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Sad helmet incident



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 19th 20, 01:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Sad helmet incident

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 12:05:06 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Girl, 4, died after bike helmet got caught on branch:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51139789

She wasn't riding her bike at the time, but, being four years old, she
probably wasn't able to remove her own helmet.


Perhaps we should all try a simple experiment. Throw a rope over an
overhead tree branch or roof beam. Attach the other end of the rope
to your bicycle helmet. Take up the rope slack by bending your knees.
No need to lift your feed off the ground as you're likely to strangle
yourself, break your neck, or hyperextend some muscles.

While the chin strap is under tension, try to release the chin strap
clip (also known as a "quick release buckle").
https://www.google.com/search?q=quick+release+buckle&tbm=isch
I just tried it on my (Giro Indicator G151X) helmet, with only a few
kg of tension, and couldn't release the chin strap (quickly or
otherwise). The harpoon shaped clips are designed to hold under
tension.

The buckle on my spare helmet did something unexpected. If I only
pushed one of the two buttons on each side, the quick release would
jam. Squeezing the remaining button did not release the buckle. In
order to release it, I had to push the buckle back together, and then
push BOTH buttons at the same time, in order to convince the buckle to
release. I doubt if a four year old could manage that. My Giro
helmet didn't jam, but did require quite a bit of force to squeeze one
or both buttons to release the buckle.

In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the
common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension
or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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  #12  
Old January 19th 20, 02:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Sad helmet incident

On Saturday, 18 January 2020 19:31:22 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 12:05:06 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Girl, 4, died after bike helmet got caught on branch:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51139789

She wasn't riding her bike at the time, but, being four years old, she
probably wasn't able to remove her own helmet.


Perhaps we should all try a simple experiment. Throw a rope over an
overhead tree branch or roof beam. Attach the other end of the rope
to your bicycle helmet. Take up the rope slack by bending your knees.
No need to lift your feed off the ground as you're likely to strangle
yourself, break your neck, or hyperextend some muscles.

While the chin strap is under tension, try to release the chin strap
clip (also known as a "quick release buckle").
https://www.google.com/search?q=quick+release+buckle&tbm=isch
I just tried it on my (Giro Indicator G151X) helmet, with only a few
kg of tension, and couldn't release the chin strap (quickly or
otherwise). The harpoon shaped clips are designed to hold under
tension.

The buckle on my spare helmet did something unexpected. If I only
pushed one of the two buttons on each side, the quick release would
jam. Squeezing the remaining button did not release the buckle. In
order to release it, I had to push the buckle back together, and then
push BOTH buttons at the same time, in order to convince the buckle to
release. I doubt if a four year old could manage that. My Giro
helmet didn't jam, but did require quite a bit of force to squeeze one
or both buttons to release the buckle.

In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the
common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension
or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


The trick would be designing the release so that it stays attached in an accident yet releases if the pressure on it stays beyond a certain time.

I have a friend who was pulled off his MTB whilst riding off-road, when a branch snagged in one of his helmet vent holes. Fortunately, other than being a bit stunned o=upon impact with the trail he was okay.

I wonder how many injuries are caused by a helmet strap not releasing when the helmet is snagged by something? I think it would be filed under "freak accident".

Cheers
  #13  
Old January 19th 20, 04:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Sad helmet incident

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 16:26:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

...helmet promoters say kids should take off their helmet
immediately when they get off their bike.


Of course helmet promoters will say that. As soon as the kids take
off their helmet, they forget where they left it, and it's gone.
That's great for helmet sales. Maybe invent an optional helmet leash
to keep the helmet attached to the kid?

I make regular visits to the local thrift shop to replenish my supply
of repairable junk:
http://theabbotsthrift.org
Every few months, about 30 children's bicycle helmets appear for sale.
Most are in new or almost new condition with no evidence of prior
impact damage. The manager says that they come from the local
schools, playgrounds, and parks, where the kids leave them and forget
them. Without a name and phone number label attached, finding the
owner is impossible[1]. So, they accumulate and eventually get
donated to a thrift shop.

For reasons I don't want to disclose, I had reason to make regular
visits to the lost and found room/closet at a local park. The
room/closet was crammed with every imaginable article of clothing a
child might wear, along with every imaginable item they might bring
along to the park, bicycle helmets among them. Finding things in the
mess is only a little easier than finding the proverbial needle in the
hay stack. The room/closet is emptied as it fills, only to rapidly
refill with more clothes and junk.


[1] I hate to admit it, but none of my assorted helmets have a label
with my name and phone number. Neither do my bicycles. Argh.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #14  
Old January 19th 20, 04:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Sad helmet incident

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 8:38:25 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 18 January 2020 19:31:22 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 12:05:06 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Girl, 4, died after bike helmet got caught on branch:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51139789

She wasn't riding her bike at the time, but, being four years old, she
probably wasn't able to remove her own helmet.


Perhaps we should all try a simple experiment. Throw a rope over an
overhead tree branch or roof beam. Attach the other end of the rope
to your bicycle helmet. Take up the rope slack by bending your knees.
No need to lift your feed off the ground as you're likely to strangle
yourself, break your neck, or hyperextend some muscles.

While the chin strap is under tension, try to release the chin strap
clip (also known as a "quick release buckle").
https://www.google.com/search?q=quick+release+buckle&tbm=isch
I just tried it on my (Giro Indicator G151X) helmet, with only a few
kg of tension, and couldn't release the chin strap (quickly or
otherwise). The harpoon shaped clips are designed to hold under
tension.

The buckle on my spare helmet did something unexpected. If I only
pushed one of the two buttons on each side, the quick release would
jam. Squeezing the remaining button did not release the buckle. In
order to release it, I had to push the buckle back together, and then
push BOTH buttons at the same time, in order to convince the buckle to
release. I doubt if a four year old could manage that. My Giro
helmet didn't jam, but did require quite a bit of force to squeeze one
or both buttons to release the buckle.

In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the
common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension
or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


The trick would be designing the release so that it stays attached in an accident yet releases if the pressure on it stays beyond a certain time.

I have a friend who was pulled off his MTB whilst riding off-road, when a branch snagged in one of his helmet vent holes. Fortunately, other than being a bit stunned o=upon impact with the trail he was okay.

I wonder how many injuries are caused by a helmet strap not releasing when the helmet is snagged by something? I think it would be filed under "freak accident".


A very good friend of mine was once a rather rabid helmet promoter.
She actually worked in a position where helmet promotion was one of
her main duties. This was back in the early 1990s, not long after the
terribly constructed (or perhaps dishonest) Thompson & Rivara paper
had been published.

She said to me "85%, Frank! 85% benefit! And it's so simple!"

Turns out the benefit is not anywhere close to 85%. And the more you
study the details, the more you realize it's not simple at all.

- Frank Krygowski

  #15  
Old January 19th 20, 04:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Sad helmet incident

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 17:38:23 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

The trick would be designing the release so that it stays attached
in an accident yet releases if the pressure on it stays beyond a
certain time.


That would probably be acceptable for a bicycle helmet. However, I
can imagine situations where a premature release would cause
additional injuries. For example, I was the first on scene at this
automobile accident:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/Accident-2013-05-10.html
Instead of backing out of the handicapped parking space, the driver
accidentally floored the accelerator, drove onto the roof of the
Nissan, and then fell off the roof onto it's side. The driver was
duly strapped into the car seat, but couldn't release the seat belt. I
arrived, climbed up onto the left car door and quickly determined that
it was best to leave the driver strapped into the car seat. If the
seat belt was suddenly or improperly released, the driver would have
fallen onto a pile of broken glass and some junk that was in the car.
So, we waited about 5 minutes for the fire department to arrive. They
threw some padding onto the glass, and slowly lowered the driver onto
the padding. If the seat belt had automatically released because it
had been under excess tension for too long, the driver would have been
shredded by the glass.

The same might happen with a bicycle helmet strap release. The child
could end up suspended off the ground by the helmet in playground
equipment. An unexpected and sudden release of the strap could cause
more harm than good. It's difficult to predict this one. My
guess(tm) is a rope pull release would be acceptable, but having the
strap release without warning would not work.

What bothers me is how the helmet strap could end up around the
child's neck and kill by asphyxiation. If the helmet were suspended
vertically (from the center of mass), the strap would remain under the
child's chin. That would cause some damage, but would not strangle
the child. However, if the helmet straps were loose, and the helmet
slid towards the back of the head, the child could conceivably be
strangled by straps. However, the helmet would be in a very odd and
unusual position. Try to visualize where a helmet and straps would
need to be positioned into order to wrap around the neck.

I have a friend who was pulled off his MTB whilst riding off-road,
when a branch snagged in one of his helmet vent holes. Fortunately,
other than being a bit stunned o=upon impact with the trail he was okay.


Buy your friend an aluminum wire screen to cover his helmet. That
should keep the branches out of the helmet holes.

I wonder how many injuries are caused by a helmet strap not releasing
when the helmet is snagged by something? I think it would be filed
under "freak accident".


I don't know. It might be a rather large number that appears to be
small because only the fatalities are reported. Or, it might be so
unusual as to be statistically insignificant. Either way, it's very
difficult to protect against any and all forms of real and potential
injury.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #16  
Old January 19th 20, 05:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Sad helmet incident

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:07:56 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 8:38:25 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 18 January 2020 19:31:22 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 12:05:06 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Girl, 4, died after bike helmet got caught on branch:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51139789

She wasn't riding her bike at the time, but, being four years old, she
probably wasn't able to remove her own helmet.

Perhaps we should all try a simple experiment. Throw a rope over an
overhead tree branch or roof beam. Attach the other end of the rope
to your bicycle helmet. Take up the rope slack by bending your knees.
No need to lift your feed off the ground as you're likely to strangle
yourself, break your neck, or hyperextend some muscles.

While the chin strap is under tension, try to release the chin strap
clip (also known as a "quick release buckle").
https://www.google.com/search?q=quick+release+buckle&tbm=isch
I just tried it on my (Giro Indicator G151X) helmet, with only a few
kg of tension, and couldn't release the chin strap (quickly or
otherwise). The harpoon shaped clips are designed to hold under
tension.

The buckle on my spare helmet did something unexpected. If I only
pushed one of the two buttons on each side, the quick release would
jam. Squeezing the remaining button did not release the buckle. In
order to release it, I had to push the buckle back together, and then
push BOTH buttons at the same time, in order to convince the buckle to
release. I doubt if a four year old could manage that. My Giro
helmet didn't jam, but did require quite a bit of force to squeeze one
or both buttons to release the buckle.

In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the
common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension
or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


The trick would be designing the release so that it stays attached in an accident yet releases if the pressure on it stays beyond a certain time.

I have a friend who was pulled off his MTB whilst riding off-road, when a branch snagged in one of his helmet vent holes. Fortunately, other than being a bit stunned o=upon impact with the trail he was okay.

I wonder how many injuries are caused by a helmet strap not releasing when the helmet is snagged by something? I think it would be filed under "freak accident".


A very good friend of mine was once a rather rabid helmet promoter.
She actually worked in a position where helmet promotion was one of
her main duties. This was back in the early 1990s, not long after the
terribly constructed (or perhaps dishonest) Thompson & Rivara paper
had been published.

She said to me "85%, Frank! 85% benefit! And it's so simple!"

Turns out the benefit is not anywhere close to 85%. And the more you
study the details, the more you realize it's not simple at all.

- Frank Krygowski


I came across something the other day that apparently that referenced
several sources as follows:
https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1012.html

Specific research into fatalities in Sheffield, UK (Kennedy, 1996) has
shown that even if head injuries were eliminated completely, at least
50% of cyclist deaths would still occur. Most fatalities involve
multiple injuries and head injury is not the sole cause of death. The
experience of a solicitor specialising in cyclist injuries (BHRF,
1173) supports the view that deaths solely due to head injury are
unusual.

A study of cyclist crashes in Brisbane, Australia concluded that
helmets would prevent very few fatalities (Corner, Whitney, O'Rourke
and Morgan, 1987). All deaths were caused through collisions between a
bicycle and a motor vehicle. For 13 of the 14 cyclists who died, there
was no indication that a helmet might have made any difference.

In inner London, 58% of cyclist fatalities were caused by collisions
with heavy good vehicles, as were 30% of those in outer London
(Gilbert and McCarthy,1994). The idea that a lightweight polystyrene
helmet could be of significant benefit in such circumstances is
unrealistic...

There are a number of other references in the article, one of which
titled "Cyclist injury data before and after helmet law in Western
Australia" demonstrating that hospital admissions, referenced to the
number of cyclists, actually rose with the advent of the mandantory
helmet law.

Note: I have no idea who or what "cyclehelmets.org" is.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #17  
Old January 19th 20, 05:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Sad helmet incident

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 16:31:33 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the
common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension or
possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled.


As well as the harpoon style buckle that requires two fingers to
reelease, there is a press button (tab actually) style of buckle that has
been around as log as the harpoon style. caveat, i usualy only see them
in sewing shops.

  #18  
Old January 19th 20, 06:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Sad helmet incident

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 04:31:17 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 16:31:33 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the
common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension or
possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled.


As well as the harpoon style buckle that requires two fingers to
reelease, there is a press button (tab actually) style of buckle that has
been around as log as the harpoon style. caveat, i usualy only see them
in sewing shops.


I think I know what you mean, but I can't find a photo with Google
Image search. I also seem to recall they only came in a rather large
1" webbing size, not the typical 5/8" helmet chin strap webbing size.
1" webbing is too wide for a chin strap.

In any case, I don't believe a button will work. The button has to be
operated by panicky 4 year old with small fingers and limited finger
grip strength. At that age, the natural inclination is not to push on
things, but rather to grab and pull. That's why I suggested a release
cord and D-ring pull. If the chin strap is strangling you, the
natural inclination is to grab the chin strap and pull. Manipulating
a harpoon or button release is especially difficult because they can't
be seen. I would not expect a panicky 4 year old to be able to do
much more than grab whatever is choking them and pull.

Another problem is that in order to operate a push button (or push
tab), one must push against something solid. In this case, it will be
the soft underside of the chin or possibly the soft neck. It will be
a minor miracle if one could push against much more solid bone, but
there's little of that in the area of the helmet quick release buckle.
Squeezing the quick release between the thumb and index finger will
work for both the harpoon style and the push button style. However, a
4 year old doesn't have much reach or strength to be able to do that
quite yet. That's why they need a parental assistance getting the
helmet on and off.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #19  
Old January 19th 20, 06:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Sad helmet incident

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 21:14:42 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 04:31:17 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 16:31:33 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the
common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension or
possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled.


As well as the harpoon style buckle that requires two fingers to
reelease, there is a press button (tab actually) style of buckle that has
been around as log as the harpoon style. caveat, i usualy only see them
in sewing shops.


I think I know what you mean, but I can't find a photo with Google
Image search. I also seem to recall they only came in a rather large
1" webbing size, not the typical 5/8" helmet chin strap webbing size.
1" webbing is too wide for a chin strap.

In any case, I don't believe a button will work. The button has to be
operated by panicky 4 year old with small fingers and limited finger
grip strength. At that age, the natural inclination is not to push on
things, but rather to grab and pull. That's why I suggested a release
cord and D-ring pull. If the chin strap is strangling you, the
natural inclination is to grab the chin strap and pull. Manipulating
a harpoon or button release is especially difficult because they can't
be seen. I would not expect a panicky 4 year old to be able to do
much more than grab whatever is choking them and pull.

Another problem is that in order to operate a push button (or push
tab), one must push against something solid. In this case, it will be
the soft underside of the chin or possibly the soft neck. It will be
a minor miracle if one could push against much more solid bone, but
there's little of that in the area of the helmet quick release buckle.
Squeezing the quick release between the thumb and index finger will
work for both the harpoon style and the push button style. However, a
4 year old doesn't have much reach or strength to be able to do that
quite yet. That's why they need a parental assistance getting the
helmet on and off.



The Vozz helmet has no chin strap :-)
https://motorbikewriter.com/vozz-hel...no-chin-strap/
--
cheers,

John B.

  #20  
Old January 19th 20, 06:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Sad helmet incident

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 12:36:03 +0700, John B.
wrote:

The Vozz helmet has no chin strap :-)
https://motorbikewriter.com/vozz-hel...no-chin-strap/


Probably works best on those who have no chin.

There's also Darth Vader's helmet:
https://www.google.com/search?q=darth+vader+helmet&tbm=isch
and Star Wars Storm Troopers helmet:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=star+wars+troopers+helmet
The Troopers helmet splits vertically at the ear:
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/66298/Hasbro-The-Clone-Wars-Aegs-5Plus.html

Which one of these three helmets do you think a 4 year old might want
to wear? I vote for the various Storm Troopers helmets.

Soon, bicycle riders everywhere will be wearing Storm Trooper "safety"
helmets.

May the farce be with you.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 




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