a fat old man and the bikes I have will be operational far longer
than I will, so buying a new bike again in my lifetime seems unlikely.
I'll just have to keep sourcing those 8 speed cassettes...

That smells like an article from about 2000 and not 2018. Anyway, every time I read one of these pieces, I think WTF? The jurisdictional arguments are common as fleas. The Kowal case was nothing special, not withstanding the sinister tone of the article. Every foreign manufacturer with a domestic distributor claims that it is not subject to jurisdiction in US courts for a variety of well-worn reasons. Jurisdiction is a fact-based inquiry, and sometimes manufacturers win, and sometimes they lose. This is one of my cases: https://law.justia.com/cases/oregon/...2/s059201.html That bounced up to SCOTUS once or twice. My client, however, was a domestic re-seller and not a foreign manufacturer, so I wasn't chasing the jurisdiction issue. Nonetheless, it covers the usual arguments.

And even if you can't get jurisdiction over the foreign manufacturer, you still have the domestic distributor and the bike shop (and their insurance -- sorry Andrew). And if the manufacturer is some fly-by-night mainland Chinese company, good luck anyway. Chasing mainland Chinese manufacturers is often a waste of time -- trying to get Hague Convention service on some phantom company with bad or no insurance. https://www.chinalawblog.com/2017/07...er-beware.html There is a reason cheap Chinses crap is cheap. If you're smart, you buy from someone with a big US footprint. Kowal was a Giant bike, and it has a big US presence. There is no need to chase the Taiwanese parent, IMO -- and it also has great QC. But she bought a used bike, and that's going to be a problem. Who knows whether that fork was abused as a child -- but it does point out the problem with CF. It often does not show signs of damage. That's why I would take any anticipated used CF purchase to my buddies at Ruckus: https://ruckuscomp.com/ (great place).

I've done a bunch of carbon fork cases -- probably as many as most of the big-time lawyers cited in the article. One had a manufacturing defect, and the company wrote a check. Others were bogus and involved wall impacts or objects in forks. The HONEST JRA failure is super rare, at least with the major brands with serious QC. But if people are afraid of CF, don't buy it.

I like Trek a lot (full disclosure, I have represented them and Specialized among others) and got my Emonda SLR direct from Trek and love it. It is a great bike. I also like my CF Norco gravel bike and Cannondale Synapse. My son has the stolen and returned Roubaix and will undoubtedly end up with a Tarmac or Venge or some other Specialized CF bike. CF has worked fine for me. YMMV. Again, though, I'd go with a big US (or Canada)-based company with a long warranty.

Bad news, though. Trek is not manufacturing in the USA. The high-end stuff is being designed here but made in Taiwan. Project one are painted in Waterloo. What you are buying is design, manufacturing at ISO certified plants and real QC. The key is careful supervision of the process, regardless of the material used.


-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 11:26:08 AM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
So I had been of the opinion that CFRP mateirals and manufacturing
techniques had improved. The number of "I was JRA and my plastic bike
blew up" reports seem rare in the news nowadays compared to ten years
ago. There have been a few pro racing crash videos where a frame or
fork broke apart on impact. So yesterday I ran across this article and
really don't know what to make of its accuracy:

https://www.outsideonline.com/231181...dents-lawsuits

There are a couple of interesting aspects of the legals around liability
(e.g., the manufacturer in another country is not liable in US courts
because they don't do business here, and the US-based part of the
company isn't liable because htey don't manufacture bikes) that are
mentioned in the article. I recall that Jay has had some professional
experience with this sort of thing, and a number of the newgroup members
ride CFRP bikes; I've only ridden one (a one-off HED bike) and that was
only for 100 feet or so. I do have some CFRP brake levers on one of my
bikes (much more comfortable in cold weather, interestingly).

My thought is that if I was going to buy a CFRP bike, which is highly
unlikely, I'd probably buy a Trek given their long experience with the
material. Plus, since they are owned, operated and manufacture in the
US they'd presumably have a vested interest in reducing their liability
with good design and manufacturing practices. But maybe that's faulty
thinking.

I'm a fat old man and the bikes I have will be operational far longer
than I will, so buying a new bike again in my lifetime seems unlikely.
I'll just have to keep sourcing those 8 speed cassettes...

I understand your position but I always have a curiosity for the latest and greatest. After being off the bike for 2 years or more I am finally gaining my fitness back again but it took over 5 years. So it can be done. You just have to work at it. Since I do most of the cooking I can balance the diet whereas I wife would be just as happy eating a hamburger for a late lunch and then complaining that she isn't hungry for dinner.

Over the winter I normally gain 5 lbs and then lose it over the summer. All it takes is a couple of metric centuries and the pre-century training regime. If I like the way my Di2 turns out I'll sell a couple of bikes off and get a Trek. I like the idea of a lifetime warranty.

On 1/3/2020 1:26 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
So I had been of the opinion that CFRP mateirals and manufacturing
techniques had improved. The number of "I was JRA and my plastic bike
blew up" reports seem rare in the news nowadays compared to ten years
ago. There have been a few pro racing crash videos where a frame or
fork broke apart on impact. So yesterday I ran across this article and
really don't know what to make of its accuracy:

https://www.outsideonline.com/231181...dents-lawsuits

There are a couple of interesting aspects of the legals around liability
(e.g., the manufacturer in another country is not liable in US courts
because they don't do business here, and the US-based part of the
company isn't liable because htey don't manufacture bikes) that are
mentioned in the article. I recall that Jay has had some professional
experience with this sort of thing, and a number of the newgroup members
ride CFRP bikes; I've only ridden one (a one-off HED bike) and that was
only for 100 feet or so. I do have some CFRP brake levers on one of my
bikes (much more comfortable in cold weather, interestingly).

My thought is that if I was going to buy a CFRP bike, which is highly
unlikely, I'd probably buy a Trek given their long experience with the
material. Plus, since they are owned, operated and manufacture in the
US they'd presumably have a vested interest in reducing their liability
with good design and manufacturing practices. But maybe that's faulty
thinking.

I'm a fat old man and the bikes I have will be operational far longer
than I will, so buying a new bike again in my lifetime seems unlikely.
I'll just have to keep sourcing those 8 speed cassettes...


If you want a USA made carbon framed bike, try Craig Calfee
maybe. Trek sells chinese bikes.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 1:34:02 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/3/2020 1:26 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
So I had been of the opinion that CFRP mateirals and manufacturing
techniques had improved. The number of "I was JRA and my plastic bike
blew up" reports seem rare in the news nowadays compared to ten years
ago. There have been a few pro racing crash videos where a frame or
fork broke apart on impact. So yesterday I ran across this article and
really don't know what to make of its accuracy:

https://www.outsideonline.com/231181...dents-lawsuits

There are a couple of interesting aspects of the legals around liability
(e.g., the manufacturer in another country is not liable in US courts
because they don't do business here, and the US-based part of the
company isn't liable because htey don't manufacture bikes) that are
mentioned in the article. I recall that Jay has had some professional
experience with this sort of thing, and a number of the newgroup members
ride CFRP bikes; I've only ridden one (a one-off HED bike) and that was
only for 100 feet or so. I do have some CFRP brake levers on one of my
bikes (much more comfortable in cold weather, interestingly).

My thought is that if I was going to buy a CFRP bike, which is highly
unlikely, I'd probably buy a Trek given their long experience with the
material. Plus, since they are owned, operated and manufacture in the
US they'd presumably have a vested interest in reducing their liability
with good design and manufacturing practices. But maybe that's faulty
thinking.

I'm a fat old man and the bikes I have will be operational far longer
than I will, so buying a new bike again in my lifetime seems unlikely.
I'll just have to keep sourcing those 8 speed cassettes...


If you want a USA made carbon framed bike, try Craig Calfee
maybe. Trek sells chinese bikes.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Hambini said that almost all wheels are manufactured in China. He said that most countries allow a "manufacturer" to claim that they are made in that country simply by putting name labels on them. He has said this about a couple of major manufacturers and since he actually visits these companies I suppose he has first hand knowledge.

On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:33:57 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

If you want a USA made carbon framed bike, try Craig Calfee maybe.
Trek sells chinese bikes.

See? Faulty thinking. I did not know Trek's bikes were made in China.
When did that happen?

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 6:33:07 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:33:57 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

If you want a USA made carbon framed bike, try Craig Calfee maybe.
Trek sells chinese bikes.

See? Faulty thinking. I did not know Trek's bikes were made in China.
When did that happen?

Taiwan (that China for the top end bikes). Production moved in 2018-2019. Project One bikes are painted and assembled in Waterloo, and of course designed in the USA.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:12:46 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 6:33:07 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:33:57 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

If you want a USA made carbon framed bike, try Craig Calfee maybe.
Trek sells chinese bikes.

See? Faulty thinking. I did not know Trek's bikes were made in China.
When did that happen?

Taiwan (that China for the top end bikes). Production moved in 2018-2019. Project One bikes are painted and assembled in Waterloo, and of course designed in the USA.

-- Jay Beattie.

Moreover, ALL of Specialized bikes are made in Taiwan.