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  #201  
Old January 16th 20, 12:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Uncle Wiggly
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Posts: 6
Default Really, really dumb

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 1:57:05 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/14/2020 2:53 PM, wrote:
No gun originated to hunt with. they were ALL designed from the beginning to be used to kill people in military actions.


I let so, so much of Tom's nonsense go by without comment. But his
statement above is ignorant beyond belief.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Well, pinhead - why haven't you shown any proof that I am incorrect?
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  #202  
Old January 16th 20, 12:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Uncle Wiggly
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Posts: 6
Default Really, really dumb

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 2:52:28 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 1:53:47 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/14/2020 4:24 PM, wrote:
So you don't want someone protecting their home or business against multiple invaders with sufficient ammunition huh?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...C9DC&FORM=VIRE

Apparently Tom has "good guy with a gun" fantasies. He envisions himself
whipping out an AR-15 from under his trench coat and blowing away those
bad guys. In his fantasy, medals for heroism would follow.

There are many millions of those guns in the U.S. Why wasn't one used to
stop that theft, Tom? How does "good guy with a gun" go wrong so frequently?

And how does Canada get by without far fewer of these things in
circulation? Canada doesn't seem to be at the mercy of armed robbers.
Quite the opposite, in fact.

https://theconversation.com/a-short-...-canada-123959


Tom is a war lord in Somalifornia. He needs large capacity mag, full auto and the optional grenade launcher.

In fact, he needs a minigun and a move to Texas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH-2breIx-g I wish my dad had taken me out to shoot the minigun! That is a truly Amerycun father-son bonding experience.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.


And you're an imaginary politician who believes that his opinion carries some sort of weight.
  #203  
Old January 16th 20, 12:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Really, really dumb

On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:06:02 -0800 (PST), Uncle Wiggly
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 2:52:28 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 1:53:47 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/14/2020 4:24 PM, wrote:
So you don't want someone protecting their home or business against multiple invaders with sufficient ammunition huh?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...C9DC&FORM=VIRE

Apparently Tom has "good guy with a gun" fantasies. He envisions himself
whipping out an AR-15 from under his trench coat and blowing away those
bad guys. In his fantasy, medals for heroism would follow.

There are many millions of those guns in the U.S. Why wasn't one used to
stop that theft, Tom? How does "good guy with a gun" go wrong so frequently?

And how does Canada get by without far fewer of these things in
circulation? Canada doesn't seem to be at the mercy of armed robbers.
Quite the opposite, in fact.

https://theconversation.com/a-short-...-canada-123959


Tom is a war lord in Somalifornia. He needs large capacity mag, full auto and the optional grenade launcher.

In fact, he needs a minigun and a move to Texas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH-2breIx-g I wish my dad had taken me out to shoot the minigun! That is a truly Amerycun father-son bonding experience.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.


And you're an imaginary politician who believes that his opinion carries some sort of weight.


And yours does?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #205  
Old January 16th 20, 12:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Really, really dumb

On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:03:47 -0800 (PST), Uncle Wiggly
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 1:53:47 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/14/2020 4:24 PM, wrote:
So you don't want someone protecting their home or business against multiple invaders with sufficient ammunition huh?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...C9DC&FORM=VIRE

Apparently Tom has "good guy with a gun" fantasies. He envisions himself
whipping out an AR-15 from under his trench coat and blowing away those
bad guys. In his fantasy, medals for heroism would follow.

There are many millions of those guns in the U.S. Why wasn't one used to
stop that theft, Tom? How does "good guy with a gun" go wrong so frequently?

And how does Canada get by without far fewer of these things in
circulation? Canada doesn't seem to be at the mercy of armed robbers.
Quite the opposite, in fact.

https://theconversation.com/a-short-...-canada-123959

--
- Frank Krygowski


I keep a police .38 from about 1935 around and in case you are unaware, if someone is closer than 10 feet you can probably kill them before they can even point an AR-15. I don't need guns or knives or bows or arrows but I know how to use them all.


Well living in a neighborhood with the illegal immigrants, kid gangs
and homeless sleeping on the sidewalk I think you are wise to have
self protection.

Others of us live in a much nicer environment where toting a gun is
unnecessary.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #206  
Old January 16th 20, 12:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Really, really dumb

On 1/15/2020 5:51 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 12:10:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/15/2020 4:58 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Here in Canada we have all sorts of gun control laws but they don't seem to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals or soon to be criminals; they just keep or remove them from the hands of law abiding citizens.


Really? Your gun laws don't work?

Look at some comparative data:
https://www.nationmaster.com/country.../Violent-crime

No laws are perfect. But that doesn't mean laws are useless. It looks to
me like Canada's gun laws are doing a pretty good job - or at least, way
better than those of the U.S.


Yup, make a law and everyrthing will come up roses...

But Frank, if that is true why is it that Vermont, with it's nearly
non existant gun laws has a murder by firearms rate of 1.3/100,000
while Washing D.C. with rather restrictive gun laws has a firearm
murder rate of 18/100,000?


Gun violence is not a one-variable problem, John. Yes, that makes it
complicated. But that doesn't mean the problem shouldn't be addressed.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #207  
Old January 16th 20, 01:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 840
Default Really, really dumb

On 1/15/2020 2:51 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 12:10:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/15/2020 4:58 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Here in Canada we have all sorts of gun control laws but they don't seem to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals or soon to be criminals; they just keep or remove them from the hands of law abiding citizens.


Really? Your gun laws don't work?

Look at some comparative data:
https://www.nationmaster.com/country.../Violent-crime

No laws are perfect. But that doesn't mean laws are useless. It looks to
me like Canada's gun laws are doing a pretty good job - or at least, way
better than those of the U.S.


Yup, make a law and everyrthing will come up roses...

But Frank, if that is true why is it that Vermont, with it's nearly
non existant gun laws has a murder by firearms rate of 1.3/100,000
while Washing D.C. with rather restrictive gun laws has a firearm
murder rate of 18/100,000?


Could the fact that DC is essentially 100% urban and Vermont is the
second most rural state [1] be germane?

[1] Per
https://vermontbiz.com/news/march/gr...ond-most-rural

PS - Maybe we could argue about greased tapers, disc brakes, or -gasp-
even helmets? It would be a little more on-topic.

Mark J.
  #208  
Old January 16th 20, 01:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Really, really dumb

On 1/15/2020 5:59 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:33:20 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 9:54:26 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 21:27:19 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 8:45:09 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:27:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/14/2020 9:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I own guns, including vintage steel guns and spent a lot of time shooting with friends when I was a kid. I had a gun lunatic friend as well as a SWAT officer friend and shot a lot of crazy guns. AR-15s are cool transformer guns and real hobby items. I get it. I just don't view them as religious icons. They should be subject to regulation like every other device used for killing each other, like cars.

And the "religious icons" bit is a big art of the problem. To a sad
number of gun nuts, any mention of any restriction on any type of gun or
ammo is blasphemy. It's not based on data or reason or science or logic.

Gee, it sounds just like the anti-gun fraternity who want to outlaw
the AR-15 because it looks like an assault rifle.

No, its just not a sacred cow. We regulate studded tires but not guns? We can, as a nation, decide based on accurate information, that certain firearms pose an unreasonable risk to the general population. The founding fathers contemplated private ownership of flintlocks for use in well regulated militias and did not foreclose the regulation of easily modifiable, high capacity, rapid firing carbines favored by lunatic mall shooters. Legitimate, law-abiding AR15 owners take a little hit with smaller mags, and maybe a few people at Cinnabon get away while crazy guy is reloading. It seems like a reasonable trade-off.

-- Jay Beattie.

A number of states currently have laws that regulate the possession of
fire arms based on specific physical shape, size, attachments, etc.
For example: Connecticut defines and bans weapons as follows -

Any "selective-fire" firearm capable of fully automatic,
semi-automatic or "burst fire" at the option of the user;
Any semi-automatic centerfire rifle, regardless of the date produced,
that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least
one of the following features: 1) A folding or telescoping stock; 2)
Any grip of the weapon, including a pistol grip, thumbhole stock, or
other stock that would allow an individual to grip the weapon,
resulting in any finger on the trigger hand in addition to the trigger
finger being directly below any portion of the action of the weapon
when firing; 3) A forward pistol grip; 4) A flash suppressor; or 5) A
grenade or flare launcher;

or
A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has: 1) a fixed magazine that
can accept more than 10 rounds of ammunition; or 2) an overall length
of less than 30 inches;

note: there are other conditions which I did not include due to space.
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assaul..._States#1 989

I have no idea whether this law has been tested in the court but I
believe that it is presently enforced in the state. And I read that
the Maryland's law was upheld in the courts:

The United States Supreme Court refused to hear a challenge to the
Maryland ban in November 2017. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th
Circuit in Richmond had upheld the ban, stating that: "[A]ssault
weapons and large-capacity magazines are not protected by the Second
Amendment." Attorneys general in 21 states and the NRA had asked the
Supreme Court to hear the case.[38]


FYI. https://lawcenter.giffords.org/dunca...pacity-limits/ I haven't looked at the Ninth Circuit docket to see where this case stands.

-- Jay Beattie.


Given that .22 caliber rifles with tube magazines holding more than 10
rounds have been manufactured for years and years the banning of
magazines simply on the number of cartridges held might be a bit
problematic. Note: The Henry rifle, the first lever action, made in
the mid 1800's held 16 rounds :-)


Do you suppose there might be some difference in lethality between the
Henry's 22 caliber bullet and that of the AR-15?

If not, I'm surprised that the military doesn't use Henry 22 rifles
exclusively. They're pretty inexpensive. Think of the tax money to be saved!


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #209  
Old January 16th 20, 03:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Really, really dumb

On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:02:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/15/2020 5:59 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:33:20 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 9:54:26 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 21:27:19 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 8:45:09 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 22:27:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/14/2020 9:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I own guns, including vintage steel guns and spent a lot of time shooting with friends when I was a kid. I had a gun lunatic friend as well as a SWAT officer friend and shot a lot of crazy guns. AR-15s are cool transformer guns and real hobby items. I get it. I just don't view them as religious icons. They should be subject to regulation like every other device used for killing each other, like cars.

And the "religious icons" bit is a big art of the problem. To a sad
number of gun nuts, any mention of any restriction on any type of gun or
ammo is blasphemy. It's not based on data or reason or science or logic.

Gee, it sounds just like the anti-gun fraternity who want to outlaw
the AR-15 because it looks like an assault rifle.

No, its just not a sacred cow. We regulate studded tires but not guns? We can, as a nation, decide based on accurate information, that certain firearms pose an unreasonable risk to the general population. The founding fathers contemplated private ownership of flintlocks for use in well regulated militias and did not foreclose the regulation of easily modifiable, high capacity, rapid firing carbines favored by lunatic mall shooters. Legitimate, law-abiding AR15 owners take a little hit with smaller mags, and maybe a few people at Cinnabon get away while crazy guy is reloading. It seems like a reasonable trade-off.

-- Jay Beattie.

A number of states currently have laws that regulate the possession of
fire arms based on specific physical shape, size, attachments, etc.
For example: Connecticut defines and bans weapons as follows -

Any "selective-fire" firearm capable of fully automatic,
semi-automatic or "burst fire" at the option of the user;
Any semi-automatic centerfire rifle, regardless of the date produced,
that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least
one of the following features: 1) A folding or telescoping stock; 2)
Any grip of the weapon, including a pistol grip, thumbhole stock, or
other stock that would allow an individual to grip the weapon,
resulting in any finger on the trigger hand in addition to the trigger
finger being directly below any portion of the action of the weapon
when firing; 3) A forward pistol grip; 4) A flash suppressor; or 5) A
grenade or flare launcher;

or
A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has: 1) a fixed magazine that
can accept more than 10 rounds of ammunition; or 2) an overall length
of less than 30 inches;

note: there are other conditions which I did not include due to space.
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assaul..._States#1 989

I have no idea whether this law has been tested in the court but I
believe that it is presently enforced in the state. And I read that
the Maryland's law was upheld in the courts:

The United States Supreme Court refused to hear a challenge to the
Maryland ban in November 2017. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th
Circuit in Richmond had upheld the ban, stating that: "[A]ssault
weapons and large-capacity magazines are not protected by the Second
Amendment." Attorneys general in 21 states and the NRA had asked the
Supreme Court to hear the case.[38]

FYI. https://lawcenter.giffords.org/dunca...pacity-limits/ I haven't looked at the Ninth Circuit docket to see where this case stands.

-- Jay Beattie.


Given that .22 caliber rifles with tube magazines holding more than 10
rounds have been manufactured for years and years the banning of
magazines simply on the number of cartridges held might be a bit
problematic. Note: The Henry rifle, the first lever action, made in
the mid 1800's held 16 rounds :-)


Do you suppose there might be some difference in lethality between the
Henry's 22 caliber bullet and that of the AR-15?


Geeze Frank, you gotta do a little research. The Henry rifle of 1860
fired a .44 caliber bullet at 1,125 ft/sec with a muzzle energy of 568
ft.lbs. Approximately the same power as the .357 magnum pistol
cartridge. The .357 magnum was the most powerful handgun made, until
about 1955 when the .44 magnum was introduced.

The question then is, in modern terms, a 357 magnum more deadly then
the 5.65 x 56 NATO that was the original cartridge that the AR-15 was
designed for? Well, in technical terms the 5.65 has a muzzle energy
roughly 3 times the power of the .357 magnum. But is this
significant? The wound channels are more severe with the AR-15 but the
..357 will completely penetrate the thickest part of your body.

An example: using my father's 25-06, a wildcat using a .25 caliber
bullet and a 30-06 case, I once hit a woodchuck in the chest area and
literally blew it into two pieces. Using my own 22-250 wildcat I have
hit woodchucks in the chest area and blew abut 50% of the chest area
away.

Is one woodchuck more dead than the other?.

If not, I'm surprised that the military doesn't use Henry 22 rifles
exclusively. They're pretty inexpensive. Think of the tax money to be saved!


Err... a 1860 model Henry sells for $39,999.99 these days. See
https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...c502_p1_o6.cfm
and a M-16 is about $700, as made by Remington under contract to the
Army.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #210  
Old January 16th 20, 03:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Really, really dumb

On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:01:35 -0800, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 1/15/2020 2:51 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 12:10:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/15/2020 4:58 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Here in Canada we have all sorts of gun control laws but they don't seem to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals or soon to be criminals; they just keep or remove them from the hands of law abiding citizens.

Really? Your gun laws don't work?

Look at some comparative data:
https://www.nationmaster.com/country.../Violent-crime

No laws are perfect. But that doesn't mean laws are useless. It looks to
me like Canada's gun laws are doing a pretty good job - or at least, way
better than those of the U.S.


Yup, make a law and everyrthing will come up roses...

But Frank, if that is true why is it that Vermont, with it's nearly
non existant gun laws has a murder by firearms rate of 1.3/100,000
while Washing D.C. with rather restrictive gun laws has a firearm
murder rate of 18/100,000?


Could the fact that DC is essentially 100% urban and Vermont is the
second most rural state [1] be germane?

[1] Per
https://vermontbiz.com/news/march/gr...ond-most-rural

PS - Maybe we could argue about greased tapers, disc brakes, or -gasp-
even helmets? It would be a little more on-topic.

Mark J.


There are undoubtidly many reasons why Washington, D.C., for example,
has a high firearm murder rate and populatiion density may well be a
part of it.

My reply was specifically to Franks assertion that if we could just
have more gun law that everything would be wonderful, wonderful. I was
pointing out that simply passing laws does not solve a problem.
--
cheers,

John B.

 




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