What you hosers don't seem to understand about LWS

it just occurred to me what is the difference between a walmart
purchaser and a LBS purchaser AND the best advice to give newbies on
this forum: if you think a bicycle is a TOY (as I do) then go to
walmart, the bikes are in the TOY section. If however leg power is is
your only means of transportation and you do not see a bike as a TOY
but as a means of survival, then you should give it your best to have a
REALLY nice bike and go ahead an help Gary Turner go 280 MPH.

No Cars are not toys. If you are going to use them as toys (in a
demolition derby), then Yeah a yugo is just as good as a mercedes.

I drive a chevrolet diesel pickup, because it is the cheapest thing
that meets my needs, 37,000 is alot of money to be the cheapest thing,
but it gets all 4 snowmobiles to the top of the mountain every winter.
By YOUR logic i should have shelled out 50,000 plus and got a HUMMER
because it's the "mercedes"

So if my duramax is a yugo. . . . what SHOULD i have bought?

x1134x wrote:
I am not rockstar, I just signed up for this account to put in my $0.02
because you guys are totally trashing a decent product at a decent
price based on anecdotes and probably made up BS. I never rock climb -
i think it is a stupid waste of time. Don't have a hummer - drive a
chevrolet diesel 4 door pickup, and am married to a dental hygeinist,
And NO i am not trolling to **** you off, I just HAPPENED to do it by
stating my opinion: no one should in their right mind purchase a
designer pedal bike when you could get a dirt bike and enjoy all the
advantages a dirt bike can give over mountain bike, Go look through
you local want ads, and you could get a used kawasaki 175 for less than
these ridiculously over-priced bicycles.


I think the biggest reason many of us pedal a bike instead of going
motorized is probably for fitness. I also like the lack of noise and
exhaust a pedal bike generates over a motorized one. Of course if you
are already fat, than you're more likely to be lazy too. That's a point
for the motor bike if you're fat and lazy and don't want to improve your
health.

I have no counter to most of your motorcycle "points". I know very
little about motorcycles, and it's apparent your (lack of) knowledge of
bicycles rivals my motorcycle knowledge.

I have seen the cheap bikes fail with my own eyes.
I think the most common symptom is the handlebars bending so they slope
down from the stem. Maybe you like that position, but it looks dangerous
and uncomfortable to me. I bet I've seen it a dozen times on bikes being
ridden around town. Sure it's anecdotal evidence, but so is yours.

Many of these bikes do not use quick releases on the skewers. It saves
them a buck and makes changing a tire a pain for the rider.

Most of these cheap bikes weigh 40, 50, or more pounds. For riding
around town, that's kind of a drag, but for trail riding it makes the
sport much more difficult to enjoy, especially for a new rider.

Any suspension parts on these bikes have zero dampening. Since your a
dirt bike expert, you must realize the importance of dampening. Having
none turns the bike into more of a catapult than a bike when you ride
over bumps. Cheap bikes should just have no suspension and they should
put the savings towards an even lower price or better components.

The materials used on the rims is weak and the surface is terrible for
braking. This makes for easily bent rims (machine built wheels also
contributes to this). The slick surface of the rim makes is relatively
poor when combined with the cheap brakes under good conditions. Add some
water and the brakes become virtually useless. Combine that with the
sheer heft of the bike and you have yourself a runaway train if the
conditions are right for it.

Cheap components will fall out of adjustment much more quickly, and
adjuster screws will strip easily, forcing a repair long before a
quality bike would need one. Of course if you never ride it, that
doesn't matter much but for actual cyclists, it does.

Cheap rear derailers don't put as much tension on the chain. If you are
weak this doesn't matter all that much. Once you gain some leg strength,
you'll start having problems with a skipping chain, which can be
annoying and also cause bad crashes if it happens when you need that
power to get over an obstacle.

Cheap cranks will bend easily, flex causing shifting problems, and be
more likely to break, which can result in a nasty accident.

Oh, and I'll drive my MOTORIZED (both our bikes are mechanized) bike
anywhere I damn well please and do not give a flying crap about your
opinion that i am destroying your trail.


So you don't care that the other trail users think you're a dick. I'll
just leave it at that. You're as free to be an ass as anyone else.

I met gary turner at bandimere speedway in denver in '96 and had dinner
with the guy, i also bought a 640 dollar GT bike from him. the "NEXT"
brand bike we bought two years ago is everybit as good. They make them
for relatively the same price, Gary just makes alot more profit by
fooling you into thinking your bike is a mercedes. And he has a
million dollar race outfit paid for by enthusiasts who enjoy their
mountain biking, and by people who just wanted a bike, and got fooled
into buying the brand name. They just take the time to set them up
perfectly so when your ass hops on you think "oooh this bike is much
better than the walgoose" , but if you had a walgoose set up perfectly
the difference would be the shifters aren't QUITE as smooth or as
quiet, and the frame is SLIGHTLY lighter. That's it. I just want to
put down on this forum that in the opinion of someone who bikes alot
(admittedly more honda than pedaling) they are the same if you have
any amount of mechanical inclination. The difference is the setup A
moron from walmart assembled it.


Sounds like a mid/low end bike from a questionable company ridden by an
inexperienced rider would seem pretty similar. If you put enough Miles
on them both, the WalGoose is more likely to fail first, but the GT
probably won't be that for behind. They had a bit of a reputation for
being pretty cheap (in terms of quality), especially at the lower end of
the price scale.

If you need a motorhead analogy, think of the WalMart bike as a Yugo,
and the GT as a Ford Festiva. They may seem similar when new, but
chances are the Yugo will fail sooner. They will still both drive like
crap, but if you haven't driven many cars you probably wouldn't realize
that. Bottom line is seeing either of these on the road 20 years later
is slim to none.

and again those trails are NOT yours.


Right. They are generally ours. I try to share them nicely, but that's
my personal choice. Like I said, you're free to be a dick, and seem to
enjoy exercising your freedom. Good for you.

The one place your argument wins if for bikes that won't be ridden. If
it's just going to sit in the garage then you may as well go as cheap as
possible, or maybe even just get a picture of a bike. That would save
you even more, but be less likely to clutter the garage.

Matt

PS I realize this is very unlikely to penetrate your small, closed mind.
I mostly posted for others' benefit who might be gullible enough to
believe your crap.

"x1134x" wrote in message
ups.com...
No Cars are not toys. If you are going to use them as toys (in a
demolition derby), then Yeah a yugo is just as good as a mercedes.

I drive a chevrolet diesel pickup, because it is the cheapest thing
that meets my needs, 37,000 is alot of money to be the cheapest thing,
but it gets all 4 snowmobiles to the top of the mountain every winter.
By YOUR logic i should have shelled out 50,000 plus and got a HUMMER
because it's the "mercedes"

So if my duramax is a yugo. . . . what SHOULD i have bought?


You still don't understand, I'll try to explain it one more time, now pay
close attention.

If a "Walmart" bike is as good as a high end bicycle store bike, because
they both have wheels and pedals, then a Yugo is just as good as a Mercedes
because they both have doors and wheels. I could care less what you
drive, but how's the price of gasoline and diesel affecting all your
internal combustion toys?

BTW, ride your motorcycle on our local bike trail, it could be in the next
police auction.

I think the biggest reason many of us pedal a bike instead of going
motorized is probably for fitness.
Same reason we have the GT and Next, so i can go run around town and
get exercise when I don't feel like taking out the honda, and riding
the honda is much more of a workout.

I know very little about motorcycles, and it's apparent your (lack of) knowledge of
bicycles rivals my motorcycle knowledge.

I will concede i know little of the performance of a bicycles off-road,
because like i said i pedal around the neighbor hood, but if i'm going
out into nature, its gonna be the honda. however I know everything
about how to fix, or maintain my bicycle MYSELF and they are both in
great working order always.

I have seen the cheap bikes fail with my own eyes.
I think the most common symptom is the handlebars bending so they slope
down from the stem.

Again its a use/perception arguement. remember i started this thread
because i felt people who just want a toy bike to run around town and
down the greenbelt are being pointed towards a higher-priced bike when
they shouln't be based on their view of what the bike will be used for
(a TOY? transportation to work? Hardcore Mountain biking?)

If i'm on terrain that is going to bend My Next's handle bars, there is
no problem because i am on my Honda.

Many of these bikes do not use quick releases on the skewers. It saves
them a buck and makes changing a tire a pain for the rider.

What? are you changing the tire out on the trail? it's too hard to grab
a couple of end-wrenches out of the toolbox and pull the tire off? You
are correct however they do it to cut costs.

Most of these cheap bikes weigh 40, 50, or more pounds. For riding
around town, that's kind of a drag, but for trail riding it makes the
sport much more difficult to enjoy, especially for a new rider.

Use/perception again. are you biking for sport? or just around town?
for that exercise arguement you previously posted, the added weight MAY
be desireable.

Any suspension parts on these bikes have zero dampening. Since your a
dirt bike expert, you must realize the importance of dampening.

our next has a spring, AND an adjustable shock absorber. but i cannot
speak for all walmart bikes. And again when dampening is really
NEEDED, the honda is between the legs.

The materials used on the rims is weak and the surface is terrible for
braking. This makes for easily bent rims (machine built wheels also
contributes to this).

good point. i do consider the wheels inferior. but they are REMOVABLE
and you can get good ones to replace them.. THis is the type of
monetary advice that may be helpful to a newbie. . . buy the frame,
dump the wheels and brakes, (if your mechanically unretarded)

Cheap components will fall out of adjustment much more quickly, and
Cheap rear derailers don't put as much tension on the chain.

again, what parts are replaceable with better ones? I have missed
these claims in my experience, and have quite a few miles on the NEXT,
and I have a small amount of finesse when it comes to not stripping
screws, if you crank on them you can strip any type of screw.

So you don't care that the other trail users think you're a dick. I'll
just leave it at that. You're as free to be an ass as anyone else.

so i shouldn't go ride this fun trail because a mountain biker will
think i'm a dick? I'm not trying to be a dick i was just told to stay
off "HIS" trail and i think that makes HIM a dick.

If you need a motorhead analogy, think of the WalMart bike as a Yugo,
and the GT as a Ford Festiva. They may seem similar when new, but
chances are the Yugo will fail sooner. They will still both drive like
crap, but if you haven't driven many cars you probably wouldn't realize
that. Bottom line is seeing either of these on the road 20 years later
is slim to none.

I'm almost with you, but translate the 20 years to bicycle terms, how
long will a walgoose last? how long will a GIANT last?, I can by 5
walgooses for the price of 1 giant

Right. They are generally ours. I try to share them nicely, but that's
my personal choice. Like I said, you're free to be a dick, and seem to
enjoy exercising your freedom. Good for you.

I don't mind sharing either, JD doesn't want to share. He wants me off
his trails.

The one place your argument wins if for bikes that won't be ridden. If
it's just going to sit in the garage then you may as well go as cheap as
possible, or maybe even just get a picture of a bike. That would save
you even more, but be less likely to clutter the garage.

Funny, Really, i laughed at the picture joke. but The fact is I do
probably weekly ride the NEXT.

PS I realize this is very unlikely to penetrate your small, closed mind.
I mostly posted for others' benefit who might be gullible enough to
believe your crap.

what portion of advice am i giving people that would lead them astray?
If you think a bicycle is a toy, will be used as such and usually enjoy
your off-roading with a two-or four stroke, then the walmart bike IS a
better option. . . .
If you are thinking of dumping close to a grand on a mountain bike,
have you considered a dirt-bike, maybe people would read this and go
"oh yeah, i'd rather pedal by twisting my right hand"

x1134x

PS no I am not this rockstar you guys think i am, i live in boise
idaho, and just signed up because I disagree.

wrote:
The Trailrunner wrote:

But if
not, I can't justify a $500+ investment in something I might use half
dozen times a year at most.


Point taken ... now when your ankle is better ... you should come out
for next years La Luz.

I've heard good things about it but it's a little short for my tastes.
I'm an ultra freak.

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

If a "Walmart" bike is as good as a high end bicycle store bike, because
they both have wheels and pedals, then a Yugo is just as good as a Mercedes
because they both have doors and wheels. I could care less what you
drive, but how's the price of gasoline and diesel affecting all your
internal combustion toys?

I'm not trying to claim they are the same, just saying for many people
they are a better buy. because not everyone uses their bicycles like
you do.

So it costs $50 bucks to fill up now instead of 25 big deal. i spend
more going out to eat on a friday. and it costs a whopping 13 bucks to
fill up the five gallon gas tank and go out dirt biking all day. or
sometimes two days

BTW, ride your motorcycle on our local bike trail, it could be in the next
police auction.

I'm not a moron I ride where it is legal, however, I totally rail
against limiting dirtbike access anywhere, But I am NOT one of the
offenders.

x1134x wrote:
People who CAN afford a car, and use it as their means of getting
around. And that's a big no on the cigarrettes but yes on the dew and
pot. a great cocktail for dirtbiking{:-) and i know that you think I
am tongue in cheek joking here, i assure you I am not.

Funny how someone who smokes pot has a 40,000 dollar truck, 15,000
dollar jeep, two motorbikes, a GT bike and a NEXT "walgoose" on top of

All paid off, I'm sure. You really are very impressive!

my house, yet a sierra club member fresh - air legislating non-smoker
uses a bicycle to get to work!


--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado

"Anyone who isn't confused really doesn't understand the situation."
Edward R. Murrow

x1134x wrote:
I think the biggest reason many of us pedal a bike instead of going
motorized is probably for fitness.

Same reason we have the GT and Next, so i can go run around town and
get exercise when I don't feel like taking out the honda, and riding
the honda is much more of a workout.


OK, then I think you're doing it (riding the bike) wrong.


I know very little about motorcycles, and it's apparent your (lack of) knowledge of
bicycles rivals my motorcycle knowledge.


I will concede i know little of the performance of a bicycles off-road,

Actually, we could tell already.

because like i said i pedal around the neighbor hood, but if i'm going
out into nature, its gonna be the honda. however I know everything
about how to fix, or maintain my bicycle MYSELF and they are both in
great working order always.


Good for you. I know basic maintenance, but leave the more complicated
things like total shock rebuilds up to the experts. My time is better
spent riding or doing what I know how to do well and making money at it.


I have seen the cheap bikes fail with my own eyes.
I think the most common symptom is the handlebars bending so they slope
down from the stem.


Again its a use/perception arguement. remember i started this thread
because i felt people who just want a toy bike to run around town and
down the greenbelt are being pointed towards a higher-priced bike when
they shouln't be based on their view of what the bike will be used for
(a TOY? transportation to work? Hardcore Mountain biking?)

If i'm on terrain that is going to bend My Next's handle bars, there is
no problem because i am on my Honda.


But you're not allowed to ride the Honda on the sidewalk!

I steer these people you describe to hybrid bikes or lower end mountain
bikes, from reputable companies. If they want to save some money and are
handy, get a used quality bike.


Many of these bikes do not use quick releases on the skewers. It saves
them a buck and makes changing a tire a pain for the rider.


What? are you changing the tire out on the trail? it's too hard to grab
a couple of end-wrenches out of the toolbox and pull the tire off? You
are correct however they do it to cut costs.


Well, if the trail is where I get the flat my choices are fix it there
or walk home. So yes, I do change them on the trail if that's where they
go flat.


Most of these cheap bikes weigh 40, 50, or more pounds. For riding
around town, that's kind of a drag, but for trail riding it makes the
sport much more difficult to enjoy, especially for a new rider.


Use/perception again. are you biking for sport? or just around town?

Around town I ride a town bike (I almost never drive - it just seem so
lazy and wasteful). So I guess by your definition I am riding "for
sport" when I'm on a mountain bike.

for that exercise arguement you previously posted, the added weight MAY
be desireable.


To a point, maybe. Unless it's so heavy you (being the new cyclist
trying to get in shape) can't ride it up a hill. That makes the bike
much less likely to be ridden, and just something to clutter your life.


Any suspension parts on these bikes have zero dampening. Since your a
dirt bike expert, you must realize the importance of dampening.


our next has a spring, AND an adjustable shock absorber. but i cannot
speak for all walmart bikes. And again when dampening is really
NEEDED, the honda is between the legs.


The materials used on the rims is weak and the surface is terrible for
braking. This makes for easily bent rims (machine built wheels also
contributes to this).


good point. i do consider the wheels inferior. but they are REMOVABLE
and you can get good ones to replace them.. THis is the type of
monetary advice that may be helpful to a newbie. . . buy the frame,
dump the wheels and brakes, (if your mechanically unretarded)


But then you've bought two sets of wheels to just use one. So much for
the bike being a better deal! Why not just get one that you don't have
to buy more stuff for to make it slightly less of a piece of crap?


Cheap components will fall out of adjustment much more quickly, and
Cheap rear derailers don't put as much tension on the chain.


again, what parts are replaceable with better ones? I have missed
these claims in my experience, and have quite a few miles on the NEXT,
and I have a small amount of finesse when it comes to not stripping
screws, if you crank on them you can strip any type of screw.


Again, if you buy a little better grade of stuff, you only need to buy
it once. From my observations at the LBS where these toys are sometimes
brought for service, we see this kind of failure at a much higher rate
than on higher quality bikes. Maybe it's just the people who buy them
are more likely to strip screws (just an example, BTW), but my guess is
that the inferior quality plays a big part.


So you don't care that the other trail users think you're a dick. I'll
just leave it at that. You're as free to be an ass as anyone else.


so i shouldn't go ride this fun trail because a mountain biker will
think i'm a dick? I'm not trying to be a dick i was just told to stay
off "HIS" trail and i think that makes HIM a dick.


That was Ride-A-Lot, not JD, but honestly I think most of not all of us
would rather not have dirt bikes on the trails.
It was more the comment about riding it anywhere you "damn-well please"
that makes you come off as a dick. I'd think the same of a mountain
biker making the same statement. It shows a lack of respect for others
and possibly the law depending on where you're talking about.


If you need a motorhead analogy, think of the WalMart bike as a Yugo,
and the GT as a Ford Festiva. They may seem similar when new, but
chances are the Yugo will fail sooner. They will still both drive like
crap, but if you haven't driven many cars you probably wouldn't realize
that. Bottom line is seeing either of these on the road 20 years later
is slim to none.


I'm almost with you, but translate the 20 years to bicycle terms, how
long will a walgoose last? how long will a GIANT last?, I can by 5
walgooses for the price of 1 giant


Then why didn't you buy a cheaper truck and just replace it more
regularly? Safety? Convenience? Is it more of a pleasure (or less of a
chore) to drive? Chances are it wasn't to be less wasteful (in terms of
resources), but that would also enter into my decision.


Right. They are generally ours. I try to share them nicely, but that's
my personal choice. Like I said, you're free to be a dick, and seem to
enjoy exercising your freedom. Good for you.


I don't mind sharing either, JD doesn't want to share. He wants me off
his trails.


So do I, but the law here states I have to share. So I do, and I try to
be considerate of other trail users, just because that's how I was
taught to treat people. Some trail bike riders are very considerate and
some spray gravel at cyclists just to taunt them. For some reason I
picture you as more like the latter than the former.


The one place your argument wins if for bikes that won't be ridden. If
it's just going to sit in the garage then you may as well go as cheap as
possible, or maybe even just get a picture of a bike. That would save
you even more, but be less likely to clutter the garage.


Funny, Really, i laughed at the picture joke. but The fact is I do
probably weekly ride the NEXT.


PS I realize this is very unlikely to penetrate your small, closed mind.
I mostly posted for others' benefit who might be gullible enough to
believe your crap.


what portion of advice am i giving people that would lead them astray?

That part that states the WalMart bikes are as good as quality bikes.

If you think a bicycle is a toy, will be used as such and usually enjoy
your off-roading with a two-or four stroke, then the walmart bike IS a
better option. . . .

Even if by your definition I do consider my bikes toys, I'm still going
to want a quality toy. I think of them more as tools for fitness, fun,
transportation, and even survival. I don't want to trust my welfare to a
cheap piece of crap.

If you are thinking of dumping close to a grand on a mountain bike,
have you considered a dirt-bike, maybe people would read this and go
"oh yeah, i'd rather pedal by twisting my right hand"

Maybe, but probably not the ones who come here seeing mountain biking
information. I certainly wouldn't.


x1134x

PS no I am not this rockstar you guys think i am, i live in boise
idaho, and just signed up because I disagree.


Seems believable enough to me. Maybe you and rockstar should get
together or be pen pals or something.

Matt

OK, then I think you're doing it (riding the bike) wrong.

Well, I don't "sit and steer" I like to ride a little more aggressivle
than that, and it's a workout.

But you're not allowed to ride the Honda on the sidewalk!

Bending the handlebars hopping off a sidewalk curb, What do they weigh
350 lbs?

Well, if the trail is where I get the flat my choices are fix it there
or walk home. So yes, I do change them on the trail if that's where they
go flat.

Where do you carry your spare tire/tube? doesn't that take away from
your "weight advantage" (i'm imagining someone ridiing their
mountainbike with an extra tire hanging from their neck)

But then you've bought two sets of wheels to just use one. So much for
the bike being a better deal! Why not just get one that you don't have
to buy more stuff for to make it slightly less of a piece of crap?

But if it was still cheaper and brought the quality to comparable it
may be worth looking into. Anyone who plays guitars knows fenders are
ok, but as soon as you get them drop the tuners off an get good ones,
cuz fenders come with crap tuning pegs.


That was Ride-A-Lot, not JD, but honestly I think most of not all of us
would rather not have dirt bikes on the trails.

Why? because they spray you with gravel? the solution to that is get
them aressted for assault, and if you got hit, battery, not close the
trail to all dirt bikes. just pack your video camera along with you
once. . . .

Then why didn't you buy a cheaper truck and just replace it more
regularly? Safety? Convenience?

HORSEPOWER 510 lbs/ft torque i told you i got the cheapest thing that
FIT the desired need. there wasn't another cheaper option or I would
have THAT one. That's is just good economics.

Chances are it wasn't to be less wasteful (in terms of
resources), but that would also enter into my decision.

Even if we conserved EVERYTHING to a ridiculous degree (turning off the
shower while you soap or shampoo and then turn it back on- i always
laugh at that suggestion) the exponential growth of human population
will eventually consume the natural resources available eventually
anyway, so why should I voluntarily give up my fun / convenience /
leisure, to prolong the inevitable? I don't mind if more of the scar
is done by me. it's gonna get it anyway, unless we legislate
population control

Even if by your definition I do consider my bikes toys, I'm still going
to want a quality toy. I think of them more as tools for fitness, fun,
transportation, and even survival. I don't want to trust my welfare to a
cheap piece of crap.

And i don't want to trust my welfare to a bicycle! I can just imagine
you driving your wife to the hospital to deliver the baby riding on
your handlebars!