In the US, Automobiles and bikes don't mix very well.

Hi,

I have just started cycling after many years of not. (since I was a
kid).

One of the main reasons I have avoided it was a lack of places to go,
but I have now found a few places I really like.

I try and avoid going near traffic whenever possible. I've driven
automobiles for over 25 years in some of the worst traffic, in some of
the worst cities in the world. I can honestly say, that with the
exception of drivers in Rome, and Moscow, American drivers are the
worst, and I am an American.

We basically get our driver's licenses by passing a test that a
chimpanzee could ace, and the main reason is that given the way our
cities are laid out, if you don't drive you don't work.

If someone commits vehicular homicide in the US, they will go to jail,
but the day of their parole, they will be given a driver's license
again, be it on a temporary and limited basis, because the judge knows
its basically the only way for this person to earn a living.

The plain and simple truth is that drivers don't pay attention to what
they are doing, and the driving tests are reduced to the lowest common
denominator.

This is so Semi-Blind Senior Citizens, Childish Teenagers,
Alcoholics, Drug Addicts, Deaf People, etc. can exercise their
"right" to drive freely without restrictions. Nobody is going to tell
them they can't drive, because they vote, just like we do and the
politicians won't tighten up any laws that would anger their
constituents, and potentially cause those politicians to lose their
jobs.

Since we have these people, along with the normal mix of low-grade
morons, dim-bulbs, twits, dweebs, air-heads, and other brain-donors
driving automobiles in America, people in other Automobiles are at
significant risk of injury during the course of their lives.

These people don't look for other cars on the road, not to mention
bicycles and motorcycles.

If you are old enough to have a little gray in your hair, I'm sure you
can name at least one or two people you know personally who you have
grown up with who has been killed on a motorcycle.

Now lets talk bicycles, In my opinion bikes and cars don't mix. That's
just the way things are.

Don't get me wrong, I wish this wasn't the case, and I think we should
all try to change things for the better. But I believe the best way to
end up as "Road Pizza" is to have the attitude that you have as much
right to ride on the road as an automobile, and you are going to
exercise that right without regard to the reality that the most people
who are zooming inches away from you aren't even conscience you exist.

Walter wrote:
the worst cities in the world. I can honestly say, that with the
exception of drivers in Rome, and Moscow, American drivers are the
worst, and I am an American.

According to Dave Barry, Miami has the worst drivers in the world.
Although he also points out that people everywhere always claim that
"their" drivers are the worst out there.

If someone commits vehicular homicide in the US, they will go to jail,

Haven't been around r.b.m much, have you?

Don't get me wrong, I wish this wasn't the case, and I think we should
all try to change things for the better. But I believe the best way to
end up as "Road Pizza" is to have the attitude that you have as much
right to ride on the road as an automobile, and you are going to
exercise that right without regard to the reality that the most people
who are zooming inches away from you aren't even conscience you exist.

And how is it different from driving a car?

All that steel won't always be enough to keep you safe; if another car
hits you head on, I'm not sure it matters whether you were in a cage or
on a bike. Actually, given how more maneuverable a bike is, maybe you
could've *avoided* that collision instead. Who knows? The only
surefire way to avoid being hit by a car is to stay home.


I was thinking about this a few weeks ago, during a (metric) century,
when my mind drifted to Ken Kifer, and how he might still be alive today
if he hadn't taken up cycling. Then I wondered, even if he had known
that cycling would eventully kill him, would it have mattered to him?

We all die one way or another. The important thing is to have fun
before the moment comes.


--
Frederic Briere *

= IS NO MO http://www.abacomsucks.com =

Walter wrote:


We basically get our driver's licenses by passing a test that a
chimpanzee could ace, and the main reason is that given the way our
cities are laid out, if you don't drive you don't work.

Don't get me wrong, I wish this wasn't the case, and I think we should
all try to change things for the better. But I believe the best way to
end up as "Road Pizza" is to have the attitude that you have as much
right to ride on the road as an automobile, and you are going to
exercise that right without regard to the reality that the most people
who are zooming inches away from you aren't even conscience you exist.

Thousands of cyclists share the road with their fellow imbeciles every
day, and have done it for years. Traffic is traffic. Just do it, you
are part of the mix.
Bernie

(Walter) wroe on 10/18/03 1:11 AM Eastern:
..........
These people don't look for other cars on the road, not to mention
bicycles and motorcycles.

Some don't-a lot depends on the way you ride.

If you are old enough to have a little gray in your hair, I'm sure you
can name at least one or two people you know personally who you have
grown up with who has been killed on a motorcycle.

I don't personally know anybody killed either by bike or motorcycle. I do know
several people killed in car crashes, one very personally.

Now lets talk bicycles, In my opinion bikes and cars don't mix. That's
just the way things are.

Well---I commute to work 2-3 times/week. Actually drivers seem more
considerate than when I drive. Really. It surprises me when I think about it,
but it's true.


Don't get me wrong, I wish this wasn't the case, and I think we should
all try to change things for the better.

A lot of driver "education" can occur by our behavior on the road. Ride
assertively; make eye contact; reward any degree of driver courtesy with a wave
or friendly nod (they will be more likely to repeat an act of kindness if you
make them feel good about it). But do not let yourself become intimidated.
Drivers act more responsibly if you are predictable and act like you belong
where you are.

But I believe the best way to
end up as "Road Pizza" is to have the attitude that you have as much
right to ride on the road as an automobile,...

You do, "as far right as practicable." There are some roads you are not
"allowed" toride on. You have to make some practical decisions on some of the
rest. It's not an either/or situation.
Each person has to decide his/her own level of comfort.

Now lets talk bicycles, In my opinion bikes and cars don't mix. That's
just the way things are.

Well, that's your opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I wish this wasn't the case, and I think we should
all try to change things for the better. But I believe the best way to
end up as "Road Pizza" is to have the attitude that you have as much
right to ride on the road as an automobile, and you are going to
exercise that right without regard to the reality that the most people
who are zooming inches away from you aren't even conscience you exist.

Walter, in my 35 years (time flies) of road cycling and my 5 years
of city riding I've found that "having an attitude" is a necessary
part of the skill set.

The attitude is not, however, that I have a right to the road. My
attitude is that I am operating machinery in a potentially dangerous
environment. That keeps me aware. But I can still smell the roses,
dude.

The truism here is that after enough exposure one makes fewer mistakes
and builds awareness. Where does the experience curve cross the
random event curve? Hopefully not ever. But **** happens. I find
your attitude to be unduly pessimistic.

Not that any of us can control everything we encounter. But we can
make the bad things less likely, for sure. And riding a bicycle is
fun, man. Even in Hellish traffic. Some might say it is more fun.


--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
in.edu__________

In article ,
Walter wrote:

If someone commits vehicular homicide in the US, they will go to jail,

More likely they will get a traffic citation (if unlucky) and go home.

Now lets talk bicycles, In my opinion bikes and cars don't mix. That's
just the way things are.

This you learned from your vast experience on the bike... was it you
who said you just started riding?

Don't get me wrong, I wish this wasn't the case, and I think we should
all try to change things for the better. But I believe the best way to
end up as "Road Pizza" is to have the attitude that you have as much
right to ride on the road as an automobile, and you are going to
exercise that right without regard to the reality that the most people
who are zooming inches away from you aren't even conscience you exist.

That is true, if you don't look out for cars you'll make your
own bad luck. Of course it is true for other auto drivers,
motorcyclists, pedestrians, and skate boarders (etc) as well.

On 18 Oct 2003 03:38:10 -0500, Frederic Briere
wrote:
All that steel won't always be enough to keep you safe; if another car
hits you head on, I'm not sure it matters whether you were in a cage or
on a bike. Actually, given how more maneuverable a bike is, maybe you

For that comparison to be meaningful, you need to drive at the same
speed as you ride your bicycle. At that speed, you will find that
the steel makes you almost invincible -- death only resulting from
extreme accidents.

I've been in auto accidents at bicycle speeds. They don't hurt near
as much as bicycle accidents.

could've *avoided* that collision instead. Who knows? The only
surefire way to avoid being hit by a car is to stay home.

Along that line of thought, if you were in a car, maybe the other
driver would have *seen* you and avoided the collision instead. Or
maybe you would have been able to accelerate hard to avoid the
accident. Or maybe you would already have been where you were
going, no longer exposed to cars whizzing by. On a bike, you're
exposed to many more cars than in a car, where you spend less hours
on the road.

We all die one way or another. The important thing is to have fun
before the moment comes.

Well said!
--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian wrote:
: On 18 Oct 2003 03:38:10 -0500, Frederic Briere
: wrote:
:We all die one way or another. The important thing is to have fun
:before the moment comes.
: Well said!

i've heard it said that only half the people that have ever lived have
bothered to die.

i like those odds.
--
david reuteler

My vast experience is from driving a car and watching and hearing
about people on the road being killed. No matter if they are driving
an 18 wheeler, car, bike, chopper, or walking.

I've seen a ****load of road kill on the road, squirrels, rabbits,
deer, dogs, cats, hawks, etc. I'm sure they all thought that they had
every right to be on the road too. In this case Might does make Right.

My point is its not about the behavior of the cyclist, is about the
behavior of the automobile driver. If you are arrogant enough to
think you are going "Educate" motorists from the seat of a bicycle,
then you have a rude and perhaps fatal awakening coming.

I can name at least 10 people I know or I should say known who have
died on Motorcycles. None of which were riding off-road at the time.
I can't say I know too many people who are bicyclists that have been
killed, but I know a few that ended up in the emergency room because
they went a few rounds with a passenger car and lost.

Most of the people I know don't ride bikes on the road, so I wouldn't
expect them to have problems with cars. I do know one very avid fan
of biking, and he has the scars to prove me right. He still rides on
the street, but he is at least smart enough to realize that often his
fate is in the hands of total strangers, much more than if he were
driving a car.

Ride on the street all you want, but when the laws if physics catch up
to you, don't come crying to me about it.

I'm staying on the bike paths, where it's a lot more fun to ride
anyway.

Take care.

(Walter) wrote on 10/18/03 3:26 PM Eastern
Daylight Time


I've seen a ****load of road kill on the road, squirrels, rabbits,
deer, dogs, cats, hawks, etc. I'm sure they all thought that they had
every right to be on the road too.

This is becoming laughable.

If you are arrogant enough to
think you are going "Educate" motorists from the seat of a bicycle,
then you have a rude and perhaps fatal awakening coming.

That's funny, because I do believe I have "educated" drivers on my commuter
route, right from the seat of my bicycle.

Ride on the street all you want, but when the laws if physics catch up
to you, don't come crying to me about it.

Okay

I'm staying on the bike paths,...

That's probably a good thing.