#91
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:14:40 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/23/2019 5:28 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:49:10 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/22/2019 10:56 PM, sms wrote: On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame. I tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame. Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/ snip Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill. One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist." Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the frame afterward. "don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame." Why ever not? "drill bit shifted to the side a little." With a centerpunch dimple and a drill sharpened to be symmetric they don't walk. Ah but... it sounds as though your shop can sharpen a drill bit, but from what I read here it is a very difficult task that only certain shops can accomplish :-) Perhaps the subject got an advert? We can sharpen a drill bit! Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit?? Apparently someone that posts here as I remember the implication and sharp drills were only found in machine shops :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
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#92
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:56:28 -0700, sms wrote:
On 5/23/2019 3:34 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: snip No, sorry, they didn't teach us about stress concentrations when drilling holes, primarily because any hole is a stress concentration, at least to some extent. And it is illogical to think that one can change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some special manner. It is not illogical at all. It is a fact. There is just no way that any course in machining would not teach about how to reduce stress concentration of holes drilled into metal. You might want to ask for a partial refund if that school is still in existence. IME, the guy(usually) who says what size hole is to be drillled and where is the one who might just conceivably have a clue about stresses related to hole drilling, though it is usually a special additioanl subject. OTOH, the guy actually drilling the hole just has a job sheet with spec to do so, if he has even got that much. We just had a spectacular example of the result of improper drilling of holes in steel beams in San Francisco, but these were not drilled by journeyman machinists. Entirely different situation to the sheet metal in a bicycle frame. |
#93
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Bottle holder
On Fri, 24 May 2019 10:46:42 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:14:40 -0500, AMuzi wrote: Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit?? Apparently someone that posts here as I remember the implication and sharp drills were only found in machine shops :-) Yep, YMMV, but I've always found it cheaper to just buy a new drill set or collection of drills than fuzing around trying to sharpen them. OTOH, I don't earn my living drilling holes and it rapidly became obvious that as far as "drill sharpening devices" went one size/type/style didn't fit all and apart from a pileof files, that's enough. I'll go as far as touching up a chain saw every cut on dry redgum or yellow box(realraiway sleepers), but life is too short to touch up a drill for every hole. |
#94
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Bottle holder
On 5/23/2019 9:40 PM, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 10:46:42 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:14:40 -0500, AMuzi wrote: Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit?? Apparently someone that posts here as I remember the implication and sharp drills were only found in machine shops :-) Yep, YMMV, but I've always found it cheaper to just buy a new drill set or collection of drills than fuzing around trying to sharpen them. I keep a stock of replacement bits in common sizes so I can keep the sets whole, but I limit my sharpening efforts to more expensive things like chain saw chains, and circular saw blades. I was installing laminate flooring in a rental unit and the surface is so hard that the blades on the flooring saw get dull very quickly, and at $9.99 per blade you don't want to be throwing them away. OTOH, I don't earn my living drilling holes and it rapidly became obvious that as far as "drill sharpening devices" went one size/type/style didn't fit all and apart from a pileof files, that's enough. You can buy a decent drill bit sharpener for under $150, but you'd have to sharpen a LOT of bits before you'd break even. Don't buy the $29.99 Harbor Freight bit sharpener. I'll go as far as touching up a chain saw every cut on dry redgum or yellow box(realraiway sleepers), but life is too short to touch up a drill for every hole. +1 |
#95
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 16:50:58 -0700, sms
wrote: On 5/23/2019 8:52 AM, Duane wrote: snip Much simpler to just make sure the bike has a couple of water bottle mounts when you buy it... True, but the original poster bought a very inexpensive Huffy, likely at Walmart. On these bikes they don't have the factory include such expensive luxuries as bottle mounts. Now he has to choose from one of many choices: 1. Buy a jig for $50 or so, buy a right-angle drill or close-quarters drill (or a right angle adapter), buy some Rivnuts, buy some paint, and install bottle mounts directly into the frame. Perhaps drill a drain hole in the bottom bracket. 2. Build a jig or try to drill accurate holes free-hand without a jig, buy some Rivnuts, buy some paint, and install bottle mounts directly into the frame. Perhaps drill a drain hole in the bottom bracket. 3. Use a kluge like hose clamps or cable ties. 4. Buy an accessory that creates water bottle bosses with clamps or straps that go around the frame tube. 5. Use a handlebar or seat bottle cage mount. Most people would choose 4 or 5. It would be $5-12 well spent. Most people would agree with the experts and understand that drilling holes in their frame is a not a great idea. As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept.", though on a sub-$100 bicycle it's probably no big deal to destroy the frame if you screw up, and you could always use a clamp that covers up the hole.. Further to Jobst's comments. I'm afraid I know many people who see no problems what so ever in drilling holes in frames - literally every custom frame builder I have ever been in contact with will put as many bottle cages on your new bike as you ask for. And every cage requires two holes to mount. -- cheers, John B. |
#96
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 21:09:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 5/23/2019 7:14 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 5/23/2019 5:28 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:49:10 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/22/2019 10:56 PM, sms wrote: On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip Ok, I yield.* A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame.* I tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling machine.* As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame. Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/ snip Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill. One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist." Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the frame afterward. "don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame." Why ever not? "drill bit shifted to the side a little." With a centerpunch dimple and a drill sharpened to be symmetric they don't walk. Ah but... it sounds as though your shop can sharpen a drill bit, but from what I read here it is a very difficult task that only certain shops can accomplish :-) Perhaps the subject got an advert? We can sharpen a drill bit! Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit?? You'd be surprised. I do it for a couple of guys I know. They act like it's magic! One of the A.F. machine shops I was assigned to had no drill sharpening "utensils" what so ever as the Shop Chief, a grizzled old fellow that did his apprenticeship at Morse Twist Drill, I believe, said that sharpening a drill was such a basic skill that everybody must know how to do it. :-) -- cheers, John B. |
#97
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Bottle holder
On Fri, 24 May 2019 04:40:50 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote: On Fri, 24 May 2019 10:46:42 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:14:40 -0500, AMuzi wrote: Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit?? Apparently someone that posts here as I remember the implication and sharp drills were only found in machine shops :-) Yep, YMMV, but I've always found it cheaper to just buy a new drill set or collection of drills than fuzing around trying to sharpen them. OTOH, I don't earn my living drilling holes and it rapidly became obvious that as far as "drill sharpening devices" went one size/type/style didn't fit all and apart from a pileof files, that's enough. I'll go as far as touching up a chain saw every cut on dry redgum or yellow box(realraiway sleepers), but life is too short to touch up a drill for every hole. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But sharpening drills is just two passes across the grinding wheel and a chain saw has a multitude of teeth :-) -- cheers, John B. |
#98
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 11:10:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 5/23/2019 1:16 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Tue, 21 May 2019 21:21:12 -0400, Joy Beeson wrote: I'm puzzled by the comment that one could cut oneself on the metal strap. I've been scratched by various bike parts, but the hose clamps have never even thought about it. That would be me. What I did was cut off the loose end of the metal strap flush with the hole clamp body. The down tube paint was protected by a strip of hard rubber. Over a few months, the clamp and rubber strip decided to move. So I tightened the screw on the clamp, which then exposed the end of the metal strap from the clamp body. I had previously rounded the sharp corners, but did not deburr the cut end. The result was a rather messy, but fortunately not very deep, slice in my leg when I performed an unscheduled and graceless dismount. I cut the metal strap shorter to avoid a repeat performance, but did nothing with the exposed hex screw head, which produced a minor gouge in the same place on my leg about a year later. Sorry to jump context, but both of those boo-boos would have been registered in the Portland study of bike commuters, Hoffman et. al., "Bicycle Commuter Injury Prevention," Journal of Trauma, V. 69 No. 5 They took great pains to record _every_ injury, no matter how tiny, and used the results to say we need bike lanes everywhere. IOW: Scratched by your hose clamp? Oh, if only there were a bike lane!!! Back to the topic: I'm a big fan of deburring sharp edges. It takes only a few seconds with a fine grinding wheel or a hand file. Back in the day, we were taught to deburr everything we did and most machinists kept a flat, single cut, file and a triangular scrapper in the top of his box and before you took the piece out of the machine you hit every shoulder with the file and the edges of every hole with the scrapper. -- cheers, John B. |
#99
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Bottle holder
On 5/24/2019 1:05 AM, John B. wrote:
snip Further to Jobst's comments. I'm afraid I know many people who see no problems what so ever in drilling holes in frames - literally every custom frame builder I have ever been in contact with will put as many bottle cages on your new bike as you ask for. And every cage requires two holes to mount. Hopefully you realize the difference between a custom frame builder drilling a frame for cage mounts and the owner of a Huffy doing the same. The former almost certainly has jigs for the task and is able to put in the mounts prior to assembling and painting the frame. If it's a steel or titanium frame, which is much more likely to be the case for a custom frame builder, then they're probably brazing on the mounts, not using Rivnuts. |
#100
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Bottle holder
On 5/24/2019 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:
snip Back in the day, we were taught to deburr everything we did and most machinists kept a flat, single cut, file and a triangular scrapper in the top of his box and before you took the piece out of the machine you hit every shoulder with the file and the edges of every hole with the scrapper. Well even without going to machinists school, deburring edges and holes is a pretty obvious thing that most people know to do. |
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