#11
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"Divisive Issue"
On Feb 27, 2:53 pm, "pmh" wrote:
On Feb 27, 1:09 pm, "Olebiker" wrote: Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks and clovis pointed spears. There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000 years ago. OK. What point are you making with this observation? I'm missing it. |
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#12
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"Divisive Issue"
On 27 Feb 2007 10:09:30 -0800, "Olebiker" wrote:
On Feb 27, 11:03 am, Mike Vandeman wrote: Yes, they are. You don't become a native species the day you arrive! It takes a long time for the natives to adapt to the newcomer. Biology texts are silent on this issue, especially on the issue of humans as an exotic invasive, because they don't want to tell the truth about humans. It's doubtful that ANY species other than bacteria and viruses can change fast enough to adapt to humans. The North American megafauna obviously couldn't. They went extinct. If you truly believe this, why haven't you moved back to Olduvai Gorge? You obviously haven't read my paper. No matter where humans are, we change too rapidly for anything but bacteria and viruses to adapt to (successfully) us. Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks and clovis pointed spears. They we near Port Townsend, WA was a mammoth with a spear point in its elbow, proving the point. === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#13
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"Divisive Issue"
On 27 Feb 2007 11:53:26 -0800, "pmh" wrote:
On Feb 27, 1:09 pm, "Olebiker" wrote: Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks and clovis pointed spears. There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000 years ago. Even 50,000 years (when Homo sapiens first left Africa), isn't long enough for other species to evolve successful adaptations to us. PH === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#14
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"Divisive Issue"
On 27 Feb 2007 11:55:13 -0800, "pmh" wrote:
On Feb 27, 11:03 am, Mike Vandeman wrote: It's doubtful that ANY species other than bacteria and viruses can change fast enough to adapt to humans. Rats and cockroaches seem to have managed just fine. Yes, but not by adapting to us. They were lucky enough to already able to deal with us. PH === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#15
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"Divisive Issue"
On Feb 27, 3:35 pm, "Olebiker" wrote:
On Feb 27, 2:53 pm, "pmh" wrote: On Feb 27, 1:09 pm, "Olebiker" wrote: Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks and clovis pointed spears. There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000 years ago. OK. What point are you making with this observation? I'm missing it. You have a potential time span about 75 times as large within which to speculate. PH |
#16
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"Divisive Issue"
On 27 Feb 2007 17:40:08 -0800, "pmh" wrote:
On Feb 27, 3:35 pm, "Olebiker" wrote: On Feb 27, 2:53 pm, "pmh" wrote: On Feb 27, 1:09 pm, "Olebiker" wrote: Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks and clovis pointed spears. There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000 years ago. OK. What point are you making with this observation? I'm missing it. You have a potential time span about 75 times as large within which to speculate. Try again, this time in English. PH === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#17
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"Divisive Issue"
Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to
extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks and clovis pointed spears. There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000 years ago. OK. What point are you making with this observation? I'm missing it. You have a potential time span about 75 times as large within which to speculate. Try again, this time in English. The problem here is that "right" is a human concept, animals, whether native or invasive have no concept of it. Might makes right is one of the most basic laws of nature, along with "adapt or die", and "everything that lives, dies", nature is not harmonious or peaceful, it is brutal and murderous, we're just the latest version, Killer, V.25. all species in any location were once "invasive" and it's only for our own convenience that we declare invasive species bad. |
#18
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"Divisive Issue"
On 28 Feb 2007 09:53:06 -0800, "bill"
wrote: Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks and clovis pointed spears. There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000 years ago. OK. What point are you making with this observation? I'm missing it. You have a potential time span about 75 times as large within which to speculate. Try again, this time in English. The problem here is that "right" is a human concept, Right. It's called "morality". That doesn't mean you can dismiss it. animals, whether native or invasive have no concept of it. Might makes right is one of the most basic laws of nature, along with "adapt or die", and "everything that lives, dies", nature is not harmonious or peaceful, it is brutal and murderous, we're just the latest version, Killer, V.25. But humans have a concept called "morality", under which might does NOT make right. Or had you forgotten that? Most mountain bikers conveniently forget things like that. all species in any location were once "invasive" True. It takes a lot of time before they can be called "native". That doesn't excuse what humans are doing to nature. and it's only for our own convenience that we declare invasive species bad. Hogwash. Exotics can do an enormous amount of harm to native species. Humans are the worst expotic invasive of all, although most biologists aren't honest enough to admit it. You cite wildlife when you want to excuse human rapaciousness, but you conveniently forget wildlife when it comes to evaluating human impacts: most species do very little harm to other species. Even predators are generally incapable of driving a species to extinction, UNLIKE HUMANS. === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#19
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"Divisive Issue"
Disregard my earlier message.
Just kill yourself. It's a lost cause, but here goes your logic applied to you: Premises: All invasive species should not exist outside of their native range. Humans are an invasive species outside of the tiny native range. Mike Vandeman is a human. Mike Vandeman insists on living outside of the native human range. Conclusion: Mike Vandeman should not exist. QED On Feb 28, 2:55 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote: Hogwash. Exotics can do an enormous amount ov harm to native species. Humans r Þ worst expotic invasive ov al, alÞo most biologists aren't honest enuff to admit it. u cite wildlife wen u want to excuse human rapaciousness, but u conveniently forget wildlife wen it comes to evaluating human impacts: most species do very litl harm to oÞr species. Even predators r generally incapable ov driving a species to extinction, UNLIKE HUMANS. |
#20
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"Divisive Issue"
On Feb 28, 7:51 pm, "JSH" wrote:
You are attempting rational discourse with an irrational being. PH |
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