Lace-over with small ERD difference

On Nov 29, 6:24*pm, landotter wrote:
On Nov 29, 6:55*pm, Jim West wrote:

I have a Mavic CPX21 rim that came with my bike that has cracked after
28,000 miles. I'd like to do a lace-over with a new rim, but it looks
like the CPX21 was OEM and I don't know if I can get one. The CPX22 is
available, though, which looks like pretty much the same rim but with
an eyelet. However, Damon Rinard's spoke-length calculator database
gives the ERD of the CXP21 as 601.5 and the CXP22S as 599.5.

Close enough for *me*. Have a look at the back of the nipples and see
how far the spokes are threaded before you make your decision. CXP22
isn't eyeletted AFAIK.

CXP-22 is a single eyelet rim.

On 2008-11-30, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
On Nov 29, 5:55Â*pm, Jim West wrote:
I have a Mavic CPX21 rim that came with my bike that has cracked after
28,000 miles. I'd like to do a lace-over with a new rim, but it looks
like the CPX21 was OEM and I don't know if I can get one. The CPX22 is
available, though, which looks like pretty much the same rim but with
an eyelet. However, Damon Rinard's spoke-length calculator database
gives the ERD of the CXP21 as 601.5 and the CXP22S as 599.5. Is that
too much different? If so, does anyone have any other suggestions? It
is for a real wheel, Ultegra hub, 9 speed, purchased in early 2002, and
I don't race.

Open Pro is 603mm erd, what we use when we build them.

Would there be an advantage to going to the more expensive Open Pro over
the CXP22 or Alex R390 for a non-racer? I do do some fairly fast rides
in the summer when I'm in shape (22 mph century last July, by far the
ride of my life which I'm still wondering how I did it), but sprints and
attacks are the last things on my mind. If I had to list my priorities in
order it would be

1. Reliability (28 k miles seemed to be a good reason to stay with a CXP2x)
2. Laceover build
3. Cost (I am on the frugal, if not cheap, side)
4. Carried by my LBS (although frugal, I will pay a few extra $$$ for the
same product to support them)
5. Will it give me that last little bit in a sprint
6. "Style"

On Nov 30, 2:52 pm, Jim West wrote:
On 2008-11-30, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

On Nov 29, 5:55 pm, Jim West wrote:
I have a Mavic CPX21 rim that came with my bike that has cracked after
28,000 miles. I'd like to do a lace-over with a new rim, but it looks
like the CPX21 was OEM and I don't know if I can get one. The CPX22 is
available, though, which looks like pretty much the same rim but with
an eyelet. However, Damon Rinard's spoke-length calculator database
gives the ERD of the CXP21 as 601.5 and the CXP22S as 599.5. Is that
too much different? If so, does anyone have any other suggestions? It
is for a real wheel, Ultegra hub, 9 speed, purchased in early 2002, and
I don't race.

Open Pro is 603mm erd, what we use when we build them.

Would there be an advantage to going to the more expensive Open Pro over
the CXP22 or Alex R390 for a non-racer? I do do some fairly fast rides
in the summer when I'm in shape (22 mph century last July, by far the
ride of my life which I'm still wondering how I did it), but sprints and
attacks are the last things on my mind. If I had to list my priorities in
order it would be

1. Reliability (28 k miles seemed to be a good reason to stay with a CXP2x)
2. Laceover build
3. Cost (I am on the frugal, if not cheap, side)
4. Carried by my LBS (although frugal, I will pay a few extra $$$ for the
same product to support them)
5. Will it give me that last little bit in a sprint
6. "Style"

I don't see where you've mentioned actually measuring the spokes on
the used wheel. Who's do say they follow the Spocalc advice? If you
were in the DC area you might have to go to several lbs's before you
found one with spokes of the correct length and type. But, that's
because $2000 wheel sets drive out $600 ones.

Harry Travis

On Nov 30, 12:52*pm, Jim West wrote:
On 2008-11-30, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

On Nov 29, 5:55*pm, Jim West wrote:
I have a Mavic CPX21 rim that came with my bike that has cracked after
28,000 miles. I'd like to do a lace-over with a new rim, but it looks
like the CPX21 was OEM and I don't know if I can get one. The CPX22 is
available, though, which looks like pretty much the same rim but with
an eyelet. However, Damon Rinard's spoke-length calculator database
gives the ERD of the CXP21 as 601.5 and the CXP22S as 599.5. Is that
too much different? If so, does anyone have any other suggestions? It
is for a real wheel, Ultegra hub, 9 speed, purchased in early 2002, and
I don't race.

Open Pro is 603mm erd, what we use when we build them.

Would there be an advantage to going to the more expensive Open Pro over
the CXP22 or Alex R390 for a non-racer? I do do some fairly fast rides
in the summer when I'm in shape (22 mph century last July, by far the
ride of my life which I'm still wondering how I did it), but sprints and
attacks are the last things on my mind. If I had to list my priorities in
order it would be

1. Reliability (28 k miles seemed to be a good reason to stay with a CXP2x)
2. Laceover build
3. Cost (I am on the frugal, if not cheap, side)
4. Carried by my LBS (although frugal, I will pay a few extra $$$ for the
* *same product to support them)
5. Will it give me that last little bit in a sprint
6. "Style"

No. Look for one that has a close ERD. In spite of the fawning over
Alex rims here, when you don't pay a lot for a rim, you get a cheap
rim. They make for an OK wheel but they are not in the 'quality when
new' range of other rims, mostly from Europe or Austrailia

On Dec 1, 7:48*am, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
On Nov 30, 12:52*pm, Jim West wrote:



On 2008-11-30, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

On Nov 29, 5:55*pm, Jim West wrote:
I have a Mavic CPX21 rim that came with my bike that has cracked after
28,000 miles. I'd like to do a lace-over with a new rim, but it looks
like the CPX21 was OEM and I don't know if I can get one. The CPX22 is
available, though, which looks like pretty much the same rim but with
an eyelet. However, Damon Rinard's spoke-length calculator database
gives the ERD of the CXP21 as 601.5 and the CXP22S as 599.5. Is that
too much different? If so, does anyone have any other suggestions? It
is for a real wheel, Ultegra hub, 9 speed, purchased in early 2002, and
I don't race.

Open Pro is 603mm erd, what we use when we build them.

Would there be an advantage to going to the more expensive Open Pro over
the CXP22 or Alex R390 for a non-racer? I do do some fairly fast rides
in the summer when I'm in shape (22 mph century last July, by far the
ride of my life which I'm still wondering how I did it), but sprints and
attacks are the last things on my mind. If I had to list my priorities in
order it would be

1. Reliability (28 k miles seemed to be a good reason to stay with a CXP2x)
2. Laceover build
3. Cost (I am on the frugal, if not cheap, side)
4. Carried by my LBS (although frugal, I will pay a few extra $$$ for the
* *same product to support them)
5. Will it give me that last little bit in a sprint
6. "Style"

No. Look for one that has a close ERD. In spite of the fawning over
Alex rims here, when you don't pay a lot for a rim, you get a cheap
rim.

That's the whole point. While the cheaper Alexes have expected flaws
at their price points like uneven braking surfaces that are easily
mitigated, and the occasional out of round $15 rim when you're at the
bottom of the barrel, I've never seen them crack at the eyelet or
pucker like a Mavic or a Velocity. When you pay $40 for something like
an R390, you get a rim that's got a welded joint and every bit as good
as or better than something from Mavic or DT for half the price.

On Dec 1, 8:53*am, landotter wrote:
On Dec 1, 7:48*am, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:



On Nov 30, 12:52*pm, Jim West wrote:

On 2008-11-30, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

On Nov 29, 5:55*pm, Jim West wrote:
I have a Mavic CPX21 rim that came with my bike that has cracked after
28,000 miles. I'd like to do a lace-over with a new rim, but it looks
like the CPX21 was OEM and I don't know if I can get one. The CPX22 is
available, though, which looks like pretty much the same rim but with
an eyelet. However, Damon Rinard's spoke-length calculator database
gives the ERD of the CXP21 as 601.5 and the CXP22S as 599.5. Is that
too much different? If so, does anyone have any other suggestions? It
is for a real wheel, Ultegra hub, 9 speed, purchased in early 2002, and
I don't race.

Open Pro is 603mm erd, what we use when we build them.

Would there be an advantage to going to the more expensive Open Pro over
the CXP22 or Alex R390 for a non-racer? I do do some fairly fast rides
in the summer when I'm in shape (22 mph century last July, by far the
ride of my life which I'm still wondering how I did it), but sprints and
attacks are the last things on my mind. If I had to list my priorities in
order it would be

1. Reliability (28 k miles seemed to be a good reason to stay with a CXP2x)
2. Laceover build
3. Cost (I am on the frugal, if not cheap, side)
4. Carried by my LBS (although frugal, I will pay a few extra $$$ for the
* *same product to support them)
5. Will it give me that last little bit in a sprint
6. "Style"

No. Look for one that has a close ERD. In spite of the fawning over
Alex rims here, when you don't pay a lot for a rim, you get a cheap
rim.

That's the whole point. While the cheaper Alexes have expected flaws
at their price points like uneven braking surfaces that are easily
mitigated, and the occasional out of round $15 rim when you're at the
bottom of the barrel, I've never seen them crack at the eyelet or
pucker like a Mavic or a Velocity. When you pay $40 for something like
an R390, you get a rim that's got a welded joint and every bit as good
as or better than something from Mavic or DT for half the price.

I really don't want to argue this but a R390 is not in the same class
as a DT RR 1.1 in terms of roundness, flatness when new. The R390 can
make a dandy wheel but 'every bit as good or better' than the
DT..Nope. Splitting hairs here but when finished wheel tolerances
should be well w/i 1mm in round, true dish and tension w/i 1% all
around, you can get close with these with the Alex rim but not to the
tolerances of a DT.

Jim West skrev:

Would there be an advantage to going to the more expensive Open Pro over
the CXP22 or Alex R390 for a non-racer? I do do some fairly fast rides
in the summer when I'm in shape (22 mph century last July, by far the
ride of my life which I'm still wondering how I did it), but sprints and
attacks are the last things on my mind. If I had to list my priorities in
order it would be

1. Reliability (28 k miles seemed to be a good reason to stay with a CXP2x)
2. Laceover build
3. Cost (I am on the frugal, if not cheap, side)
4. Carried by my LBS (although frugal, I will pay a few extra $$$ for the
same product to support them)
5. Will it give me that last little bit in a sprint
6. "Style"

The Open Pro is lighter (435 grams vs 510 grams) and allegedly
stronger (Maxtal vs 6106 alloy) than the CXP22, it is also more
expensive. Whether you can feel the 150 g. difference in a sprint I
really can't say.
As they say, strong, light, cheap: pick any two.

My favorite rim is the Mavic CXP33: it is a very strong rim. Been
running them with +135kg spoke tension without a problem. All the
Mavic rims I have have bought have been totally round and lateral
straight and also under the advertised weight.
I have a very low opinion on Alex wheels on account of the pair I have
owned or examined at shops etc.

--
Regards

On 2008-12-01, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

I really don't want to argue this but a R390 is not in the same class
as a DT RR 1.1 in terms of roundness, flatness when new. The R390 can
make a dandy wheel but 'every bit as good or better' than the
DT..Nope. Splitting hairs here but when finished wheel tolerances
should be well w/i 1mm in round, true dish and tension w/i 1% all
around, you can get close with these with the Alex rim but not to the
tolerances of a DT.

I take that this is not the first time this subject has been discussed.
In the end I marked several spokes with a Sharpie(tm) and took the
nipples off, and found that I have much more leaway going to a slightly
larger ERD than smaller. Also, the LBS had Open Pros in stock, so I spent
the extra $40 and went with it. I'm sure I'll be 5-6 MPH faster (at least!)
with the ~90 g reduction.

Convenience trumped price with me for once. Hard to believe.

Thanks again for the help, focks.

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
On Dec 1, 8:53 am, landotter wrote:
On Dec 1, 7:48 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:



On Nov 30, 12:52 pm, Jim West wrote:
On 2008-11-30, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
On Nov 29, 5:55 pm, Jim West wrote:
I have a Mavic CPX21 rim that came with my bike that has cracked after
28,000 miles. I'd like to do a lace-over with a new rim, but it looks
like the CPX21 was OEM and I don't know if I can get one. The CPX22 is
available, though, which looks like pretty much the same rim but with
an eyelet. However, Damon Rinard's spoke-length calculator database
gives the ERD of the CXP21 as 601.5 and the CXP22S as 599.5. Is that
too much different? If so, does anyone have any other suggestions? It
is for a real wheel, Ultegra hub, 9 speed, purchased in early 2002, and
I don't race.
Open Pro is 603mm erd, what we use when we build them.
Would there be an advantage to going to the more expensive Open Pro over
the CXP22 or Alex R390 for a non-racer? I do do some fairly fast rides
in the summer when I'm in shape (22 mph century last July, by far the
ride of my life which I'm still wondering how I did it), but sprints and
attacks are the last things on my mind. If I had to list my priorities in
order it would be
1. Reliability (28 k miles seemed to be a good reason to stay with a CXP2x)
2. Laceover build
3. Cost (I am on the frugal, if not cheap, side)
4. Carried by my LBS (although frugal, I will pay a few extra $$$ for the
same product to support them)
5. Will it give me that last little bit in a sprint
6. "Style"
No. Look for one that has a close ERD. In spite of the fawning over
Alex rims here, when you don't pay a lot for a rim, you get a cheap
rim.
That's the whole point. While the cheaper Alexes have expected flaws
at their price points like uneven braking surfaces that are easily
mitigated, and the occasional out of round $15 rim when you're at the
bottom of the barrel, I've never seen them crack at the eyelet or
pucker like a Mavic or a Velocity. When you pay $40 for something like
an R390, you get a rim that's got a welded joint and every bit as good
as or better than something from Mavic or DT for half the price.

I really don't want to argue this but a R390 is not in the same class
as a DT RR 1.1 in terms of roundness, flatness when new. The R390 can
make a dandy wheel but 'every bit as good or better' than the
DT..Nope. Splitting hairs here but when finished wheel tolerances
should be well w/i 1mm in round, true dish and tension w/i 1% all
around, you can get close with these with the Alex rim but not to the
tolerances of a DT.

If you can not feel it when riding, does it matter? Heck, even a cheap
Alesa rim is fine at 1100+ rpm.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

On Dec 1, 10:36*pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:



On Dec 1, 8:53 am, landotter wrote:
On Dec 1, 7:48 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

On Nov 30, 12:52 pm, Jim West wrote:
On 2008-11-30, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
On Nov 29, 5:55 pm, Jim West wrote:
I have a Mavic CPX21 rim that came with my bike that has cracked after
28,000 miles. I'd like to do a lace-over with a new rim, but it looks
like the CPX21 was OEM and I don't know if I can get one. The CPX22 is
available, though, which looks like pretty much the same rim but with
an eyelet. However, Damon Rinard's spoke-length calculator database
gives the ERD of the CXP21 as 601.5 and the CXP22S as 599.5. Is that
too much different? If so, does anyone have any other suggestions? It
is for a real wheel, Ultegra hub, 9 speed, purchased in early 2002, and
I don't race.
Open Pro is 603mm erd, what we use when we build them.
Would there be an advantage to going to the more expensive Open Pro over
the CXP22 or Alex R390 for a non-racer? I do do some fairly fast rides
in the summer when I'm in shape (22 mph century last July, by far the
ride of my life which I'm still wondering how I did it), but sprints and
attacks are the last things on my mind. If I had to list my priorities in
order it would be
1. Reliability (28 k miles seemed to be a good reason to stay with a CXP2x)
2. Laceover build
3. Cost (I am on the frugal, if not cheap, side)
4. Carried by my LBS (although frugal, I will pay a few extra $$$ for the
* *same product to support them)
5. Will it give me that last little bit in a sprint
6. "Style"
No. Look for one that has a close ERD. In spite of the fawning over
Alex rims here, when you don't pay a lot for a rim, you get a cheap
rim.
That's the whole point. While the cheaper Alexes have expected flaws
at their price points like uneven braking surfaces that are easily
mitigated, and the occasional out of round $15 rim when you're at the
bottom of the barrel, I've never seen them crack at the eyelet or
pucker like a Mavic or a Velocity. When you pay $40 for something like
an R390, you get a rim that's got a welded joint and every bit as good
as or better than something from Mavic or DT for half the price.

I really don't want to argue this but a R390 is not in the same class
as a DT RR 1.1 in terms of roundness, flatness when new. The R390 can
make a dandy wheel but 'every bit as good or better' than the
DT..Nope. Splitting hairs here but when finished wheel tolerances
should be well w/i 1mm in round, true dish and tension w/i 1% all
around, you can get close with these with the Alex rim but not to the
tolerances of a DT.

If you can not feel it when riding, does it matter? Heck, even a cheap
Alesa rim is fine at 1100+ rpm.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

If I can see it when I build the wheel, it matters. Lots of people
build wheels, few wheelbuilders.