A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Bottle holder



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old May 24th 19, 04:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Bottle holder

On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:14:40 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2019 5:28 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:49:10 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/22/2019 10:56 PM, sms wrote:
On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle
frame. I
tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill
press or milling
machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on
an a frame.
Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig
https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/


snip

Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight
and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't
want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to
achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished
frame with a right-angle drill.

One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was
difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit
tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a
small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted
to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted
in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned
along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by
much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and
caused the cage to twist."

Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to
ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in
since you won't be painting the frame afterward.

"don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame."
Why ever not?

"drill bit shifted to the side a little."
With a centerpunch dimple and a drill sharpened to be
symmetric they don't walk.


Ah but... it sounds as though your shop can sharpen a drill bit, but
from what I read here it is a very difficult task that only certain
shops can accomplish :-)

Perhaps the subject got an advert? We can sharpen a drill bit!


Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit??


Apparently someone that posts here as I remember the implication and
sharp drills were only found in machine shops :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.
Ads
  #92  
Old May 24th 19, 04:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Bottle holder

On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:56:28 -0700, sms wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:34 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

No, sorry, they didn't teach us about stress concentrations when
drilling holes, primarily because any hole is a stress concentration,
at least to some extent. And it is illogical to think that one can
change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some special manner.


It is not illogical at all. It is a fact. There is just no way that any
course in machining would not teach about how to reduce stress
concentration of holes drilled into metal. You might want to ask for a
partial refund if that school is still in existence.


IME, the guy(usually) who says what size hole is to be drillled and where
is the one who might just conceivably have a clue about stresses related
to hole drilling, though it is usually a special additioanl subject.

OTOH, the guy actually drilling the hole just has a job sheet with spec
to do so, if he has even got that much.

We just had a spectacular example of the result of improper drilling of
holes in steel beams in San Francisco, but these were not drilled by
journeyman machinists.


Entirely different situation to the sheet metal in a bicycle frame.

  #93  
Old May 24th 19, 05:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Bottle holder

On Fri, 24 May 2019 10:46:42 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:

On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:14:40 -0500, AMuzi wrote:


Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit??


Apparently someone that posts here as I remember the implication and
sharp drills were only found in machine shops :-)


Yep, YMMV, but I've always found it cheaper to just buy a new drill set
or collection of drills than fuzing around trying to sharpen them.

OTOH, I don't earn my living drilling holes and it rapidly became obvious
that as far as "drill sharpening devices" went one size/type/style
didn't fit all and apart from a pileof files, that's enough.

I'll go as far as touching up a chain saw every cut on dry redgum or
yellow box(realraiway sleepers), but life is too short to touch up a
drill for every hole.

  #94  
Old May 24th 19, 08:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Bottle holder

On 5/23/2019 9:40 PM, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 24 May 2019 10:46:42 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:

On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:14:40 -0500, AMuzi wrote:


Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit??


Apparently someone that posts here as I remember the implication and
sharp drills were only found in machine shops :-)


Yep, YMMV, but I've always found it cheaper to just buy a new drill set
or collection of drills than fuzing around trying to sharpen them.


I keep a stock of replacement bits in common sizes so I can keep the
sets whole, but I limit my sharpening efforts to more expensive things
like chain saw chains, and circular saw blades. I was installing
laminate flooring in a rental unit and the surface is so hard that the
blades on the flooring saw get dull very quickly, and at $9.99 per blade
you don't want to be throwing them away.

OTOH, I don't earn my living drilling holes and it rapidly became obvious
that as far as "drill sharpening devices" went one size/type/style
didn't fit all and apart from a pileof files, that's enough.


You can buy a decent drill bit sharpener for under $150, but you'd have
to sharpen a LOT of bits before you'd break even. Don't buy the $29.99
Harbor Freight bit sharpener.

I'll go as far as touching up a chain saw every cut on dry redgum or
yellow box(realraiway sleepers), but life is too short to touch up a
drill for every hole.


+1
  #95  
Old May 24th 19, 09:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Thu, 23 May 2019 16:50:58 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 8:52 AM, Duane wrote:

snip

Much simpler to just make sure the bike has a couple of water bottle
mounts when you buy it...


True, but the original poster bought a very inexpensive Huffy, likely at
Walmart. On these bikes they don't have the factory include such
expensive luxuries as bottle mounts.

Now he has to choose from one of many choices:

1. Buy a jig for $50 or so, buy a right-angle drill or close-quarters
drill (or a right angle adapter), buy some Rivnuts, buy some paint, and
install bottle mounts directly into the frame. Perhaps drill a drain
hole in the bottom bracket.

2. Build a jig or try to drill accurate holes free-hand without a jig,
buy some Rivnuts, buy some paint, and install bottle mounts directly
into the frame. Perhaps drill a drain hole in the bottom bracket.

3. Use a kluge like hose clamps or cable ties.

4. Buy an accessory that creates water bottle bosses with clamps or
straps that go around the frame tube.

5. Use a handlebar or seat bottle cage mount.

Most people would choose 4 or 5. It would be $5-12 well spent. Most
people would agree with the experts and understand that drilling holes
in their frame is a not a great idea. As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't
know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a
reasonable concept.", though on a sub-$100 bicycle it's probably no big
deal to destroy the frame if you screw up, and you could always use a
clamp that covers up the hole..


Further to Jobst's comments. I'm afraid I know many people who see no
problems what so ever in drilling holes in frames - literally every
custom frame builder I have ever been in contact with will put as many
bottle cages on your new bike as you ask for. And every cage requires
two holes to mount.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #96  
Old May 24th 19, 09:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Thu, 23 May 2019 21:09:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 7:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/23/2019 5:28 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:49:10 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/22/2019 10:56 PM, sms wrote:
On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Ok, I yield.* A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle
frame.* I
tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill
press or milling
machine.* As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on
an a frame.
Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig
https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/



snip

Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight
and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't
want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to
achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished
frame with a right-angle drill.

One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was
difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit
tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a
small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted
to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted
in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned
along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by
much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and
caused the cage to twist."

Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to
ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in
since you won't be painting the frame afterward.

"don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame."
Why ever not?

"drill bit shifted to the side a little."
With a centerpunch dimple and a drill sharpened to be
symmetric they don't walk.

Ah but... it sounds as though your shop can sharpen a drill bit, but
from what I read here it is a very difficult task that only certain
shops can accomplish :-)

Perhaps the subject got an advert? We can sharpen a drill bit!


Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit??


You'd be surprised. I do it for a couple of guys I know. They act like
it's magic!


One of the A.F. machine shops I was assigned to had no drill
sharpening "utensils" what so ever as the Shop Chief, a grizzled old
fellow that did his apprenticeship at Morse Twist Drill, I believe,
said that sharpening a drill was such a basic skill that everybody
must know how to do it. :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #97  
Old May 24th 19, 09:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Fri, 24 May 2019 04:40:50 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Fri, 24 May 2019 10:46:42 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:

On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:14:40 -0500, AMuzi wrote:


Geez. Who can't sharpen a drill bit??


Apparently someone that posts here as I remember the implication and
sharp drills were only found in machine shops :-)


Yep, YMMV, but I've always found it cheaper to just buy a new drill set
or collection of drills than fuzing around trying to sharpen them.

OTOH, I don't earn my living drilling holes and it rapidly became obvious
that as far as "drill sharpening devices" went one size/type/style
didn't fit all and apart from a pileof files, that's enough.

I'll go as far as touching up a chain saw every cut on dry redgum or
yellow box(realraiway sleepers), but life is too short to touch up a
drill for every hole.


Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But sharpening drills
is just two passes across the grinding wheel and a chain saw has a
multitude of teeth :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #98  
Old May 24th 19, 09:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Thu, 23 May 2019 11:10:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 1:16 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 21:21:12 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote:

I'm puzzled by the comment that one could cut oneself on the metal
strap. I've been scratched by various bike parts, but the hose clamps
have never even thought about it.


That would be me. What I did was cut off the loose end of the metal
strap flush with the hole clamp body. The down tube paint was
protected by a strip of hard rubber. Over a few months, the clamp and
rubber strip decided to move. So I tightened the screw on the clamp,
which then exposed the end of the metal strap from the clamp body. I
had previously rounded the sharp corners, but did not deburr the cut
end. The result was a rather messy, but fortunately not very deep,
slice in my leg when I performed an unscheduled and graceless
dismount. I cut the metal strap shorter to avoid a repeat
performance, but did nothing with the exposed hex screw head, which
produced a minor gouge in the same place on my leg about a year later.


Sorry to jump context, but both of those boo-boos would have been
registered in the Portland study of bike commuters, Hoffman et. al.,
"Bicycle Commuter Injury Prevention," Journal of Trauma, V. 69 No. 5

They took great pains to record _every_ injury, no matter how tiny, and
used the results to say we need bike lanes everywhere.

IOW: Scratched by your hose clamp? Oh, if only there were a bike lane!!!

Back to the topic: I'm a big fan of deburring sharp edges. It takes only
a few seconds with a fine grinding wheel or a hand file.


Back in the day, we were taught to deburr everything we did and most
machinists kept a flat, single cut, file and a triangular scrapper in
the top of his box and before you took the piece out of the machine
you hit every shoulder with the file and the edges of every hole with
the scrapper.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #99  
Old May 24th 19, 10:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Bottle holder

On 5/24/2019 1:05 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Further to Jobst's comments. I'm afraid I know many people who see no
problems what so ever in drilling holes in frames - literally every
custom frame builder I have ever been in contact with will put as many
bottle cages on your new bike as you ask for. And every cage requires
two holes to mount.


Hopefully you realize the difference between a custom frame builder
drilling a frame for cage mounts and the owner of a Huffy doing the same.

The former almost certainly has jigs for the task and is able to put in
the mounts prior to assembling and painting the frame. If it's a steel
or titanium frame, which is much more likely to be the case for a custom
frame builder, then they're probably brazing on the mounts, not using
Rivnuts.
  #100  
Old May 24th 19, 10:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Bottle holder

On 5/24/2019 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Back in the day, we were taught to deburr everything we did and most
machinists kept a flat, single cut, file and a triangular scrapper in
the top of his box and before you took the piece out of the machine
you hit every shoulder with the file and the edges of every hole with
the scrapper.


Well even without going to machinists school, deburring edges and holes
is a pretty obvious thing that most people know to do.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
One size fits all Bottle / Tool Pouch Holder - DOM Monkii Cage/Wedge bayecotech General 0 November 21st 10 10:21 PM
Bottle holder broken during downhill Fast Turtle General 9 May 1st 05 03:32 AM
Bottle cage jacket holder - revisited MSA UK 12 March 23rd 05 07:19 PM
F/S: Velocity clamp on bottle cage holder Mariano pacini Marketplace 0 December 6th 04 04:27 PM
Bottle Holder? daino149 Unicycling 7 November 23rd 03 09:03 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.