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Bottle holder



 
 
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  #31  
Old May 22nd 19, 02:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Bottle holder

On Wed, 22 May 2019 06:26:45 +0700, John B.
wrote:

please awaken us and tell us exactly what "machine
shop" features one requires to drill holes in a thin tube?


Probably a V-block and a drill press. I have several of these:
https://www.eastwood.com/drill-press-v-block-fixture-center-it.html
More of the same:
https://www.google.com/search?q=v+block&tbm=isch
Add a proper installation tool:
https://www.amazon.com/RZX-Riveter-Riveting-Setting-mandrels/dp/B07P7M4BKF/
Also, I suppose a sharp drill bit, which only seems to be found in a
machine shop, would be useful.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Ads
  #32  
Old May 22nd 19, 02:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,638
Default Bottle holder

On Mon, 20 May 2019 12:50:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And there are always hose clamps.
https://cloudfront.zoro.com/product/..._J6zyfo5oy.JPG


Mine have been holding fine without bringing themselves to my
attention for at least thirty years -- I had to go out and look to
make sure that that was what was holding my bottle cages on.

Put a few turns of handlbar tape around the tube first, to prevent
paint scratching and slippage.

I'm puzzled by the comment that one could cut oneself on the metal
strap. I've been scratched by various bike parts, but the hose clamps
have never even thought about it.

So I went back to the garage. I found that if I made a special
effort, I could touch the corner of the end of one strap, and if I
were to push hard, I could probable cut or at least bruise the end of
my finger.

I think I could see the end of the strap holding the other bottle cage
on, but I couldn't touch it.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


  #33  
Old May 22nd 19, 02:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Tue, 21 May 2019 18:35:50 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/21/2019 6:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 08:32:02 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/20/2019 5:21 AM, AK wrote:
I want to get a bottle holder for my bike.

It has no pre-drilled holes for the holder.

I found some that clamp on but not sure if they would work with the wide tube that I would need to mount it to.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/llqwef4nym...71257.jpg?dl=0

Andy

Try these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001EIEHEC

This web site may help you find a product that will work:
http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/


Well, your vaunted site, that claims to be an expert on rivnuts since
2002 is wrong in their statement that

"A properly installed Rivnut does not exert any stress on the inner
and outer walls of the tubing. The stress all radiates outward from
the splines of the Rivnut into the circumference of the hole.The
friction between the splines of the Rivnut and the hole keep it from
rotating."

There are some twenty, or so, different types of rivnuts today and a
number of them do not, in fact, have "splines" and they all do depend
on compression to resist torque loads and yes, some of them do have
added features to resist torque loads to a even greater extent.

You state that
"Without a machine shop, It would be very hard for someone to drill
perfectly sized holes, perfectly straight, and compress the Rivnut to
the exact optimum tightness. In a steel frame it's not a big deal if
it's not exactly right. In an aluminum frame it's a very big deal
because the integrity of the frame will be compromised. And even if
you managed to do it properly, you've still voided your frame
warranty"

To date, I have seen no evidence that you actually know what you are
talking about so please awaken us and tell us exactly what "machine
shop" features one requires to drill holes in a thin tube?

Oh yes! I quote from the "installation Instructions" of a major
supplier of "rivnuts" who says "These blind rivet nuts provide a
robust, versatile alternative to standard nuts and bolts. A low
profile design provides near-flush installation with no special hole
preparation required"

You might want to go into some detail about how rivnuts, that were
originally designed for and used on aircraft structures, are
installed? Do you actually suppose that an entire airplane is hauled
into some mythical "machine shop" to have a 1/4" hole drilled in the
wing.

In fact your entire site is simply one large exhibit of
miss-information, or to be less polite, "lies".

But, perhaps I am wrong so you might take the time to demonstrate that
you actually do know what you are talking about - with some reference
to keep you from telling lies, of course.



Are you telling me that aircraft rivnuts are assembled
without drilling letter D then carefully reaming to a very
round 0.25000"? A common 1/4" drill might be good enough
for warplanes but risky on a chinese aluminum bicycle!


Well, why not just drill, oh say 1/64th undersize and ream with a 1/4"
(to use your terminology) drill. I'd probably use metric as I believe
that the maker recommends a 7mm hole +0.1 - 0.0 for a M5- 0.8 rivnut .
If you use a 0.250 reamer you'll have to wallow out the hole a bit :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #34  
Old May 22nd 19, 02:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Wed, 22 May 2019 07:56:31 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Tue, 21 May 2019 10:26:46 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/21/2019 10:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

$12 for two straps? That seems rather expensive.


It is. But a kluge of cable ties and associated bits and pieces is not
going to work as well and by the time you buy all the parts you'll spend
more time cobbling it together.

There are also the Zefal Gizmo clamps
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MSM1O1H and the Topeak Versa Mount
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077S5G4SL.

Above all, don't use hose clamps! And don't drill holes in the frame for
Rivnuts.


Why ever not? Can you supply us with any evidence that installing a
rivnut, or two, significantly weakens a frame?

But lets figure it out.
Frank tells us that he is a PE which means that he has both the "book
learning" and the hands on experience to be an engineer so I'll leave
the actual calculations up to him.

Material
Columbus double butted Niobium alloy seamless tube (The most famous
Columbus round set)

SL Seat Tube
O.D. 31.7mm
Wall thickness - 0.5mm
Wall thickness at butt - 0.8mm
(Note: Butted end for installation in Bottom Bracket)

Material - Niobium is a special steel with Manganese, Chrome, Nickel,
Molybdenum and Niobium.
Mechanical Properties:
UTS: 1050÷1150 MPa, Ys = 750MPa, Ap5 14%.

Project:
Two holes in tube to support bottle cage
Holes on 7 cm. centers
Fastener:
M4 x 0.70 Rivet Nut, Large Flange, Smooth Body
Recommended hole size - 6mm +0.1 - 0.0


Or maybe a M5-0.8 rivnut with a recommended hole size of 7mm +0.1-0.0

Questions: (a) actual loss in strength in actual PSI/MPa and % of tube
strength lost, and (b) is this considered a significant loss in frame
strength?

--
cheers,

John B.

  #35  
Old May 22nd 19, 02:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Tue, 21 May 2019 18:35:50 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/21/2019 6:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 08:32:02 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/20/2019 5:21 AM, AK wrote:
I want to get a bottle holder for my bike.

It has no pre-drilled holes for the holder.

I found some that clamp on but not sure if they would work with the wide tube that I would need to mount it to.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/llqwef4nym...71257.jpg?dl=0

Andy

Try these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001EIEHEC

This web site may help you find a product that will work:
http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/


Well, your vaunted site, that claims to be an expert on rivnuts since
2002 is wrong in their statement that

"A properly installed Rivnut does not exert any stress on the inner
and outer walls of the tubing. The stress all radiates outward from
the splines of the Rivnut into the circumference of the hole.The
friction between the splines of the Rivnut and the hole keep it from
rotating."

There are some twenty, or so, different types of rivnuts today and a
number of them do not, in fact, have "splines" and they all do depend
on compression to resist torque loads and yes, some of them do have
added features to resist torque loads to a even greater extent.

You state that
"Without a machine shop, It would be very hard for someone to drill
perfectly sized holes, perfectly straight, and compress the Rivnut to
the exact optimum tightness. In a steel frame it's not a big deal if
it's not exactly right. In an aluminum frame it's a very big deal
because the integrity of the frame will be compromised. And even if
you managed to do it properly, you've still voided your frame
warranty"

To date, I have seen no evidence that you actually know what you are
talking about so please awaken us and tell us exactly what "machine
shop" features one requires to drill holes in a thin tube?

Oh yes! I quote from the "installation Instructions" of a major
supplier of "rivnuts" who says "These blind rivet nuts provide a
robust, versatile alternative to standard nuts and bolts. A low
profile design provides near-flush installation with no special hole
preparation required"

You might want to go into some detail about how rivnuts, that were
originally designed for and used on aircraft structures, are
installed? Do you actually suppose that an entire airplane is hauled
into some mythical "machine shop" to have a 1/4" hole drilled in the
wing.

In fact your entire site is simply one large exhibit of
miss-information, or to be less polite, "lies".

But, perhaps I am wrong so you might take the time to demonstrate that
you actually do know what you are talking about - with some reference
to keep you from telling lies, of course.



Are you telling me that aircraft rivnuts are assembled
without drilling letter D then carefully reaming to a very
round 0.25000"? A common 1/4" drill might be good enough
for warplanes but risky on a chinese aluminum bicycle!


If you ever actually watched a bunch of "tin benders", i.e. aircraft
sheet metal workers, actually working you would be appalled.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #36  
Old May 22nd 19, 02:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Tue, 21 May 2019 17:53:29 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Tuesday, May 21, 2019 at 7:26:59 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 08:32:02 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/20/2019 5:21 AM, AK wrote:
I want to get a bottle holder for my bike.

It has no pre-drilled holes for the holder.

I found some that clamp on but not sure if they would work with the wide tube that I would need to mount it to.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/llqwef4nym...71257.jpg?dl=0

Andy

Try these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001EIEHEC

This web site may help you find a product that will work:
http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/


Well, your vaunted site, that claims to be an expert on rivnuts since
2002 is wrong in their statement that

"A properly installed Rivnut does not exert any stress on the inner
and outer walls of the tubing. The stress all radiates outward from
the splines of the Rivnut into the circumference of the hole.The
friction between the splines of the Rivnut and the hole keep it from
rotating."

There are some twenty, or so, different types of rivnuts today and a
number of them do not, in fact, have "splines" and they all do depend
on compression to resist torque loads and yes, some of them do have
added features to resist torque loads to a even greater extent.

You state that
"Without a machine shop, It would be very hard for someone to drill
perfectly sized holes, perfectly straight, and compress the Rivnut to
the exact optimum tightness. In a steel frame it's not a big deal if
it's not exactly right. In an aluminum frame it's a very big deal
because the integrity of the frame will be compromised. And even if
you managed to do it properly, you've still voided your frame
warranty"

To date, I have seen no evidence that you actually know what you are
talking about so please awaken us and tell us exactly what "machine
shop" features one requires to drill holes in a thin tube?

Oh yes! I quote from the "installation Instructions" of a major
supplier of "rivnuts" who says "These blind rivet nuts provide a
robust, versatile alternative to standard nuts and bolts. A low
profile design provides near-flush installation with no special hole
preparation required"

You might want to go into some detail about how rivnuts, that were
originally designed for and used on aircraft structures, are
installed? Do you actually suppose that an entire airplane is hauled
into some mythical "machine shop" to have a 1/4" hole drilled in the
wing.

In fact your entire site is simply one large exhibit of
miss-information, or to be less polite, "lies".

But, perhaps I am wrong so you might take the time to demonstrate that
you actually do know what you are talking about - with some reference
to keep you from telling lies, of course.
--
cheers,

John B.


That site that SMS linked to is just one of many reasons why anyone should take ANYTHING he says with a grain of salt. That's because he either outright lies or misrepresents data.

Cheers


Not to brag but I completed my apprenticeship as a machinist in 1950.
I wonder what his qualifications are?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #37  
Old May 22nd 19, 03:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Tue, 21 May 2019 18:17:57 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 22 May 2019 06:26:45 +0700, John B.
wrote:

please awaken us and tell us exactly what "machine
shop" features one requires to drill holes in a thin tube?


Probably a V-block and a drill press. I have several of these:
https://www.eastwood.com/drill-press-v-block-fixture-center-it.html

Yes a vee block and a drill press... ever try to squeeze a drill press
into a bicycle frame? Maybe https://tinyurl.com/y42ws9q4

More of the same:
https://www.google.com/search?q=v+block&tbm=isch
Add a proper installation tool:
https://www.amazon.com/RZX-Riveter-Riveting-Setting-mandrels/dp/B07P7M4BKF/

Ah yes. But do you notice that this tool is described as "This is the
most labor-saving riveting gun on the market" Do we need a "labor
saving riveting gun" to install two rivnuts? At $69.98?
When ParkTools tells us how to install rivnuts with simple hand tools
that almost anyone has already? That would be what? ~$35 a rivnut
versus ~$0.00 a rivnut for tooling?

Also, I suppose a sharp drill bit, which only seems to be found in a
machine shop, would be useful.


:-) Why, you can actually buy a brand new, sharp, drill bit at Home
Pro or, probably, many other shops. I see a M7 drill bit listed on the
Internet at A$3.36. That is Australian dollars, about 1.37, or so to
the U.S. dollar. So US$2.45 for a brand new sharp drill bit divided by
two holes is $1.22 per hole versus, what did you post? $35 a hole?

It appears that Y'all have a very large cache of "disposable income"
:-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #38  
Old May 22nd 19, 03:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Tue, 21 May 2019 21:21:12 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote:

On Mon, 20 May 2019 12:50:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And there are always hose clamps.
https://cloudfront.zoro.com/product/..._J6zyfo5oy.JPG


Mine have been holding fine without bringing themselves to my
attention for at least thirty years -- I had to go out and look to
make sure that that was what was holding my bottle cages on.

Put a few turns of handlbar tape around the tube first, to prevent
paint scratching and slippage.

I'm puzzled by the comment that one could cut oneself on the metal
strap. I've been scratched by various bike parts, but the hose clamps
have never even thought about it.

So I went back to the garage. I found that if I made a special
effort, I could touch the corner of the end of one strap, and if I
were to push hard, I could probable cut or at least bruise the end of
my finger.

I think I could see the end of the strap holding the other bottle cage
on, but I couldn't touch it.


One can only assume that some of our illustrious readers are somewhat
accident prone :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #39  
Old May 22nd 19, 03:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Bottle holder

On 5/21/2019 8:56 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 10:26:46 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/21/2019 10:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

$12 for two straps? That seems rather expensive.


It is. But a kluge of cable ties and associated bits and pieces is not
going to work as well and by the time you buy all the parts you'll spend
more time cobbling it together.

There are also the Zefal Gizmo clamps
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MSM1O1H and the Topeak Versa Mount
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077S5G4SL.

Above all, don't use hose clamps! And don't drill holes in the frame for
Rivnuts.


Why ever not? Can you supply us with any evidence that installing a
rivnut, or two, significantly weakens a frame?

But lets figure it out.
Frank tells us that he is a PE which means that he has both the "book
learning" and the hands on experience to be an engineer so I'll leave
the actual calculations up to him.

Material
Columbus double butted Niobium alloy seamless tube (The most famous
Columbus round set)

SL Seat Tube
O.D. 31.7mm
Wall thickness - 0.5mm
Wall thickness at butt - 0.8mm
(Note: Butted end for installation in Bottom Bracket)

Material - Niobium is a special steel with Manganese, Chrome, Nickel,
Molybdenum and Niobium.
Mechanical Properties:
UTS: 1050÷1150 MPa, Ys = 750MPa, Ap5 14%.

Project:
Two holes in tube to support bottle cage
Holes on 7 cm. centers
Fastener:
M4 x 0.70 Rivet Nut, Large Flange, Smooth Body
Recommended hole size - 6mm +0.1 - 0.0

Questions: (a) actual loss in strength in actual PSI/MPa and % of tube
strength lost, and (b) is this considered a significant loss in frame
strength?


Actually, I don't think this is calculable. Even approximately
calculating the maximum stress in a bike's down tube is difficult
without modeling the entire frame using finite element analysis (FEA),
and even then you have to make significant assumptions about the
magnitude and nature of the loads.

If you did use that or some other method to approximate stresses on a
plain tube, there are charts to allow approximating the stress
concentration factor from a hole in the tube. Something like this:
https://classes.mst.edu/civeng110/co...tration/10.gif but
for a tube instead of a solid shaft. You'd multiply by that factor to
get the new peak stress.

BUT that factor, if available, would doubtlessly be for an unreinforced
hole. Much of the point of a Rivnut is to reinforce the tube wall where
it's installed. The clamping action (and resulting compression stress in
the wall) reduce the tendency for fatigue cracks, which is what you'd be
worried about. (Fatigue cracks start in tension.) And the extra material
of the Rivnut itself provides more reinforcement.

Alternately, you could do a very detailed FEA model of the tube plus
Rivnut, first to approximate the results of the installation, then to
approximate the stress distribution under load. But I suspect your model
would need elements as small as a few thousandths of an inch. Set aside
some serious computer time for the matrix calculations.

That's not going to be done by this (or probably any other) retired PE.
If anyone would do it, it would be either NASA or some poor Mechanical
Engineering student working on a thesis; and even then, the results
couldn't be trusted until they were verified in a lab.

In real life, manufacturers would probably do a few prototypes and test
them, until they determined that "Yep, these work fine. A Rivnut in a
hole is as strong as the original tube without a hole." Once that was
settled, only a few wackos would be say "Never use Rivnuts!"

Which is where we find ourselves today.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #40  
Old May 22nd 19, 04:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Bottle holder

On Tue, 21 May 2019 22:47:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/21/2019 8:56 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 10:26:46 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/21/2019 10:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

$12 for two straps? That seems rather expensive.

It is. But a kluge of cable ties and associated bits and pieces is not
going to work as well and by the time you buy all the parts you'll spend
more time cobbling it together.

There are also the Zefal Gizmo clamps
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MSM1O1H and the Topeak Versa Mount
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077S5G4SL.

Above all, don't use hose clamps! And don't drill holes in the frame for
Rivnuts.


Why ever not? Can you supply us with any evidence that installing a
rivnut, or two, significantly weakens a frame?

But lets figure it out.
Frank tells us that he is a PE which means that he has both the "book
learning" and the hands on experience to be an engineer so I'll leave
the actual calculations up to him.

Material
Columbus double butted Niobium alloy seamless tube (The most famous
Columbus round set)

SL Seat Tube
O.D. 31.7mm
Wall thickness - 0.5mm
Wall thickness at butt - 0.8mm
(Note: Butted end for installation in Bottom Bracket)

Material - Niobium is a special steel with Manganese, Chrome, Nickel,
Molybdenum and Niobium.
Mechanical Properties:
UTS: 1050÷1150 MPa, Ys = 750MPa, Ap5 14%.

Project:
Two holes in tube to support bottle cage
Holes on 7 cm. centers
Fastener:
M4 x 0.70 Rivet Nut, Large Flange, Smooth Body
Recommended hole size - 6mm +0.1 - 0.0

Questions: (a) actual loss in strength in actual PSI/MPa and % of tube
strength lost, and (b) is this considered a significant loss in frame
strength?


Actually, I don't think this is calculable. Even approximately
calculating the maximum stress in a bike's down tube is difficult
without modeling the entire frame using finite element analysis (FEA),
and even then you have to make significant assumptions about the
magnitude and nature of the loads.

If you did use that or some other method to approximate stresses on a
plain tube, there are charts to allow approximating the stress
concentration factor from a hole in the tube. Something like this:
https://classes.mst.edu/civeng110/co...tration/10.gif but
for a tube instead of a solid shaft. You'd multiply by that factor to
get the new peak stress.

BUT that factor, if available, would doubtlessly be for an unreinforced
hole. Much of the point of a Rivnut is to reinforce the tube wall where
it's installed. The clamping action (and resulting compression stress in
the wall) reduce the tendency for fatigue cracks, which is what you'd be
worried about. (Fatigue cracks start in tension.) And the extra material
of the Rivnut itself provides more reinforcement.

Alternately, you could do a very detailed FEA model of the tube plus
Rivnut, first to approximate the results of the installation, then to
approximate the stress distribution under load. But I suspect your model
would need elements as small as a few thousandths of an inch. Set aside
some serious computer time for the matrix calculations.

That's not going to be done by this (or probably any other) retired PE.
If anyone would do it, it would be either NASA or some poor Mechanical
Engineering student working on a thesis; and even then, the results
couldn't be trusted until they were verified in a lab.

In real life, manufacturers would probably do a few prototypes and test
them, until they determined that "Yep, these work fine. A Rivnut in a
hole is as strong as the original tube without a hole." Once that was
settled, only a few wackos would be say "Never use Rivnuts!"

Which is where we find ourselves today.


And yet again an acknowledged authority tells us that SMS doesn't know
what he is talking about :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

 




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