Frank Olson & Peter Clinch & the Muslims

There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to
Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of the
Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism. Ogg and I have tried to point
out that the Muslims are by no means peace loving and in fact are part of
the problem throughout the world. Here is an article which I am posting in
full so that all the dunderheads can get a clue about what is happening in
the world. Even the Dutch, the most tolerant and liberal people in the
world, are starting to have second thoughts about them. Read the article and
weep - for the West and for civilization.

For Dutch, anger battles with tolerance
By Craig S. Smith The New York Times
Thursday, November 11, 2004


AMSTERDAM Anger toward the Netherlands' Muslim community percolated among
the crowd that gathered outside the funeral for the Dutch filmmaker Theo van
Gogh, who was killed by an Islamic extremist a week ago.

The public debate over how conservative Islam fits into Europe's most
tolerant, liberal society had already become a no-holds-barred affair before
the killing of van Gogh, who had publicly and repeatedly used epithets
against Muslims. But his killing has now polarized the country, giving the
rest of Europe a disturbing glimpse of what may be in store if relations
with the continent's growing immigrant communities are not managed more
adeptly.

The anger is such that for the second time in two days an Islamic elementary
school was attacked Tuesday, this time in Uden, part of what Dutch
authorities fear are reprisals after van Gogh's killing. The authorities
said that Muslim sites had been the targets of a half-dozen attacks in the
past week.

In apparent retaliation, arsonists attempted to burn down Protestant
churches in Rotterdam, Utrecht and Amersfoort, the police said.

The attacks have scratched the patina of tolerance on which the Dutch have
long prided themselves, particularly here in their principal city, where the
scent of hashish trails in the air, prostitutes beckon from storefront
brothels and Hell's Angels live side by side with Hare Krishnas. But many
Dutch now say that for years that tradition of tolerance suppressed an open
debate about the challenges of integrating conservative Muslims.

Jan Colijn, 46, a bookkeeper from the central Dutch town of Gorinchem who
was at the funeral Tuesday night, complained that the Netherlands' generous
social welfare system had allowed Muslim immigrants to isolate themselves.
Because of that, "there is a kind of Muslim fascism emerging here," he said.
"The government must find a way to break these communities open."

Another man, who declined to give his name, was more succinct: "Now, it's
war."

For many years, such criticism of Islam and Islamic customs, even among
Dutch extremists, was considered taboo, despite deep frustrations that had
built up against conservative Islam in the country.

Many here say that began to change after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist
attacks in the United States, when the Netherlands, like many other
countries, began to consider the dangers of political Islam seriously. The
debate fueled an anti-immigration movement and helped propel the career of
the populist politician Pim Fortuyn, who was murdered by an environmental
activist shortly before national elections in 2002.

By all accounts in the Netherlands, Fortuyn's murder removed any remaining
brakes on the debate surrounding immigrants.

"After Pim Fortuyn's murder, there were no limitations on what you could
say," said Edwin Bakker, a terrorism expert at the Netherlands Institute of
International Relations. "It has become a climate in which insulting people
is the norm."

He and others said the public discourse, even among members of government,
reached an unprecedented pitch and included language that went far beyond
the limits set for public forums in the United States.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a member of Parliament and one of a handful of politicians
threatened with death by Islamic extremists, publicly called the prophet
Muhammad a "pervert" and a "tyrant." She made a film with van Gogh
condemning sexual abuse among Muslim women, who were portrayed with Koranic
verses written on their bare skin.

Van Gogh himself was one of the most outspoken critics of fundamentalist
Muslims and favored an epithet for conservative Muslims that referred to
bestiality with a goat. He used the term often in his public statements,
including a column he wrote for a widely read free newspaper and during
radio broadcasts and television appearances.

The cumulative effect made van Gogh, a distant relation of the painter
Vincent van Gogh, a kind of cult clown on one side of the debate, and a
reviled hatemonger on the other.

The debate became so caustic that the Dutch intelligence service, AIVD,
issued a report in March warning that the unrestrained language could
encourage radicalization of the country's Muslim youth and drive individuals
into the arms of terrorist recruiters. The agency has warned repeatedly in
recent years that such recruiters are active in the Netherlands and
elsewhere in Europe.

While only about 20 percent of the Netherlands' estimated 900,000 Muslims
practice their religion, according to one government study, officials say as
many as 5 percent of Muslims in the country follow a conservative form of
Islam. Most are from the Netherlands' Moroccan community, which has its
roots in the Rif, an impoverished, mountainous Berber region in the north.

There are about 300,000 people of Moroccan descent in the Netherlands today,
and the intensified anti-immigration debate has alienated many of them from
Dutch society and, many people argue, has also helped fragment the Muslim
community.

Jean Tillie, a professor of political science at the University of
Amsterdam, says that the debate has broken down a network that connected
even the most extremist Muslim groups to the more moderate voices within the
Muslim community. He cited an Amsterdam government advisory board that
brought together all kinds of Moroccans and fostered communication and
cohesion within the Muslim community.

"Those groups participating didn't agree with each other, but they met
together with the collective mission of advising the city government," he
said.

The board was abolished a year ago, he says. He claims that funds for other
ethnic organizations have shrunk and outreach policies have also been
abandoned.



At El Tawheed mosque, considered by many people to be the epicenter of
extremism in Amsterdam, Farid Zaari, the mosque's spokesman, argues that
pressure from the debate has hindered the Muslim community's ability to
control its radical youth.

"If we bring these people into the mosque, it is possible to change their
thoughts, but few mosques dare to because if you do, you're branded," he
said.

Dutch media reports insist that van Gogh's killer attended the mosque, and
though Zaari says the mosque has no record of his ever being there, he said
that political leaders and the media should encourage the mosque to reach
out to the community's radical youth, rather than stigmatizing it for doing
so.



The mosque was previously associated with a Saudi-based charity, Al
Haramain, which American and Saudi Arabian officials accused earlier this
year of aiding Islamic terrorists. The mosque has since severed its ties
with the charity, but more recently it has been criticized for selling books
espousing extremist views, including female circumcision and the punishment
of homosexuals by throwing them off tall buildings.

Several legislators have called for the mosque to be shut down, but under
the Dutch constitution it is difficult to do.

Zaari admits that the Muslim community was slow to respond to the fears
within Dutch society. "We didn't feel it was our responsibility to bridge
the gap, but now, with the murder, the gap has gotten wider," he said. "All
of us want to begin a dialogue now, but the language of the political right
is too extreme, and that's preventing discussion," he said. "We all have to
cool down and be careful what we say."

The problem is how to bridge a gap that has yawned dangerously since van
Gogh's murder.

The Amsterdam Council of Churches published paid notices in some Dutch
newspapers pledging solidarity with the Muslim community. But the
government's response has been to promise more money for fighting terrorism
and stronger immigration laws.

"Islam is the most hated word in the country at this point," said Bakker,
the terrorism expert.





Copyright © 2004 The International Herald Tribune | www.iht.com

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...
There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to
Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of the
Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism. Ogg and I have tried to
point out that the Muslims are by no means peace loving and in fact are
part of the problem throughout the world. Here is an article which I am
posting in full so that all the dunderheads can get a clue about what is
happening in the world. Even the Dutch, the most tolerant and liberal
people in the world, are starting to have second thoughts about them. Read
the article and weep - for the West and for civilization.


You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New
York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the
place for the next few days.

http://www.nysun.com/article/4623

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600, "Ogg Oggibly"
wrote in message :

You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New
York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the
place for the next few days.

I hope that when you die nobody dances on your grave in that way. I
suspect that you are too insignificant for it to be a realistic
prospect.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600
"Ogg Oggibly" wrote:


"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...
There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to

Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of
the Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism. Ogg and I have tried
to point out that the Muslims are by no means peace loving and in fact
are part of the problem throughout the world. Here is an article which
I am posting in full so that all the dunderheads can get a clue about
what is happening in the world. Even the Dutch, the most tolerant and
liberal people in the world, are starting to have second thoughts about
them. Read the article and weep - for the West and for civilization.


You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New

York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over
the place for the next few days.


I don't think either side of that conflict can claim clean hands and
clear conscience. Or even admirable intentions.

Just what you get when Yahweh tells two groups of people that the same
chunk of land is both holy and theirs alone.

Interesting factoid - under the ottoman empire, jews had preferential
status, of a sort. Imported goods were taxed at three different rates - the
most preferential rate for islamic importers, the least preferential rate
for christians and other infidels, and a middle rate for jews.

Additionally, while christians and other infidels were not allowed to
enter the empire, jews could come and go as they pleased and were often
employed as emissaries and business managers, as the citizens of the
ottoman empire considered the outside world unclean and preferred that if
someone had to travel, someone else should do it.

When the nazis entered the middle east, they spread a great deal of
anti-semetic propaganda in the local languages. Some historians point to
this as the initial breakdown in relations.

Palestinian jews who were living on the land that is now Israel do not
enjoy the same social status as western european jews now living there. How
did that happen? Could it be because they have darker skin?

Brazilian jews descended from native brazilians who were converted to
judaism hundreds of years ago are routinely denied citizenship. Also
mexican jews descended from spanish jews that fled persecution in spain
hundreds of years ago by emigrating to mexico are denied citizenship.
(incidentally, it didn't help - the spanish government sent ships to mexico
to persecute and kill them there, too.)

A few years ago there was a court ruling in israel denying citizenship
to members of an african tribe who practice an aincent form of judaism.

How can all this be? I thought it was about religion.

My neighbor is the son of slavic jews that emigrated to israel and
prefers living in religiously repressed Utah to living in religiously
repressed Israel. How can that be?

Is it wrong for me to believe that the color of your skin, the language
you speak, your parents country of origin, none of these things should have
any bearing on your status in a modern society?

If this is how they treat people of their own religion, boy, imagine if
you're the wrong religion. Apparently you're not even usually allowed to
own your house or get a job.

I can't condone anything the PLO has ever done. But i understand why
they're so ****ed off.

Ogg Oggibly wrote:

You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New
York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the
place for the next few days.

http://www.nysun.com/article/4623



While one cannot admire how the Palestinian leadership has handled
things, one also cannot admire the Israeli leadership.

But there may be hope down. One of my brothers has been working and
living in Isarael for the past four years, and told me an interesting
thing recently: the wise Isaelies are learning to to get along with the
Palestinians that live inside their borders. And the reason?
The Palestinian birthrate is four times that of the Israelis, and
unless there's a change they will be a minority in their own country
within fifty years. So, the young Jews are realizing that ****ing off
the Arabs is going to be to their own long-term detriment, unless of
course they try to keep comtrol by creating some kind of apartheid state.

Mark

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600, "Ogg Oggibly"
wrote in message :

You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New
York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over
the
place for the next few days.

I hope that when you die nobody dances on your grave in that way.

Guy. You are having those mood swings again. Day before yesterday you said
something to the effect of you didn't give a **** about Arafat, the
unaccounted for 3 billion dollars, his wife Sue, excuse me make that Suha,
or his wannabee suscessors. Today your pannies are all in a wad because of
an obit in a New York newspaper. I didn't write it for Allah's sake.


I suspect that you are too insignificant for it to be a realistic
prospect.


No argument there. I am totally insignificant. I've never massacred an
Israeli Olympic team or recruited mentally retarded 16 year olds promising
them paradise and 72 virgins if they would strap a bomb to their waist and
detonate it on a bus full Israeli school children, etc., etc.

So no - no one will be dancing on my grave in that way.

Ogg O

Mr. Ed Dolan wrote:

There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to
Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of the
Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism....

Let it be noted that Mr. Ed Dolan is starting an off-topic political
thread, thereby voiding his former statement that he only goes off-topic
to respond to "liberal" statements.

--
Tom Sherman
"Use your head, Mr. Ed" – Slugger

"Mark Rehder" wrote in message
...
Ogg Oggibly wrote:

You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New
York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over
the place for the next few days.

http://www.nysun.com/article/4623

While one cannot admire how the Palestinian leadership has handled things,
one also cannot admire the Israeli leadership.
But there may be hope down. One of my brothers has been working and
living in Isarael for the past four years, and told me an interesting
thing recently: the wise Isaelies are learning to to get along with the
Palestinians that live inside their borders. And the reason? The
Palestinian birthrate is four times that of the Israelis, and unless
there's a change they will be a minority in their own country within fifty
years. So, the young Jews are realizing that ****ing off the Arabs is
going to be to their own long-term detriment, unless of course they try to
keep comtrol by creating some kind of apartheid state.

Israel needs to keep all Arabs out of Israel forever. Israel is a state for
Jews only. The Arabs have all the rest of the Middle East in which to live.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600, "Ogg Oggibly"
wrote in message :

You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New
York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over
the
place for the next few days.

I hope that when you die nobody dances on your grave in that way. I
suspect that you are too insignificant for it to be a realistic
prospect.

Arafat was nothing if not a terrorist. That is all anyone ever has to know
about him. Why the Europeans ever liked him is beyond comprehension. I
attribute it to Jew hatred which is ever latent in Europe.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

"Eric Jorgensen" wrote in message
news:20041111151019.3c219463@wafer...
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600
"Ogg Oggibly" wrote:


"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...
There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to

Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of
the Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism. Ogg and I have tried
to point out that the Muslims are by no means peace loving and in fact
are part of the problem throughout the world. Here is an article which
I am posting in full so that all the dunderheads can get a clue about
what is happening in the world. Even the Dutch, the most tolerant and
liberal people in the world, are starting to have second thoughts about
them. Read the article and weep - for the West and for civilization.


You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New

York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over
the place for the next few days.


I don't think either side of that conflict can claim clean hands and
clear conscience. Or even admirable intentions.

Just what you get when Yahweh tells two groups of people that the same
chunk of land is both holy and theirs alone.

Palestine and the Palestinians did not even exist as a conscious entity
until the Jews laid claim to the land.
[...]

A few years ago there was a court ruling in israel denying citizenship
to members of an african tribe who practice an aincent form of judaism.

How can all this be? I thought it was about religion.

Don't be such an asshole. Being Jew is much more than just religion. It is
about an ethnic group that goes back thousands of years. Those Africans were
no more Jews than you and I.
[...]

I can't condone anything the PLO has ever done. But i understand why
they're so ****ed off.

Israel ought to remove all the Arabs off any land they consider to be their
own. They can all go to Jordan and rot there. Israel has every right to do
this by their military victories. In the end, might makes right. The main
thing Israel should never do is listen to whimpering liberals like you.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota