Phil Wood FSA Serviceability?

Jim Rogers schreef:
well, first, i don't read phil's web site blurb as saying the bearings are
serviceable with 5mm hex wrenches, i see that as the /axle/ being
serviceable, i.e. you can remove the freehub body for cleaning and
lubrication.

Sorry, I did not give a very good link. I'm talking about a freewheel
hub. Here's a better link where Phil Wood says their FSA hubs
completely disassemble with two 5mm Allen wrenches:

http://www.philwood.com/fsa.htm

second, you /want/ the bearings to be a close fit to ensure they align
squarely for maximum durability, and so as not to erode the shell.
standard bearing service procedure is to pull or drift old bearings, so i
don't see why these should be any different just because they're on a bike.

I (think) I understand the reason for a *close* fit (as they were on
the axles), but in the shell they seemed to be a press fit.

In a good design bearings must be press fit into a hub shell. Phil did
you a favor.


but that begs the question as to why you wanted the bearings out in the
first place - what was wrong with them? and at what age/mileage?

Nothing was wrong. I'd just always heard that an advantage of Phil
hubs was "mindlessly" easy to replace the bearings with only two hex
wrenches.

Yeah right. That is a misunderstanding on your side.


Since I happened to have some time today, I thought I'd try
it out. I did not find it to be possible with the recommended tow
wrenches, so I decided to ask here if I was missing something.

No you did not mis anything. You have to tap them out.

Lou

Jim Rogers schreef:


There are two reasons I was thinking about this:

Reason #1. I'm planning on doing some long-term touring. I tend to
over-plan, and I like to think I have a solution thought out even for
unlikely events.

I've read many times that the sealed bearings used in Phil hubs are
not sealed from water, and some people report ruined bearings in their
Phil hubs after relatively few rides in the rain. I don't think it
would be a terribly unusual event on a long tour to hit a spell where
one might ride for several days (or even a week) in the rain.

They can take that. Otherwise it was a waste of money.


I figured this would not be a problem because 1) the bearings are
cheap and available at hardware stores, and 2) people have described
the bearing replacement process as being this fast and easy:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...9634da1210cfaf

So the idea is, if I did have any bearing problems, stop at a hardware
store, buy the bearings cheap, 10 minutes of work with my two Allen
wrenches in the parking lot, and my hubs are like new.

It is a 10 minutes job with the right tools.


Reason #2. I had been reading about old Maxicar hubs, and it was said
that the labyrinth seals used in those hubs would not be penetrated by
water, and you could ride them for 50,000 miles in any weather
conditions without trouble. Apparently, however, because of those
seals, those hubs were very difficult/expensive to manufacture.

I wondered if Phil might not have had a better idea of using cheap
bearings that were easy to replace rather than fancy seals to protect
the bearings. I decided to see just how easy the bearing replacement
process was and, while not finding it hard to do with the right tools,
I found it impossible to do with the advertised two Allen wrenches.

You learned something. That's good.

Lou

On Dec 1, 11:12*am, Lou Holtman wrote:

Nothing was wrong. I'd just always heard that an advantage of Phil
hubs was "mindlessly" easy to replace the bearings with only two hex
wrenches.

Yeah right. That is a misunderstanding on your side.

I don't think I misunderstood. Here's Jobst saying :

"However, the cartridges in some components (for instance the hubs
made by Phil Wood, Syncros, and others) can be replaced without a
bearing press. These cartridges are much easier to repack and can be
replaced easily if damaged. "

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html

Here's Peter White saying (about Phil hubs):

"Disassembles in seconds with two 5mm Allen wrenches."

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fronthubs.asp

Here's the Phil website saying:

"Completely disassembles with two 5 mm hex wrenches" (Note that
"Completely" is in bold.)

And here's a very recent comment on this newsgroup:

"To start, Phil Wood hubs have flanges that do not tear out.
Bearings can be replaced without a bearing press
(if they ever wear out). "

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...c72f983f0967aa

There are many other comments by many other posters to the same effect
on this forum, so I don't think I was being completely naive thinking
I could disassemble my Phil hub using only two hex keys and no bearing
press.

However, if Peter says you need one, I'm sure you do. I'll press them
back in.

--Jim

Here's the Phil website saying:

"Completely *disassembles with two 5 mm hex wrenches" (Note that
"Completely" is in bold.)

Forgot the link:

http://www.philwood.com/fsa.htm

On Dec 1, 11:18*am, Lou Holtman wrote:


I've read many times that the sealed bearings used in Phil hubs are
not sealed from water, and some people report ruined bearings in their
Phil hubs after relatively few rides in the rain. I don't think it
would be a terribly unusual event on a long tour to hit a spell where
one might ride for several days (or even a week) in the rain.

They can take that. Otherwise it was a waste of money.

Here is one example (their are many) of the type of comment that makes
me think that riding in the rain will result in the need for bearing
replacement (in addition, note his comment that it can be done with
two wrenches).

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...f348be29da68b7


It is a 10 minutes job with the right tools.

As I said in my original post, I had no problems using the right
tools. My question involves the idea that it can be done with two
wrenches (and no press).


You learned something. That's good.

Indeed.

--Jim

On Dec 1, 12:14*pm, Jim Rogers wrote:

Here is one example (their are many) of the type of comment that makes


(there are many)


--Jim

In article
,
Jim Rogers wrote:

Have you considered calling Phil Wood and asking them if this is normal?

On Dec 1, 6:24*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,
*Jim Rogers wrote:

Have you considered calling Phil Wood and asking them if this is normal?

Yes, I did consider that. However, the bulk of my correspondence here
was yesterday (Sunday), and I assumed Phil Wood would not be open.

By 8:00 this morning, Peter C. said that it can't be done with only
two 5mm hex's.

That was good enough for me.

Just curious-- were you ever able to perform a bearing overhaul on a
Phil hub with just two 5mm hex wrenches?

--Jim

In article
,
Jim Rogers wrote:

On Dec 1, 6:24*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,
*Jim Rogers wrote:

Have you considered calling Phil Wood and asking them if this is
normal?

Yes, I did consider that. However, the bulk of my correspondence here
was yesterday (Sunday), and I assumed Phil Wood would not be open.

By 8:00 this morning, Peter C. said that it can't be done with only
two 5mm hex's.

That was good enough for me.

Peter's been around this business for a long time and has seen most if
not all of it at one time or another; ditto Andrew M and Mike J. All
three of them are very generous with their time and their knowledge here
on r.b.t. I don't recall getting bad advice from them.

Just curious-- were you ever able to perform a bearing overhaul on a
Phil hub with just two 5mm hex wrenches?

I have only one wheel with a Phil FSA and that's a front wheel. It's
been in service 12 years and about 25,000 miles including some touring;
the bearings are as silky to turn as they were in 1996. I've never even
tried to remove the bearings, but checking just now they'd need to be
tapped out of the hub.

My other Phil hubs are older; the oldest ones I have had were from very
early in Phil's production (three piece, aluminum flanges with a steel
center, so what- late 1970s?) and those had silky smooth bearings too.
I've only once seen a Phil hub that needed a bearing replaced and my LBS
has the tool for that.

There have been a very few reports over the years in this newsgroup of
bearings needing to be replaced, that I have noticed anyway.

Tim McNamara wrote:

Peter's been around this business for a long time and has seen most if
not all of it at one time or another; ditto Andrew M and Mike J. *All
three of them are very generous with their time and their knowledge here
on r.b.t. *I don't recall getting bad advice from them.

Yep-- all good guys.


There have been a very few reports over the years in this newsgroup of
bearings needing to be replaced, that I have noticed anyway.

I have seen many. Doing a search on google groups for "Phil bearings
rain" I found these posts in just the first two pages of results (some
of these are referring to bb's, but the bearing seal issue is the
same):

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...1f378ac337b750

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...d73cfb6f61500b

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...534b0e92a70688

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...c1f960ec7c693f

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...c80b557f7b820a

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...459c20cc9a0573

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...e220a582948ca9

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...2341ff16767755

I know that there are others that say that they ride their Phil hubs
for many miles in the rain and have no problems (I didn't bother to
search them, but I know they exist). Completely contradictory
experiences of riders here? Yep-- fodder for another one of those
endless debates here on rec-tech.

Since I personally don't really know that much about sealed bearings
(and haven't had my hubs long enough for my own experience), I am
unable to reslove the contradictory experiences posted here. So
because the question is unresolved in my mind and I'm thinking about
some long-haul touring in a couple of years, I thought it might be
prudent to be prepared to change bearings out on the road.

I had gotten the impression (see previous posts) that an advantage of
Phil hubs was that they *could* be changed out on the road (quickly
and easily with just two Allen wrenches).

I guess that's not the case.

--Jim