A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Racing
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

A good time for 10km TT?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #111  
Old June 21st 06, 01:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A good time for 10km TT?

in message . com, Bret
') wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:

As someone pointed out - the fastest TT ever was Greg LeMond using
aero bars. Maybe you'd like to explain to us the reason that total
wind tunnel tuning, total aero equipment and total dedication hasn't
been able to break that record again? After all, that was 17 years
ago. Are you telling us that aero hasn't improved immeasurably since
then?


Wow. It was the fastest TDF TT at the time, but Boardman has since
bested it. It was also wind aided and so useless for comparison
purposes. You need to find a better factoid to bolster your straight
from the gut assumptions. Do you know you have more nerve endings in
your gut than you have in your head?

I suppose CURT HARNETT has the fastest TT ever (flying 200m) if you
ignore paced and downhill TTs.


Errr. Sam Whittingham. But he was using aero equipment.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; IE 3 is dead, but Netscape 4 still shambles about the earth,
;; wreaking a horrific vengeance upon the living
;; anonymous
Ads
  #112  
Old June 21st 06, 05:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A good time for 10km TT?

Tom Kunich wrote:

I'm trying to dictate how people will spend their money? Who is selling a
book on speed? Who is making money off of software purported to make
cyclists faster? Am I making a living writing about speed?

Now let's get this straight Andrew, I'm not accusing you of being mercenary.
I'm accusing you of being nothing more than biased.


What does my advocacy of powermeter use have to do with whether or not
aerodynamic equipment works regardless of a rider's skill/speed? There
is obviously no logical connection, so even if I were making any
significant money from the sale of CyclingPeaks and "Training and
Racing with a Powermeter" - which I'm not - your accusation would be
baseless. Thus, that you should make it merely serves to illustrate the
weakness of your position on the topic at hand.

Andy Coggan

  #113  
Old June 21st 06, 05:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A good time for 10km TT?

Bret wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:

As someone pointed out - the fastest TT ever was Greg LeMond using aero
bars. Maybe you'd like to explain to us the reason that total wind tunnel
tuning, total aero equipment and total dedication hasn't been able to break
that record again? After all, that was 17 years ago. Are you telling us that
aero hasn't improved immeasurably since then?


Wow. It was the fastest TDF TT at the time, but Boardman has since
bested it.


I thought Dave Z now held the record (set, not coincidentally, using
extremely aerodynamic equipment)?

Andy Coggan

  #114  
Old June 21st 06, 06:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default KOOKALICIOUS: A good time for 10km TT?


Tom Kunich wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
There's a point at which a guy starts getting good at
TTing and that's the time he should start thinking about aero equipment.
Before that it's just a waste of money.


There you go trying to dictate how people should spend their money
again...


As someone pointed out - the fastest TT ever was Greg LeMond using aero
bars. Maybe you'd like to explain to us the reason that total wind tunnel
tuning, total aero equipment and total dedication hasn't been able to break
that record again? After all, that was 17 years ago. Are you telling us that
aero hasn't improved immeasurably since then?

If memory serves, Fignon wasn't even second in the final TT and someone else
without aero stuff finished close enough to Greg to still be one of the
fastest TT's ever even without aero bars.

I'm trying to dictate how people will spend their money? Who is selling a
book on speed? Who is making money off of software purported to make
cyclists faster? Am I making a living writing about speed?

Now let's get this straight Andrew, I'm not accusing you of being mercenary.
I'm accusing you of being nothing more than biased.


Tom -

A few days ago I thanked Sierraman for definitively demonstrating that
he, and not you, is the ultimate r.b.r. kook. And now here you are,
making a late charge after I, we, thought this was settled.

Tom, please - we need closure on this. Even if you really are that
kooky, can you reign it in, at least for a few weeks? Then, when we
have forgotten about Sierraman, you can unleash your full kookitude
again.

Thanks.

-RJ

  #116  
Old June 21st 06, 06:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A good time for 10km TT?


Simon Brooke wrote:
in message . com, Bret
') wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:

As someone pointed out - the fastest TT ever was Greg LeMond using
aero bars. Maybe you'd like to explain to us the reason that total
wind tunnel tuning, total aero equipment and total dedication hasn't
been able to break that record again? After all, that was 17 years
ago. Are you telling us that aero hasn't improved immeasurably since
then?


Wow. It was the fastest TDF TT at the time, but Boardman has since
bested it. It was also wind aided and so useless for comparison
purposes. You need to find a better factoid to bolster your straight
from the gut assumptions. Do you know you have more nerve endings in
your gut than you have in your head?

I suppose CURT HARNETT has the fastest TT ever (flying 200m) if you
ignore paced and downhill TTs.


Errr. Sam Whittingham. But he was using aero equipment.


Right. I was one disclaimer short there. I should have said, "if you
ignore paced, downhill and wingnut TTs".

Bret

  #117  
Old June 21st 06, 07:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A good time for 10km TT?

To put some numbers on this discussion:

Stage 21, 1989 TdF
Versailles-Paris ITT
1. Greg LeMond 24.5 km in 26:57 (54.545 kph)

Stage 1, 2005 TdF
Fromentine-Noimoutier en l'Ile
1. Dave Zabriskie, 19 km in 20:51 (54.64 kph)

But the important facts here are 1) the Versailes-Paris course had a
significant elevation loss, and a tailwind was reported during LeMond's
run, and 2) Zabriskie was able to accomplish this *precisely* because
of his attention to aerodynamics, not his power output, which is the
level at which otherwise performs.

Something else:

On the tablet aero stuff looks like it should help everyone regardless of
speed - perhaps a slow person even more. But in practice it simply doesn't
work that way. Slow riders are generally inexperienced riders and they can't
hold steady aero positions for long periods of time and so they simply
destroy the effects of any aero equipment from their discomfort.


This doesn't match my experience at all. Slow riders (at least in TTs)
are most often that way because 1) they seem unaware of the magnitude
of improvement that aero eqpt. can afford, often opting for lightweight
components, and 2) they generate significantly less power.

That's why again and again best Cat 4 and 5 TT times are set by guys on
standard racing bikes.


Even if this were true, which it is not (at least in my experience), it
doesn't discredit aero eqpt. at all, unless you can put some numbers on
the power output being generated.

And I will tell you this: having lowered my effective frontal area to
0.23 square meters, I can avg. 25 mph for 20 km, which beats lots of
Cat. 4s and even 3s, even though I'm a lousy Cat. 5 in any mass start
race.

There's a point at which a guy starts getting good at
TTing and that's the time he should start thinking about aero equipment.
Before that it's just a waste of money.


I don't consider that 31:10 for 20 km made me 'good,' but that's the
point at which I saw an old Hooker, grabbed it, tricked it out mostly
in the way Andy describes (but with some custom touches as well --
home-made 32 cm-wide handlebars), and did what I never thought I could
do -- break a half an hour (29:56, to be precise) on an out-and-back 20
km course -- on only 237 W. This put me in a virtual tie with Chris
Mayhew, a bona fide Cat. 3 who can otherwise ride circles around me.
With some changes, I did 30:02 the next year on 229 W, and if all goes
well, I should be able to get to 29 flat, I believe.

Aero awareness can get you much more speed than light weight, but
unfortunately, it can't be as easily quantified as mass, and it isn't
measured in hundreds of units, i.e., "This [insert component] saves you
141 grams!" Call that 5 ounces, and it sounds much less impressive.

Charles Howe
"I have sworn eternal hostility to every influence of the metric system
over the mind of man."

  #118  
Old June 21st 06, 10:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A good time for 10km TT?

Bret wrote:
Simon Brooke wrote:

in message . com, Bret
') wrote:


Tom Kunich wrote:


As someone pointed out - the fastest TT ever was Greg LeMond using
aero bars. Maybe you'd like to explain to us the reason that total
wind tunnel tuning, total aero equipment and total dedication hasn't
been able to break that record again? After all, that was 17 years
ago. Are you telling us that aero hasn't improved immeasurably since
then?

Wow. It was the fastest TDF TT at the time, but Boardman has since
bested it. It was also wind aided and so useless for comparison
purposes. You need to find a better factoid to bolster your straight
from the gut assumptions. Do you know you have more nerve endings in
your gut than you have in your head?

I suppose CURT HARNETT has the fastest TT ever (flying 200m) if you
ignore paced and downhill TTs.


Errr. Sam Whittingham. But he was using aero equipment.



Right. I was one disclaimer short there. I should have said, "if you
ignore paced, downhill and wingnut TTs".



Even if you stick to Grand Tours, Rik Verbrugghe has gone faster in a
Giro prologue.


  #119  
Old June 22nd 06, 04:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default KOOKALICIOUS: A good time for 10km TT?

"ronaldo_jeremiah" wrote in message
ups.com...

Tom Kunich wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
There you go trying to dictate how people should spend their money
again...


Now let's get this straight Andrew, I'm not accusing you of being
mercenary.
I'm accusing you of being nothing more than biased.


A few days ago I thanked Sierraman for definitively demonstrating that
he, and not you, is the ultimate r.b.r. kook. And now here you are,
making a late charge after I, we, thought this was settled.


Well that really means a lot from someone to frightened to let anyone know
who he really is.


  #120  
Old June 23rd 06, 05:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A good time for 10km TT?


"Bret" wrote in message
ups.com...


I suppose CURT HARNETT has the fastest TT ever (flying 200m) if you
ignore paced and downhill TTs.


Errr. Sam Whittingham. But he was using aero equipment.


Right. I was one disclaimer short there. I should have said, "if you
ignore paced, downhill and wingnut TTs".


Nope. Just one disclaimer off. Harnett's record was not paced.


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trip Report: Cambridge, MA to Milwaukee, WI: 1968 Ron Wallenfang Rides 2 December 21st 05 05:54 AM
L.A. Confidential Excerpt 'Dis Guy Racing 3 October 10th 04 05:31 AM
Trip Report - Philadelphia - Ste. Anne de Beaupre, QUE and back Ron Wallenfang Rides 9 June 27th 04 05:35 AM
Tour of the Alps 2003 [email protected] Rides 2 September 15th 03 04:52 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.