Phil Wood FSA Serviceability?

On Dec 2, 7:19*am, Jim Rogers wrote:
Tim McNamara wrote:
Peter's been around this business for a long time and has seen most if
not all of it at one time or another; ditto Andrew M and Mike J. *All
three of them are very generous with their time and their knowledge here
on r.b.t. *I don't recall getting bad advice from them.

Yep-- all good guys.

There have been a very few reports over the years in this newsgroup of
bearings needing to be replaced, that I have noticed anyway.

I have seen many. Doing a search on google groups for "Phil bearings
rain" I found these posts in just the first two pages of results (some
of these are referring to bb's, but the bearing seal issue is the
same):

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...1f378ac337b750

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...d73cfb6f61500b

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...534b0e92a70688

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...c1f960ec7c693f

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...c80b557f7b820a

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...459c20cc9a0573

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...e220a582948ca9

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...2341ff16767755

I know that there are others that say that they ride their Phil hubs
for many miles in the rain and have no problems (I didn't bother to
search them, but I know they exist). Completely contradictory
experiences of riders here? Yep-- fodder for another one of those
endless debates here on rec-tech.

Since I personally don't really know that much about sealed bearings
(and haven't had my hubs long enough for my own experience),

Read this, interesting bit about 'cartridge' bearings.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html

I am
unable to reslove the contradictory experiences posted here. So
because the question is unresolved in my mind and I'm thinking about
some long-haul touring in a couple of years, I thought it might be
prudent to be prepared to change bearings out on the road.

I had gotten the impression (see previous posts) that an advantage of
Phil hubs was that they *could* be changed out on the road (quickly
and easily with just two Allen wrenches).

I guess that's not the case.

--Jim

Read this, interesting bit about 'cartridge' bearings.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html


I did read that (and cited it above). That was one of the sources that
made me aware that Phil bearings are not sealed from water. I knew of
this before I bought the hubs.

However, note that in that same article (near the bottom) it says that
Phil bearings could be replaced easily and without a press. Because of
this, I was not worried about this water problem when I bought the
hubs. Now I see it's not quite what I thought-- the bearings are easy
to change, but not on the road.

I should note that I mistakenly said (above) that Jobst said in that
article that one didn't need a press for Phil bearings. Upon re-
reading it, I see that comment is part of a follow up by Ben Escoto,
not Jobst.

Sorry-- my mistake.

--Jim

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 14:44:41 -0800, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

Read this, interesting bit about 'cartridge' bearings.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html

except that jobst, pretty much as usual, doesn't know what the heck he's
talking about. there are many different types of "seals" on bike
cartridge bearings. some, like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1110408641/

aren't sealing much at all. these are the ones to which jobst refers, and
they're the cheapo low end crap. but, these "non-friction" seals are not
the only seals used and it's wrong for jobst to assume all seals are
alike!

high end bearings, like those used in mavic and phil hubs, use proper
contact seals with two or even three seal lips. and unless you're using a
pressure washer, you won't have much of a problem. i bought my mavic
wheels originally because i was sick of the "labyrinth" seals on my
shimano hubs failing and letting in water. my mavic wheels with decent
sealed cartridges have been perfect for four winters now.





I am
[quoted text muted]

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 17:37:55 -0800, Jim Rogers wrote:

Read this, interesting bit about 'cartridge' bearings.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html


I did read that (and cited it above). That was one of the sources that
made me aware that Phil bearings are not sealed from water. I knew of
this before I bought the hubs.

1. hardly anyone has a problem with quality cartridge bearing seals, only
the cheap crap. it's wrong to lump all cartridge bearings together when
there are clear differences to anyone that can be bothered to do more then
the most cursory inspection. i haven't had any problems with decent
bearings, and i've ridden through some terrible winter commuting weather.

2. so why did you buy them??? all you've done here is complain about them.



However, note that in that same article (near the bottom) it says that
Phil bearings could be replaced easily and without a press. Because of
this, I was not worried about this water problem when I bought the hubs.
Now I see it's not quite what I thought-- the bearings are easy to
change, but not on the road.

i think you should get rid of the phil hub and buy something else more
amenable to recreational maintenance. see item #2 above.





I should note that I mistakenly said (above) that Jobst said in that
article that one didn't need a press for Phil bearings. Upon re- reading
it, I see that comment is part of a follow up by Ben Escoto, not Jobst.

Sorry-- my mistake.

--Jim

1. hardly anyone has a problem with quality cartridge bearing seals, only
the cheap crap. *

I provided several links to posts where people say that have had many
problems with Phil bearings in the rain.

*i haven't had any problems with decent
bearings, and i've ridden through some terrible winter commuting weather.

You are among the many that say they don't have problems.

As often here, there is debate between groups with apparently
completely different direct experience and differing engineering
theory to explain their results.

I'm not an engineer, and I don't have much direct experience with my
Phil hubs, so I'm not really trying to stir up that debate. I'm asking
about how my inability to service these hubs with only two hex keys.


2. so why did you buy them??? *all you've done here is complain about them.

I think I've explained that pretty clearly (several times), but in
case I'm wrong, here's a quick summary:

I. Before I bought the hubs
A. Some people here say Phil seals do not allow rain into the
bearings.
B. Some people here say they have many problems with rain water.
C. There are many posts here saying that Phil bearings can be changed
with only two hex keys.
D. I am considering some long-distance touring where I might be away
from home for long periods of time. I conclude that if A is correct--
great!, if B is correct, then no problem because of C. I will service
them (in the field) if necessary.
E. I decide to buy the hubs. I like them very much so far.

II. After I bought the hubs
A. Found there was no way to change the bearings with only 2 hex
keys.
B. Asked for help here to make sure I wasn't missing something since
I appeared to be the only one in the history of this forum to not be
able to do it.
C. Respected guru (Peter) confirms my result.
D. Am confused and disappointed that Phil would advertise something
so clearly untrue. Also wondering how so many people here could have
said it was possible when it was not.
E. Not unhappy with hubs, not unhappy with the forum. It's likely
that most here said it was possible based on the claim, but had never
actually tried it.


i think you should get rid of the phil hub and buy something else more
amenable to recreational maintenance. *see item #2 above.

See E above. I've got no problems with the hubs-- I can handle the
maintenance, I just know now not to expect to be able to do it easily
on the road with only two hex keys.

For me, the proper expectation is 90% of serenity.

--Jim

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 05:07:24 -0800, Jim Rogers wrote:

1. hardly anyone has a problem with quality cartridge bearing seals,
only the cheap crap.

I provided several links to posts where people say that have had many
problems with Phil bearings in the rain.

Â*i haven't had any problems with decent
bearings, and i've ridden through some terrible winter commuting
weather.

You are among the many that say they don't have problems.

As often here, there is debate between groups with apparently completely
different direct experience and differing engineering theory to explain
their results.

don't you have the slightest little bit of curiosity about that? on the
one hand, you have one guy proposing a seal leak theory that could
peripherally have some relevance, much like stress relief could have
relevance to cold worked materials, or "fretting" could have some
relevance to bearings, but the reality is very different. decent seals
don't have any capillary gap. the link to the one i posted does, but
others don't. look back through your "engineering theory" cites and look
for the discussion of different seal types, seal lip counts,
configurations, etc., and guess what - it's not there. so, just like the
guy that didn't bother to examine actual spoke failures before declaring
"stress relief theory" for spokes, and just like the guy that didn't
bother to research true brinelling before declaring "fretting theory" for
bearings, you need to take the theories of someone declaring that all
sealed bearings are subject to water damage with a somewhat large grain of
salt.




I'm not an engineer, and I don't have much direct experience with my
Phil hubs, so I'm not really trying to stir up that debate. I'm asking
about how my inability to service these hubs with only two hex keys.

you remind me of the old joke about the guy who would stand all day trying
to open a milk carton stamped "open other end" and "see other end for
instructions".

bottom line, changing bearings is trivial to anyone that's got the
slightest bit of common sense - like complaining that shoes don't come
with lacing instructions.

you're on your own jim - your ant pile is not a mountain.

don't you have the slightest little bit of curiosity about that? *on the
one hand, you have one guy proposing a seal leak theory that could
peripherally have some relevance, much like stress relief could have
relevance to cold worked materials, or "fretting" could have some
relevance to bearings, but the reality is very different. *decent seals
don't have any capillary gap. *the link to the one i posted does, but
others don't. *look back through your "engineering theory" cites and look
for the discussion of different seal types, seal lip counts,
configurations, etc., and guess what - it's not there. *so, just like the
guy that didn't bother to examine actual spoke failures before declaring
"stress relief theory" for spokes, and just like the guy that didn't
bother to research true brinelling before declaring "fretting theory" for
bearings, you need to take the theories of someone declaring that all
sealed bearings are subject to water damage with a somewhat large grain of
salt.

You and Jobst often espouse (in a brusque and dismissive style)
completely contradictory theories end experience. You both seem quite
authoritative and express your arguments in highly technical terms
with which I am not familiar.

Since I'm rarely in a position to judge which one of you is correct, I
listen to both of you and remain neutral.


you remind me of the old joke about the guy who would stand all day trying
to open a milk carton stamped "open other end" and "see other end for
instructions".

Maybe, but I feel more like a guy who bought a can of milk to take
hiking because the company says (and everyone raves) that this can has
a pop-top that can be opened on the trail with no can opener. I buy it
and find it can only be opened with a can opener.

The question is not whether I'm capable of using a simple can opener.

bottom line, changing bearings is trivial to anyone that's got the
slightest bit of common sense - like complaining that shoes don't come
with lacing instructions. *

This is decidedly *not* the bottom line.

you're on your own jim - your ant pile is not a mountain.

This newsgroup is nothing more than a vast field of ant piles. I'm
studying my particular one, and, over the years, you've exerted more
energy than a busy entomologist debating yours.

Nothing wrong with that, and I do appreciate your input.

--Jim

On Dec 3, 6:07*am, Jim Rogers wrote:
1. hardly anyone has a problem with quality cartridge bearing seals, only
the cheap crap. *

I provided several links to posts where people say that have had many
problems with Phil bearings in the rain.

*i haven't had any problems with decent
bearings, and i've ridden through some terrible winter commuting weather.

"jim beam" wrote:
[...]
bottom line, changing bearings is trivial to anyone that's got the
slightest bit of common sense - like complaining that shoes don't come
with lacing instructions.[...]

Lacing shoes is NOT trivial: http://www.shoe-lacing.com/shoelace/.

Of course, the SiDi ratchet is great for fit adjustments on the fly
compared to laces.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll