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#11
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Sad helmet incident
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 12:05:06 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote: Girl, 4, died after bike helmet got caught on branch: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51139789 She wasn't riding her bike at the time, but, being four years old, she probably wasn't able to remove her own helmet. Perhaps we should all try a simple experiment. Throw a rope over an overhead tree branch or roof beam. Attach the other end of the rope to your bicycle helmet. Take up the rope slack by bending your knees. No need to lift your feed off the ground as you're likely to strangle yourself, break your neck, or hyperextend some muscles. While the chin strap is under tension, try to release the chin strap clip (also known as a "quick release buckle"). https://www.google.com/search?q=quick+release+buckle&tbm=isch I just tried it on my (Giro Indicator G151X) helmet, with only a few kg of tension, and couldn't release the chin strap (quickly or otherwise). The harpoon shaped clips are designed to hold under tension. The buckle on my spare helmet did something unexpected. If I only pushed one of the two buttons on each side, the quick release would jam. Squeezing the remaining button did not release the buckle. In order to release it, I had to push the buckle back together, and then push BOTH buttons at the same time, in order to convince the buckle to release. I doubt if a four year old could manage that. My Giro helmet didn't jam, but did require quite a bit of force to squeeze one or both buttons to release the buckle. In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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#12
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Sad helmet incident
On Saturday, 18 January 2020 19:31:22 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 12:05:06 -0500, Radey Shouman wrote: Girl, 4, died after bike helmet got caught on branch: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51139789 She wasn't riding her bike at the time, but, being four years old, she probably wasn't able to remove her own helmet. Perhaps we should all try a simple experiment. Throw a rope over an overhead tree branch or roof beam. Attach the other end of the rope to your bicycle helmet. Take up the rope slack by bending your knees. No need to lift your feed off the ground as you're likely to strangle yourself, break your neck, or hyperextend some muscles. While the chin strap is under tension, try to release the chin strap clip (also known as a "quick release buckle"). https://www.google.com/search?q=quick+release+buckle&tbm=isch I just tried it on my (Giro Indicator G151X) helmet, with only a few kg of tension, and couldn't release the chin strap (quickly or otherwise). The harpoon shaped clips are designed to hold under tension. The buckle on my spare helmet did something unexpected. If I only pushed one of the two buttons on each side, the quick release would jam. Squeezing the remaining button did not release the buckle. In order to release it, I had to push the buckle back together, and then push BOTH buttons at the same time, in order to convince the buckle to release. I doubt if a four year old could manage that. My Giro helmet didn't jam, but did require quite a bit of force to squeeze one or both buttons to release the buckle. In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 The trick would be designing the release so that it stays attached in an accident yet releases if the pressure on it stays beyond a certain time. I have a friend who was pulled off his MTB whilst riding off-road, when a branch snagged in one of his helmet vent holes. Fortunately, other than being a bit stunned o=upon impact with the trail he was okay. I wonder how many injuries are caused by a helmet strap not releasing when the helmet is snagged by something? I think it would be filed under "freak accident". Cheers |
#13
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Sad helmet incident
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 16:26:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: ...helmet promoters say kids should take off their helmet immediately when they get off their bike. Of course helmet promoters will say that. As soon as the kids take off their helmet, they forget where they left it, and it's gone. That's great for helmet sales. Maybe invent an optional helmet leash to keep the helmet attached to the kid? I make regular visits to the local thrift shop to replenish my supply of repairable junk: http://theabbotsthrift.org Every few months, about 30 children's bicycle helmets appear for sale. Most are in new or almost new condition with no evidence of prior impact damage. The manager says that they come from the local schools, playgrounds, and parks, where the kids leave them and forget them. Without a name and phone number label attached, finding the owner is impossible[1]. So, they accumulate and eventually get donated to a thrift shop. For reasons I don't want to disclose, I had reason to make regular visits to the lost and found room/closet at a local park. The room/closet was crammed with every imaginable article of clothing a child might wear, along with every imaginable item they might bring along to the park, bicycle helmets among them. Finding things in the mess is only a little easier than finding the proverbial needle in the hay stack. The room/closet is emptied as it fills, only to rapidly refill with more clothes and junk. [1] I hate to admit it, but none of my assorted helmets have a label with my name and phone number. Neither do my bicycles. Argh. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#14
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Sad helmet incident
On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 8:38:25 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 18 January 2020 19:31:22 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 12:05:06 -0500, Radey Shouman wrote: Girl, 4, died after bike helmet got caught on branch: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51139789 She wasn't riding her bike at the time, but, being four years old, she probably wasn't able to remove her own helmet. Perhaps we should all try a simple experiment. Throw a rope over an overhead tree branch or roof beam. Attach the other end of the rope to your bicycle helmet. Take up the rope slack by bending your knees. No need to lift your feed off the ground as you're likely to strangle yourself, break your neck, or hyperextend some muscles. While the chin strap is under tension, try to release the chin strap clip (also known as a "quick release buckle"). https://www.google.com/search?q=quick+release+buckle&tbm=isch I just tried it on my (Giro Indicator G151X) helmet, with only a few kg of tension, and couldn't release the chin strap (quickly or otherwise). The harpoon shaped clips are designed to hold under tension. The buckle on my spare helmet did something unexpected. If I only pushed one of the two buttons on each side, the quick release would jam. Squeezing the remaining button did not release the buckle. In order to release it, I had to push the buckle back together, and then push BOTH buttons at the same time, in order to convince the buckle to release. I doubt if a four year old could manage that. My Giro helmet didn't jam, but did require quite a bit of force to squeeze one or both buttons to release the buckle. In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 The trick would be designing the release so that it stays attached in an accident yet releases if the pressure on it stays beyond a certain time. I have a friend who was pulled off his MTB whilst riding off-road, when a branch snagged in one of his helmet vent holes. Fortunately, other than being a bit stunned o=upon impact with the trail he was okay. I wonder how many injuries are caused by a helmet strap not releasing when the helmet is snagged by something? I think it would be filed under "freak accident". A very good friend of mine was once a rather rabid helmet promoter. She actually worked in a position where helmet promotion was one of her main duties. This was back in the early 1990s, not long after the terribly constructed (or perhaps dishonest) Thompson & Rivara paper had been published. She said to me "85%, Frank! 85% benefit! And it's so simple!" Turns out the benefit is not anywhere close to 85%. And the more you study the details, the more you realize it's not simple at all. - Frank Krygowski |
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Sad helmet incident
On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 17:38:23 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: The trick would be designing the release so that it stays attached in an accident yet releases if the pressure on it stays beyond a certain time. That would probably be acceptable for a bicycle helmet. However, I can imagine situations where a premature release would cause additional injuries. For example, I was the first on scene at this automobile accident: http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/Accident-2013-05-10.html Instead of backing out of the handicapped parking space, the driver accidentally floored the accelerator, drove onto the roof of the Nissan, and then fell off the roof onto it's side. The driver was duly strapped into the car seat, but couldn't release the seat belt. I arrived, climbed up onto the left car door and quickly determined that it was best to leave the driver strapped into the car seat. If the seat belt was suddenly or improperly released, the driver would have fallen onto a pile of broken glass and some junk that was in the car. So, we waited about 5 minutes for the fire department to arrive. They threw some padding onto the glass, and slowly lowered the driver onto the padding. If the seat belt had automatically released because it had been under excess tension for too long, the driver would have been shredded by the glass. The same might happen with a bicycle helmet strap release. The child could end up suspended off the ground by the helmet in playground equipment. An unexpected and sudden release of the strap could cause more harm than good. It's difficult to predict this one. My guess(tm) is a rope pull release would be acceptable, but having the strap release without warning would not work. What bothers me is how the helmet strap could end up around the child's neck and kill by asphyxiation. If the helmet were suspended vertically (from the center of mass), the strap would remain under the child's chin. That would cause some damage, but would not strangle the child. However, if the helmet straps were loose, and the helmet slid towards the back of the head, the child could conceivably be strangled by straps. However, the helmet would be in a very odd and unusual position. Try to visualize where a helmet and straps would need to be positioned into order to wrap around the neck. I have a friend who was pulled off his MTB whilst riding off-road, when a branch snagged in one of his helmet vent holes. Fortunately, other than being a bit stunned o=upon impact with the trail he was okay. Buy your friend an aluminum wire screen to cover his helmet. That should keep the branches out of the helmet holes. I wonder how many injuries are caused by a helmet strap not releasing when the helmet is snagged by something? I think it would be filed under "freak accident". I don't know. It might be a rather large number that appears to be small because only the fatalities are reported. Or, it might be so unusual as to be statistically insignificant. Either way, it's very difficult to protect against any and all forms of real and potential injury. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#16
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Sad helmet incident
On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:07:56 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote: On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 8:38:25 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Saturday, 18 January 2020 19:31:22 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 12:05:06 -0500, Radey Shouman wrote: Girl, 4, died after bike helmet got caught on branch: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51139789 She wasn't riding her bike at the time, but, being four years old, she probably wasn't able to remove her own helmet. Perhaps we should all try a simple experiment. Throw a rope over an overhead tree branch or roof beam. Attach the other end of the rope to your bicycle helmet. Take up the rope slack by bending your knees. No need to lift your feed off the ground as you're likely to strangle yourself, break your neck, or hyperextend some muscles. While the chin strap is under tension, try to release the chin strap clip (also known as a "quick release buckle"). https://www.google.com/search?q=quick+release+buckle&tbm=isch I just tried it on my (Giro Indicator G151X) helmet, with only a few kg of tension, and couldn't release the chin strap (quickly or otherwise). The harpoon shaped clips are designed to hold under tension. The buckle on my spare helmet did something unexpected. If I only pushed one of the two buttons on each side, the quick release would jam. Squeezing the remaining button did not release the buckle. In order to release it, I had to push the buckle back together, and then push BOTH buttons at the same time, in order to convince the buckle to release. I doubt if a four year old could manage that. My Giro helmet didn't jam, but did require quite a bit of force to squeeze one or both buttons to release the buckle. In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 The trick would be designing the release so that it stays attached in an accident yet releases if the pressure on it stays beyond a certain time. I have a friend who was pulled off his MTB whilst riding off-road, when a branch snagged in one of his helmet vent holes. Fortunately, other than being a bit stunned o=upon impact with the trail he was okay. I wonder how many injuries are caused by a helmet strap not releasing when the helmet is snagged by something? I think it would be filed under "freak accident". A very good friend of mine was once a rather rabid helmet promoter. She actually worked in a position where helmet promotion was one of her main duties. This was back in the early 1990s, not long after the terribly constructed (or perhaps dishonest) Thompson & Rivara paper had been published. She said to me "85%, Frank! 85% benefit! And it's so simple!" Turns out the benefit is not anywhere close to 85%. And the more you study the details, the more you realize it's not simple at all. - Frank Krygowski I came across something the other day that apparently that referenced several sources as follows: https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1012.html Specific research into fatalities in Sheffield, UK (Kennedy, 1996) has shown that even if head injuries were eliminated completely, at least 50% of cyclist deaths would still occur. Most fatalities involve multiple injuries and head injury is not the sole cause of death. The experience of a solicitor specialising in cyclist injuries (BHRF, 1173) supports the view that deaths solely due to head injury are unusual. A study of cyclist crashes in Brisbane, Australia concluded that helmets would prevent very few fatalities (Corner, Whitney, O'Rourke and Morgan, 1987). All deaths were caused through collisions between a bicycle and a motor vehicle. For 13 of the 14 cyclists who died, there was no indication that a helmet might have made any difference. In inner London, 58% of cyclist fatalities were caused by collisions with heavy good vehicles, as were 30% of those in outer London (Gilbert and McCarthy,1994). The idea that a lightweight polystyrene helmet could be of significant benefit in such circumstances is unrealistic... There are a number of other references in the article, one of which titled "Cyclist injury data before and after helmet law in Western Australia" demonstrating that hospital admissions, referenced to the number of cyclists, actually rose with the advent of the mandantory helmet law. Note: I have no idea who or what "cyclehelmets.org" is. -- cheers, John B. |
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Sad helmet incident
On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 16:31:33 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled. As well as the harpoon style buckle that requires two fingers to reelease, there is a press button (tab actually) style of buckle that has been around as log as the harpoon style. caveat, i usualy only see them in sewing shops. |
#18
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Sad helmet incident
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 04:31:17 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote: On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 16:31:33 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled. As well as the harpoon style buckle that requires two fingers to reelease, there is a press button (tab actually) style of buckle that has been around as log as the harpoon style. caveat, i usualy only see them in sewing shops. I think I know what you mean, but I can't find a photo with Google Image search. I also seem to recall they only came in a rather large 1" webbing size, not the typical 5/8" helmet chin strap webbing size. 1" webbing is too wide for a chin strap. In any case, I don't believe a button will work. The button has to be operated by panicky 4 year old with small fingers and limited finger grip strength. At that age, the natural inclination is not to push on things, but rather to grab and pull. That's why I suggested a release cord and D-ring pull. If the chin strap is strangling you, the natural inclination is to grab the chin strap and pull. Manipulating a harpoon or button release is especially difficult because they can't be seen. I would not expect a panicky 4 year old to be able to do much more than grab whatever is choking them and pull. Another problem is that in order to operate a push button (or push tab), one must push against something solid. In this case, it will be the soft underside of the chin or possibly the soft neck. It will be a minor miracle if one could push against much more solid bone, but there's little of that in the area of the helmet quick release buckle. Squeezing the quick release between the thumb and index finger will work for both the harpoon style and the push button style. However, a 4 year old doesn't have much reach or strength to be able to do that quite yet. That's why they need a parental assistance getting the helmet on and off. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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Sad helmet incident
On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 21:14:42 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 04:31:17 -0000 (UTC), news18 wrote: On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 16:31:33 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: In my never humble opinion, it would not be difficult to redesign the common "quick release buckle" so that it would release under tension or possibly when an added release cord and D-ring is pulled. As well as the harpoon style buckle that requires two fingers to reelease, there is a press button (tab actually) style of buckle that has been around as log as the harpoon style. caveat, i usualy only see them in sewing shops. I think I know what you mean, but I can't find a photo with Google Image search. I also seem to recall they only came in a rather large 1" webbing size, not the typical 5/8" helmet chin strap webbing size. 1" webbing is too wide for a chin strap. In any case, I don't believe a button will work. The button has to be operated by panicky 4 year old with small fingers and limited finger grip strength. At that age, the natural inclination is not to push on things, but rather to grab and pull. That's why I suggested a release cord and D-ring pull. If the chin strap is strangling you, the natural inclination is to grab the chin strap and pull. Manipulating a harpoon or button release is especially difficult because they can't be seen. I would not expect a panicky 4 year old to be able to do much more than grab whatever is choking them and pull. Another problem is that in order to operate a push button (or push tab), one must push against something solid. In this case, it will be the soft underside of the chin or possibly the soft neck. It will be a minor miracle if one could push against much more solid bone, but there's little of that in the area of the helmet quick release buckle. Squeezing the quick release between the thumb and index finger will work for both the harpoon style and the push button style. However, a 4 year old doesn't have much reach or strength to be able to do that quite yet. That's why they need a parental assistance getting the helmet on and off. The Vozz helmet has no chin strap :-) https://motorbikewriter.com/vozz-hel...no-chin-strap/ -- cheers, John B. |
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Sad helmet incident
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 12:36:03 +0700, John B.
wrote: The Vozz helmet has no chin strap :-) https://motorbikewriter.com/vozz-hel...no-chin-strap/ Probably works best on those who have no chin. There's also Darth Vader's helmet: https://www.google.com/search?q=darth+vader+helmet&tbm=isch and Star Wars Storm Troopers helmet: https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=star+wars+troopers+helmet The Troopers helmet splits vertically at the ear: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/66298/Hasbro-The-Clone-Wars-Aegs-5Plus.html Which one of these three helmets do you think a 4 year old might want to wear? I vote for the various Storm Troopers helmets. Soon, bicycle riders everywhere will be wearing Storm Trooper "safety" helmets. May the farce be with you. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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