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  #11  
Old January 23rd 20, 06:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Posts: 6,945
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 06:56:52 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Tuesday, January 21, 2020 at 12:25:17 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:06:06 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:04:05 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

Murder by cop. Not at all infrequent.

Fixed that for you.

The fact that you don't like cops doesn't change in the least that
people directly with police guns trained on them will make
threatening moves purposely having themselves killed. Whether you
like cops or not that is not murder.


Would it be murder if it was a police officer with gang member guns
trained on him, who then made a move perceived as threatening and got
shot? You bet it would. Prosecuted, signed, sealed, delivered to
jail. Most people wouldn't ask any questions (at least most people
who are white and middle class).

Cops get a pass on shooting people unnecessarily. The "fog of war,"
needing to make a "split second decision," "warrior" training, etc.,
etc. Not sure what the threat is when it's a kid who's unarmed, 50
feet away and facing away from the cop. Or when it's a black guy
seated in his car who lawfully informs the officer that he has a
conceal and carry permit and is armed, but is shot multiple times
within 30 seconds of that (with the victim's wife and child in the
car). Or when a woman calls the police about a neighborhood
disturbance that sounds like a person being harmed and is shot and
killed when she approaches the police car that responded to her call.
Or when it's a cop who tells his partner he's going to shoot and kill
the guy as they drive up in their cruiser, caught on the dash cam,
and then does so *and* plants a gun to implicate the victim as the
cause of the shooting.

I guess those are acceptable losses in an increasingly totalitarian
America.


So what you're saying is that most black people wouldn't agree with
the white people? What is plain is that you presently and probably for
your entire life have lived in some sort of lily white neighborhood,
have never lived with minorities and consider them akin to people from
another planet with different morals, ethics and an entire
civilization separate from yours.


You apparently just read some post other than mine, Tom.

FWIW, about half of my customers and coworkers are African-American and
African. Have been for almost 30 years. I grew up in a lily-white
neighborhood, to be sure. Out of the 40,000 people in my hometown
suburb of Chicago, probably fewer than 5% were other than Caucasian.
College offered a slight increase in diversity, but not much. So I had
to learn about diversity as a working adult.

Did you just run and an prove your racial bona fides by going to see
"Harriet" which was melodramatized to the point of having not the
slightest detail anywhere close to detail?


I don't even know WTF you're talking about here.
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  #12  
Old January 23rd 20, 06:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,945
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 21:12:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

Today in the Senate we heard Adam Schiff do what he does best - lie.
He did everything from straight out lying to misrepresentation of
things that others said by taking them completely out of context. This
was the Democrat Party in its finest hour.

I expect you could find a case of a Republican doing that but it is
unusual.


Still suffering from that irony deficiency, I see.

That is why the Democrats have been playing them like harps for the
last dozen years - the Republicans continue to bend over backwards in
the attempt to be reasonable and fair when the Democrats are using it
to be unreasonable and unfair. May God save the souls of the Democrats
because I will not. I thank God that he presented President Trump at
the correct time.


Oh my. Your sense of reality is so twisted and warped that it's really
quite astonishing.
  #13  
Old January 23rd 20, 07:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 23:43:46 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 06:08:46 +0700, John B
wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:25:10 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:06:06 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:04:05 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

Murder by cop. Not at all infrequent.

Fixed that for you.

The fact that you don't like cops doesn't change in the least that
people directly with police guns trained on them will make
threatening moves purposely having themselves killed. Whether you
like cops or not that is not murder.

Would it be murder if it was a police officer with gang member guns
trained on him, who then made a move perceived as threatening and got
shot? You bet it would. Prosecuted, signed, sealed, delivered to
jail. Most people wouldn't ask any questions (at least most people
who are white and middle class).

Cops get a pass on shooting people unnecessarily. The "fog of war,"
needing to make a "split second decision," "warrior" training, etc.,
etc. Not sure what the threat is when it's a kid who's unarmed, 50
feet away and facing away from the cop. Or when it's a black guy
seated in his car who lawfully informs the officer that he has a
conceal and carry permit and is armed, but is shot multiple times
within 30 seconds of that (with the victim's wife and child in the
car). Or when a woman calls the police about a neighborhood
disturbance that sounds like a person being harmed and is shot and
killed when she approaches the police car that responded to her call.
Or when it's a cop who tells his partner he's going to shoot and kill
the guy as they drive up in their cruiser, caught on the dash cam, and
then does so *and* plants a gun to implicate the victim as the cause
of the shooting.

I guess those are acceptable losses in an increasingly totalitarian
America.


Well, of course, the answer is to disarm the police.


No. It might work in London (are bobbies still unarmed?) but America is
one of the most violent societies on the planet, except for those
engaged in actual war.

Disarming seems unwise and too "one size fits all." Better training
including resources to understand and cope with problems like mental
illness in the community they serve would be a better choice. Learn to
ask questions before shooting. In our area there are social workers
paired with police officers for calls where the suspect is known to be
or is thought likely to be mentally ill. This seems to have reduced
these incidents, although it's early days and whether or not the program
works and is sustainable is yet to be seen, but it's promising.


I was replying to the guy that highlighted all the "murders by cop".
Simply taking away the cop's guns will solve his problems...
As he didn't mention any other problems either did I.
But of course as soon as the police lose their guns crime will
increase and than he'll be complaining about that.

Some folks ain't never happy :-)

Back in the day the police walked a beat and the cop knew all about
who should be there and what they should be doing and everybody knew
him. I suspect that law enforcement was a totally different thing then
today where the average citizen's only contact with the police is
seeing them ride by in their "cruiser".
--
cheers,

John B.

  #14  
Old January 23rd 20, 12:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On Thursday, 23 January 2020 01:04:18 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 23:43:46 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 06:08:46 +0700, John B
wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:25:10 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:06:06 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:04:05 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

Murder by cop. Not at all infrequent.

Fixed that for you.

The fact that you don't like cops doesn't change in the least that
people directly with police guns trained on them will make
threatening moves purposely having themselves killed. Whether you
like cops or not that is not murder.

Would it be murder if it was a police officer with gang member guns
trained on him, who then made a move perceived as threatening and got
shot? You bet it would. Prosecuted, signed, sealed, delivered to
jail. Most people wouldn't ask any questions (at least most people
who are white and middle class).

Cops get a pass on shooting people unnecessarily. The "fog of war,"
needing to make a "split second decision," "warrior" training, etc.,
etc. Not sure what the threat is when it's a kid who's unarmed, 50
feet away and facing away from the cop. Or when it's a black guy
seated in his car who lawfully informs the officer that he has a
conceal and carry permit and is armed, but is shot multiple times
within 30 seconds of that (with the victim's wife and child in the
car). Or when a woman calls the police about a neighborhood
disturbance that sounds like a person being harmed and is shot and
killed when she approaches the police car that responded to her call.
Or when it's a cop who tells his partner he's going to shoot and kill
the guy as they drive up in their cruiser, caught on the dash cam, and
then does so *and* plants a gun to implicate the victim as the cause
of the shooting.

I guess those are acceptable losses in an increasingly totalitarian
America.

Well, of course, the answer is to disarm the police.


No. It might work in London (are bobbies still unarmed?) but America is
one of the most violent societies on the planet, except for those
engaged in actual war.

Disarming seems unwise and too "one size fits all." Better training
including resources to understand and cope with problems like mental
illness in the community they serve would be a better choice. Learn to
ask questions before shooting. In our area there are social workers
paired with police officers for calls where the suspect is known to be
or is thought likely to be mentally ill. This seems to have reduced
these incidents, although it's early days and whether or not the program
works and is sustainable is yet to be seen, but it's promising.


I was replying to the guy that highlighted all the "murders by cop".
Simply taking away the cop's guns will solve his problems...
As he didn't mention any other problems either did I.
But of course as soon as the police lose their guns crime will
increase and than he'll be complaining about that.

Some folks ain't never happy :-)

Back in the day the police walked a beat and the cop knew all about
who should be there and what they should be doing and everybody knew
him. I suspect that law enforcement was a totally different thing then
today where the average citizen's only contact with the police is
seeing them ride by in their "cruiser".
--
cheers,

John B.


I had a friend who was a sergeant in the Toronto, Canada police force. He said that one of the biggest mistakes in policing was getting rid of the beat officers. He said that often beat officers could intercede and prevent someone from doing a crime because the beat officer would know the person and could often tell when something was bothering them enough that turning to crime seemed to be their only option.

Cheers
  #15  
Old January 23rd 20, 04:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On 1/22/2020 11:43 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 06:08:46 +0700, John B
wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:25:10 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:06:06 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:04:05 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

Murder by cop. Not at all infrequent.

Fixed that for you.

The fact that you don't like cops doesn't change in the least that
people directly with police guns trained on them will make
threatening moves purposely having themselves killed. Whether you
like cops or not that is not murder.

Would it be murder if it was a police officer with gang member guns
trained on him, who then made a move perceived as threatening and got
shot? You bet it would. Prosecuted, signed, sealed, delivered to
jail. Most people wouldn't ask any questions (at least most people
who are white and middle class).

Cops get a pass on shooting people unnecessarily. The "fog of war,"
needing to make a "split second decision," "warrior" training, etc.,
etc. Not sure what the threat is when it's a kid who's unarmed, 50
feet away and facing away from the cop. Or when it's a black guy
seated in his car who lawfully informs the officer that he has a
conceal and carry permit and is armed, but is shot multiple times
within 30 seconds of that (with the victim's wife and child in the
car). Or when a woman calls the police about a neighborhood
disturbance that sounds like a person being harmed and is shot and
killed when she approaches the police car that responded to her call.
Or when it's a cop who tells his partner he's going to shoot and kill
the guy as they drive up in their cruiser, caught on the dash cam, and
then does so *and* plants a gun to implicate the victim as the cause
of the shooting.

I guess those are acceptable losses in an increasingly totalitarian
America.


Well, of course, the answer is to disarm the police.


No. It might work in London (are bobbies still unarmed?) but America is
one of the most violent societies on the planet, except for those
engaged in actual war.

Disarming seems unwise and too "one size fits all." Better training
including resources to understand and cope with problems like mental
illness in the community they serve would be a better choice. Learn to
ask questions before shooting. In our area there are social workers
paired with police officers for calls where the suspect is known to be
or is thought likely to be mentally ill. This seems to have reduced
these incidents, although it's early days and whether or not the program
works and is sustainable is yet to be seen, but it's promising.




"America is one of the most violent societies on the planet"


Your premise is greatly overstated. US rate is lower than
Greenland for example:
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/ind...RC.P5/rankings

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #16  
Old January 23rd 20, 06:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,093
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

John B. wrote:

But of course as soon as the police lose their guns crime will

increase
and than he'll be complaining about that.


Places where cops don't usually have guns exhibit much lower crime rates than places where they do. Of course, those places also have sane ideas about permitting real people to have guns in public, not just cops.
  #17  
Old January 23rd 20, 07:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On 1/23/2020 6:47 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 23 January 2020 01:04:18 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 23:43:46 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 06:08:46 +0700, John B
wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:25:10 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:06:06 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:04:05 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

Murder by cop. Not at all infrequent.

Fixed that for you.

The fact that you don't like cops doesn't change in the least that
people directly with police guns trained on them will make
threatening moves purposely having themselves killed. Whether you
like cops or not that is not murder.

Would it be murder if it was a police officer with gang member guns
trained on him, who then made a move perceived as threatening and got
shot? You bet it would. Prosecuted, signed, sealed, delivered to
jail. Most people wouldn't ask any questions (at least most people
who are white and middle class).

Cops get a pass on shooting people unnecessarily. The "fog of war,"
needing to make a "split second decision," "warrior" training, etc.,
etc. Not sure what the threat is when it's a kid who's unarmed, 50
feet away and facing away from the cop. Or when it's a black guy
seated in his car who lawfully informs the officer that he has a
conceal and carry permit and is armed, but is shot multiple times
within 30 seconds of that (with the victim's wife and child in the
car). Or when a woman calls the police about a neighborhood
disturbance that sounds like a person being harmed and is shot and
killed when she approaches the police car that responded to her call.
Or when it's a cop who tells his partner he's going to shoot and kill
the guy as they drive up in their cruiser, caught on the dash cam, and
then does so *and* plants a gun to implicate the victim as the cause
of the shooting.

I guess those are acceptable losses in an increasingly totalitarian
America.

Well, of course, the answer is to disarm the police.

No. It might work in London (are bobbies still unarmed?) but America is
one of the most violent societies on the planet, except for those
engaged in actual war.

Disarming seems unwise and too "one size fits all." Better training
including resources to understand and cope with problems like mental
illness in the community they serve would be a better choice. Learn to
ask questions before shooting. In our area there are social workers
paired with police officers for calls where the suspect is known to be
or is thought likely to be mentally ill. This seems to have reduced
these incidents, although it's early days and whether or not the program
works and is sustainable is yet to be seen, but it's promising.


I was replying to the guy that highlighted all the "murders by cop".
Simply taking away the cop's guns will solve his problems...
As he didn't mention any other problems either did I.
But of course as soon as the police lose their guns crime will
increase and than he'll be complaining about that.

Some folks ain't never happy :-)

Back in the day the police walked a beat and the cop knew all about
who should be there and what they should be doing and everybody knew
him. I suspect that law enforcement was a totally different thing then
today where the average citizen's only contact with the police is
seeing them ride by in their "cruiser".
--
cheers,

John B.


I had a friend who was a sergeant in the Toronto, Canada police force. He said that one of the biggest mistakes in policing was getting rid of the beat officers. He said that often beat officers could intercede and prevent someone from doing a crime because the beat officer would know the person and could often tell when something was bothering them enough that turning to crime seemed to be their only option.


One of my best friends is a former beat cop and (just retired) professor
of criminal justice. He tends to agree with you. A cop on beat can be
perceived as a fellow human just doing his job, someone you can talk to.
A cop in a car is remote and anonymous. He may be subject to the same
psychology that makes civilians in cars feel anonymous and aggressive.

My friend has told stories about his experiences subduing aggressive
guys on the street and marching them back to the station for booking,
using only manual holds to control them.

But that was long enough ago that he could be reasonably sure the perp
wasn't going to try to shoot him.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #18  
Old January 23rd 20, 07:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On 1/23/2020 11:07 AM, Chalo wrote:
John B. wrote:

But of course as soon as the police lose their guns crime will

increase
and than he'll be complaining about that.


Places where cops don't usually have guns exhibit much lower crime rates than places where they do. Of course, those places also have sane ideas about permitting real people to have guns in public, not just cops.


"sane ideas"


Sanity, like common sense, is a rare and diminishing thing:

Consider for example Oregon
https://nypost.com/2020/01/23/perv-s...home-invasion/

in contrast to Florida:
https://www.iheart.com/content/2019-...-home-invader/

'When seconds matter, 911 is just a few hours away!'



--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #19  
Old January 23rd 20, 07:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On 1/23/2020 10:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:

"America is one of the most violent societies on the planet"


Your premise is greatly overstated. US rate is lower than Greenland for
example:
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/ind...RC.P5/rankings


Lower? Looks like a tie, 5.30 to 5.30, at least to three significant
figures. And none of the places ranking worse look like bastions of
civility.

OTOH, Canada (very similar except for gun laws) is just 1.80, far lower
than the U.S. And France, Denmark, U.K., Italy, Australia, New Zealand
etc. are all far lower than that.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #20  
Old January 23rd 20, 09:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Bicycle Parts in the News

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 9:54:25 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 06:56:52 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Tuesday, January 21, 2020 at 12:25:17 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:06:06 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:04:05 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

Murder by cop. Not at all infrequent.

Fixed that for you.

The fact that you don't like cops doesn't change in the least that
people directly with police guns trained on them will make
threatening moves purposely having themselves killed. Whether you
like cops or not that is not murder.

Would it be murder if it was a police officer with gang member guns
trained on him, who then made a move perceived as threatening and got
shot? You bet it would. Prosecuted, signed, sealed, delivered to
jail. Most people wouldn't ask any questions (at least most people
who are white and middle class).

Cops get a pass on shooting people unnecessarily. The "fog of war,"
needing to make a "split second decision," "warrior" training, etc.,
etc. Not sure what the threat is when it's a kid who's unarmed, 50
feet away and facing away from the cop. Or when it's a black guy
seated in his car who lawfully informs the officer that he has a
conceal and carry permit and is armed, but is shot multiple times
within 30 seconds of that (with the victim's wife and child in the
car). Or when a woman calls the police about a neighborhood
disturbance that sounds like a person being harmed and is shot and
killed when she approaches the police car that responded to her call.
Or when it's a cop who tells his partner he's going to shoot and kill
the guy as they drive up in their cruiser, caught on the dash cam,
and then does so *and* plants a gun to implicate the victim as the
cause of the shooting.

I guess those are acceptable losses in an increasingly totalitarian
America.


So what you're saying is that most black people wouldn't agree with
the white people? What is plain is that you presently and probably for
your entire life have lived in some sort of lily white neighborhood,
have never lived with minorities and consider them akin to people from
another planet with different morals, ethics and an entire
civilization separate from yours.


You apparently just read some post other than mine, Tom.


Perhaps, but the impression I got was that the cops commit crimes and are let off by a white establishment. The facts are that this does happen and far more commonly than might be thought.

But you are certainly not bringing any news to the party and because you're white doesn't mean that somehow your claims have any more validity than the black community.

FWIW, about half of my customers and coworkers are African-American and
African. Have been for almost 30 years. I grew up in a lily-white
neighborhood, to be sure. Out of the 40,000 people in my hometown
suburb of Chicago, probably fewer than 5% were other than Caucasian.
College offered a slight increase in diversity, but not much. So I had
to learn about diversity as a working adult.


Well, I do see black gangs and Hispanic gangs but these are special cases. Otherwise people are people and you shouldn't even notice their race or religion unless there is some special reason to. Though if you live and work in Chicago I suppose that like here the criminal element it largely black which does cause you to take notice.

Did you just run and an prove your racial bona fides by going to see
"Harriet" which was melodramatized to the point of having not the
slightest detail anywhere close to detail?


I don't even know WTF you're talking about here.


Let me correct that: Did you print that to prove your pro-black bona fides after seeing a movie specifically designed to increase racial tension by misrepresenting Harriet Tubman who was a heroine in real life without adding mythological nonsense?

If I misunderstood you perhaps it had to do with what the conversation's directions appeared to be.
 




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