3rd doping offense

in message .com, Bill C
') wrote:

On Aug 3, 4:36 pm, "
wrote:
On Aug 3, 4:19 pm, Bill C wrote:

I totally agree that cycling is cutting its own throat. Throwing
Rasmussen out while he was leading the tour without any proof of
doping would be akin to Baseball throwing Barry Bonds out while one
home run away from the record. How can this be good for the sport?

I really think the reason for this is that cycling has alot of fans
who are wanna-bes who think that they could be something if not for
doping (especially in America). Baseball and football have alot of
fans who are simply fans with no illusions that they are the next
babe Ruth or Jim Brown.- Hide quoted text -

It sure doesn't take long riding with a real national/UCI level talent
to make it really clear that it's not the just, or at all, the dope.
Most of those folks could drop the vast majority of us on a recovery
ride.

rasmussen wasn't canned by the master fatties and 12k dreamers, he was
fired by his team because of suspicious behavior.

of course the move wasn't good for the sport, but the tour winner
being wrapped up in a doping case is even worse for the sport (though
that might happen anyway).- Hide quoted text -

I guess you missed my earlier posts during the Tour agreeing that his
team did the right thing, same as happened to Ulrich, for the same
reason.
As far as I'm concerned Rasmussen's firing wasn't doping related it
was violation of contract related.

Except we don't yet know - and neither, as far as we know, do they -
whether or not he violated his contract. The only evidence that he did is
one man's word.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Perl ... is the Brittney Spears of programming - easily accessible
;; but, in the final analysis, empty of any significant thought
;; Frank Adrian on Slashdot, 21st July 2003

On Aug 4, 12:38 pm, Simon Brooke wrote:


Except we don't yet know - and neither, as far as we know, do they -
whether or not he violated his contract. The only evidence that he did is
one man's word.

--
(Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Perl ... is the Brittney Spears of programming - easily accessible
;; but, in the final analysis, empty of any significant thought
;; Frank Adrian on Slashdot, 21st July 2003- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is a ton of civil law to adjudicate contract disputes which
provide the full protections that anyone would be allowed, as opposed
to the doping Kangaroo Court system.
I don't see this as being any different than a guy on the assembly
line lying to his boss. They think there are grounds for terminating
his contract, and they did. He has the full protection of the legal
system in this case to dispute that decision if he chooses.
That's really all anyone can expect. If it's found they fired him
without cause I'm sure that there will be compensation awarded to him.
I agree with Amit that the team may well suspect that there are
bigger negatives to come in the future, but acting on that fear should
put them in a dicey legal situation if there is any justice. You have
to have due legal cause to take an action, fear of a future problem
isn't likely to hold up in a labor court.
That's why Mike Vick, even though the negative publicity is massive,
is still employed and being payed while the legalities run their
course. He's basically been given a paid vacation because that's the
best they can do to contain the negatives without losing a massive
lawsuit.
Bill C

I totally agree that cycling is cutting its own throat. Throwing
Rasmussen out while he was leading the tour without any proof of
doping would be akin to Baseball throwing Barry Bonds out while one
home run away from the record. How can this be good for the sport?


Umm... count me as one strike in favor of consistency on that one! If
baseball has evidence that Bonds has been cheating then yes, by all means,
suspend him one run shy of the record.

Anyone who believes that Rasmussen being tossed out of the 'tour was simply
a "normal" result of prior sins doesn't have their head screwed on straight.
It was quite obviously to set an example for others to see. Show that they
don't care they're not just going after the defenseless little guy; that
they'll take you down whenever and wherever they can.

Ultimately, if it does clean up the sport, it's good for the sport. But what
Cycling really needs is a new PR firm. It's ridiculous that we get BAD
publicity because our programs to catch cheating work. Isn't that what
they're supposed to do? Are we otherwise to assume that the old days, when
nobody was caught, that it was an indication things were cleaner?

We're on the right track. And we should be EXPECTING to catch cheaters, and
question things when we don't. In my opinion, any sport that isn't catching
many cheaters isn't doing a very good job of trying.

Meantime, ASO should be patting the UCI on the back for its efforts to find
those doping, and say publicly that those efforts are finding people because
they're WORKING.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

his team went public in stating unequivacably that the team did not
want to throw him out!

On Aug 4, 1:57 am, Michael Press wrote:
In article
. com,
Bill C wrote:

Less than half a season for a third offense in MLB:

Half a season is eighty-ONE games.
Perez is a utility player for a team vying for a championship.
The team will bring up players or maybe trade.
He will not be missed.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...3/bc.bba.tiger...

DETROIT (AP) -- Tigers infielder Neifi Perez was suspended for 80
games Friday after testing positive for a third time for a banned
stimulant.

Nope, Cycling isn't being subjected to selective prosecution and
cutting it's own throat, nope, not at all.
Let's face reality here. Cycling is the (insert discriminated against
sterotype here)

whipping boy

of sport. Wada say they are all guilty because of who
they are.
Garbage applied to society, garbage applied to sport. Where's
cycling's NAACP to take a stand against garbage?

--
Michael Press

NOPe. yawl keep missing the poitn with all this moralizing.
THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT AND MONEY.
perez is battting .175, Mayo is at career's end..
Bond is selling tickets tickets beer SF black power...
ASO decided they wanted Discovery not Denmark following Moroad's
defeat.
I say the French/Italians bet on Discovery.
Yawl want to make out that Prudhomme/ASO are upright guys: BS! never
were never will be.

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
If baseball has evidence that Bonds has been cheating then yes, by all means,
suspend him one run shy of the record.

If? The evidence is clear (excuse the pun). Barry doesn't deny doping.
He denies knowing he was doping. He maintains his suppliers were
lying to him about the stuff he was taking. He wouldn't have touched
the stuff if he'd only known what it really was. He's the victim in
this situation. We shouldn't punish the victim.

On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 09:20:51 -0400, "David B." wrote:

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
If baseball has evidence that Bonds has been cheating then yes, by all means,
suspend him one run shy of the record.

If? The evidence is clear (excuse the pun). Barry doesn't deny doping.
He denies knowing he was doping. He maintains his suppliers were
lying to him about the stuff he was taking.

Told him is was an iron shot, no doubt.

He wouldn't have touched
the stuff if he'd only known what it really was. He's the victim in
this situation. We shouldn't punish the victim.

Of course.

Ron

On Aug 4, 2:49 pm, Bill C wrote:
On Aug 4, 12:38 pm, Simon Brooke wrote:



Except we don't yet know - and neither, as far as we know, do they -
whether or not he violated his contract. The only evidence that he did is
one man's word.

--
(Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Perl ... is the Brittney Spears of programming - easily accessible
;; but, in the final analysis, empty of any significant thought
;; Frank Adrian on Slashdot, 21st July 2003- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is a ton of civil law to adjudicate contract disputes which
provide the full protections that anyone would be allowed, as opposed
to the doping Kangaroo Court system.
I don't see this as being any different than a guy on the assembly
line lying to his boss. They think there are grounds for terminating
his contract, and they did. He has the full protection of the legal
system in this case to dispute that decision if he chooses.
That's really all anyone can expect. If it's found they fired him
without cause I'm sure that there will be compensation awarded to him.

dumbass,

as an obsever what i see is that baseball (and all pro sports) have a
well defined system and an infallible commissoner.

part of the new problem of doping control in cycling is that even the
first violation results in a severe and potentially career ending
penalty and all doping violations are treated the same.

it has the effect of perpetuating the mentality that doping is "evil"
- it must be since the penalty is so harsh - when it's simply an issue
of breaking the agreed upon rules of the game.

when someone in MLB or the NFL tests positive there is a clear outcome
and it gets dealt with immediately, and there aren't endless appeals
and trials and hearings and a bewildering zoo of gov. bodies, ADAs.
Olympic committees, judges and prosecutors.

and there is consistency. but when there is a severe or unforeseen
problem like puerto there is a commissoner who can step in and make a
sane ruling which is unchallenged. that's what happened in the NBA
after the artest brawl.

after puerto basso and ullrich were cleared by their nat'l
federations, as were botero and sevilla (who are racing), but it was
CONI and the german cops that re-opened the investigations that led to
them being found guilty. a year after the fact there still isn't
closure on most of the 70 or so riders implicated in puerto, a problem
which might be coming home to roost in the form of contador.

instead of a boss cycling is run by an inept confederacy of committees
and bureaucrats.

if i was the mythical cycling commissoner after puerto i would look at
the puerto evidence that was available, talk to a few other cycling
insiders (riders, managers, docs), come up with a list of who i
thought was involved and suspend them all 6 months.

hysteria-prone chamois-sniffers like you would write on rbr comparing
me to stalin or mao and call my actions ethnic-cleansing or heretic-
burning and how i was destroying the sport for my personal gain. but
fans would know when a problem arose it was dealt with swiftly and
would not have to be revisited a year from now and they could
concentrate on the competition instead of the doping circus.

On Aug 5, 9:21 pm, "
wrote:
On Aug 4, 2:49 pm, Bill C wrote:





On Aug 4, 12:38 pm, Simon Brooke wrote:

Except we don't yet know - and neither, as far as we know, do they -
whether or not he violated his contract. The only evidence that he did is
one man's word.

--
(Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Perl ... is the Brittney Spears of programming - easily accessible
;; but, in the final analysis, empty of any significant thought
;; Frank Adrian on Slashdot, 21st July 2003- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is a ton of civil law to adjudicate contract disputes which
provide the full protections that anyone would be allowed, as opposed
to the doping Kangaroo Court system.
I don't see this as being any different than a guy on the assembly
line lying to his boss. They think there are grounds for terminating
his contract, and they did. He has the full protection of the legal
system in this case to dispute that decision if he chooses.
That's really all anyone can expect. If it's found they fired him
without cause I'm sure that there will be compensation awarded to him.

dumbass,

as an obsever what i see is that baseball (and all pro sports) have a
well defined system and an infallible commissoner.

part of the new problem of doping control in cycling is that even the
first violation results in a severe and potentially career ending
penalty and all doping violations are treated the same.

it has the effect of perpetuating the mentality that doping is "evil"
- it must be since the penalty is so harsh - when it's simply an issue
of breaking the agreed upon rules of the game.

when someone in MLB or the NFL tests positive there is a clear outcome
and it gets dealt with immediately, and there aren't endless appeals
and trials and hearings and a bewildering zoo of gov. bodies, ADAs.
Olympic committees, judges and prosecutors.

and there is consistency. but when there is a severe or unforeseen
problem like puerto there is a commissoner who can step in and make a
sane ruling which is unchallenged. that's what happened in the NBA
after the artest brawl.

after puerto basso and ullrich were cleared by their nat'l
federations, as were botero and sevilla (who are racing), but it was
CONI and the german cops that re-opened the investigations that led to
them being found guilty. a year after the fact there still isn't
closure on most of the 70 or so riders implicated in puerto, a problem
which might be coming home to roost in the form of contador.

instead of a boss cycling is run by an inept confederacy of committees
and bureaucrats.

if i was the mythical cycling commissoner after puerto i would look at
the puerto evidence that was available, talk to a few other cycling
insiders (riders, managers, docs), come up with a list of who i
thought was involved and suspend them all 6 months.

hysteria-prone chamois-sniffers like you would write on rbr comparing
me to stalin or mao and call my actions ethnic-cleansing or heretic-
burning and how i was destroying the sport for my personal gain. but
fans would know when a problem arose it was dealt with swiftly and
would not have to be revisited a year from now and they could
concentrate on the competition instead of the doping circus.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I agree with everything except the last paragraph. What you are
ignoring, that doesn't exist in cycling, is a very strong union
representing the athletes that has collectively bargained the doping
and "cheating" rules, penalties, and procedures. I would have no
problem with that being applied to cycling and booting Wada and the
rest. Everything in the sports is challenged and evaluated every few
years in the new labor agreements and if cycling actually had a
vialble, strong union, I don't think anyone would object to that route
except Wada, the UCI, and the Teams themselves.
You still are pretty simple for someone who spends so much time in
academia, as the last paragraph makes pretty clear.
You've pretty much missed every point that a lot of us have been
making. There are both labor relations issues, and juridicial issues
in this and neither are served at the level of any decent standard of
western culture that can be applied.
It's a lot closer to Boss Tweed, anti-union skullcrackers, and trying
to get just treatment in a "company town" when your complaint is the
company, but all of that somehow makes us chamois sniffers.
You really are a simple, simple, person in a very complex world.
Bill C

On Aug 3, 1:36 pm, "
wrote:
On Aug 3, 4:19 pm, Bill C wrote:





I totally agree that cycling is cutting its own throat. Throwing
Rasmussen out while he was leading the tour without any proof of
doping would be akin to Baseball throwing Barry Bonds out while one
home run away from the record. How can this be good for the sport?

I really think the reason for this is that cycling has alot of fans
who are wanna-bes who think that they could be something if not for
doping (especially in America). Baseball and football have alot of
fans who are simply fans with no illusions that they are the next babe
Ruth or Jim Brown.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It sure doesn't take long riding with a real national/UCI level talent
to make it really clear that it's not the just, or at all, the dope.
Most of those folks could drop the vast majority of us on a recovery
ride.
Bill C

dumbasses,

rasmussen wasn't canned by the master fatties and 12k dreamers, he was
fired by his team because of suspicious behavior.

of course the move wasn't good for the sport, but the tour winner
being wrapped up in a doping case is even worse for the sport (though
that might happen anyway).- Hide quoted text -

Yeah, Alberto Contador is being convicted in the press of having
initials of AC. Very powerful those initials.