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#111
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A good time for 10km TT?
in message . com, Bret
') wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: As someone pointed out - the fastest TT ever was Greg LeMond using aero bars. Maybe you'd like to explain to us the reason that total wind tunnel tuning, total aero equipment and total dedication hasn't been able to break that record again? After all, that was 17 years ago. Are you telling us that aero hasn't improved immeasurably since then? Wow. It was the fastest TDF TT at the time, but Boardman has since bested it. It was also wind aided and so useless for comparison purposes. You need to find a better factoid to bolster your straight from the gut assumptions. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? I suppose CURT HARNETT has the fastest TT ever (flying 200m) if you ignore paced and downhill TTs. Errr. Sam Whittingham. But he was using aero equipment. -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ ;; IE 3 is dead, but Netscape 4 still shambles about the earth, ;; wreaking a horrific vengeance upon the living ;; anonymous |
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#112
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A good time for 10km TT?
Tom Kunich wrote:
I'm trying to dictate how people will spend their money? Who is selling a book on speed? Who is making money off of software purported to make cyclists faster? Am I making a living writing about speed? Now let's get this straight Andrew, I'm not accusing you of being mercenary. I'm accusing you of being nothing more than biased. What does my advocacy of powermeter use have to do with whether or not aerodynamic equipment works regardless of a rider's skill/speed? There is obviously no logical connection, so even if I were making any significant money from the sale of CyclingPeaks and "Training and Racing with a Powermeter" - which I'm not - your accusation would be baseless. Thus, that you should make it merely serves to illustrate the weakness of your position on the topic at hand. Andy Coggan |
#113
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A good time for 10km TT?
Bret wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote: As someone pointed out - the fastest TT ever was Greg LeMond using aero bars. Maybe you'd like to explain to us the reason that total wind tunnel tuning, total aero equipment and total dedication hasn't been able to break that record again? After all, that was 17 years ago. Are you telling us that aero hasn't improved immeasurably since then? Wow. It was the fastest TDF TT at the time, but Boardman has since bested it. I thought Dave Z now held the record (set, not coincidentally, using extremely aerodynamic equipment)? Andy Coggan |
#114
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KOOKALICIOUS: A good time for 10km TT?
Tom Kunich wrote: wrote in message oups.com... There's a point at which a guy starts getting good at TTing and that's the time he should start thinking about aero equipment. Before that it's just a waste of money. There you go trying to dictate how people should spend their money again... As someone pointed out - the fastest TT ever was Greg LeMond using aero bars. Maybe you'd like to explain to us the reason that total wind tunnel tuning, total aero equipment and total dedication hasn't been able to break that record again? After all, that was 17 years ago. Are you telling us that aero hasn't improved immeasurably since then? If memory serves, Fignon wasn't even second in the final TT and someone else without aero stuff finished close enough to Greg to still be one of the fastest TT's ever even without aero bars. I'm trying to dictate how people will spend their money? Who is selling a book on speed? Who is making money off of software purported to make cyclists faster? Am I making a living writing about speed? Now let's get this straight Andrew, I'm not accusing you of being mercenary. I'm accusing you of being nothing more than biased. Tom - A few days ago I thanked Sierraman for definitively demonstrating that he, and not you, is the ultimate r.b.r. kook. And now here you are, making a late charge after I, we, thought this was settled. Tom, please - we need closure on this. Even if you really are that kooky, can you reign it in, at least for a few weeks? Then, when we have forgotten about Sierraman, you can unleash your full kookitude again. Thanks. -RJ |
#115
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A good time for 10km TT?
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#116
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A good time for 10km TT?
Simon Brooke wrote: in message . com, Bret ') wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: As someone pointed out - the fastest TT ever was Greg LeMond using aero bars. Maybe you'd like to explain to us the reason that total wind tunnel tuning, total aero equipment and total dedication hasn't been able to break that record again? After all, that was 17 years ago. Are you telling us that aero hasn't improved immeasurably since then? Wow. It was the fastest TDF TT at the time, but Boardman has since bested it. It was also wind aided and so useless for comparison purposes. You need to find a better factoid to bolster your straight from the gut assumptions. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? I suppose CURT HARNETT has the fastest TT ever (flying 200m) if you ignore paced and downhill TTs. Errr. Sam Whittingham. But he was using aero equipment. Right. I was one disclaimer short there. I should have said, "if you ignore paced, downhill and wingnut TTs". Bret |
#117
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A good time for 10km TT?
To put some numbers on this discussion:
Stage 21, 1989 TdF Versailles-Paris ITT 1. Greg LeMond 24.5 km in 26:57 (54.545 kph) Stage 1, 2005 TdF Fromentine-Noimoutier en l'Ile 1. Dave Zabriskie, 19 km in 20:51 (54.64 kph) But the important facts here are 1) the Versailes-Paris course had a significant elevation loss, and a tailwind was reported during LeMond's run, and 2) Zabriskie was able to accomplish this *precisely* because of his attention to aerodynamics, not his power output, which is the level at which otherwise performs. Something else: On the tablet aero stuff looks like it should help everyone regardless of speed - perhaps a slow person even more. But in practice it simply doesn't work that way. Slow riders are generally inexperienced riders and they can't hold steady aero positions for long periods of time and so they simply destroy the effects of any aero equipment from their discomfort. This doesn't match my experience at all. Slow riders (at least in TTs) are most often that way because 1) they seem unaware of the magnitude of improvement that aero eqpt. can afford, often opting for lightweight components, and 2) they generate significantly less power. That's why again and again best Cat 4 and 5 TT times are set by guys on standard racing bikes. Even if this were true, which it is not (at least in my experience), it doesn't discredit aero eqpt. at all, unless you can put some numbers on the power output being generated. And I will tell you this: having lowered my effective frontal area to 0.23 square meters, I can avg. 25 mph for 20 km, which beats lots of Cat. 4s and even 3s, even though I'm a lousy Cat. 5 in any mass start race. There's a point at which a guy starts getting good at TTing and that's the time he should start thinking about aero equipment. Before that it's just a waste of money. I don't consider that 31:10 for 20 km made me 'good,' but that's the point at which I saw an old Hooker, grabbed it, tricked it out mostly in the way Andy describes (but with some custom touches as well -- home-made 32 cm-wide handlebars), and did what I never thought I could do -- break a half an hour (29:56, to be precise) on an out-and-back 20 km course -- on only 237 W. This put me in a virtual tie with Chris Mayhew, a bona fide Cat. 3 who can otherwise ride circles around me. With some changes, I did 30:02 the next year on 229 W, and if all goes well, I should be able to get to 29 flat, I believe. Aero awareness can get you much more speed than light weight, but unfortunately, it can't be as easily quantified as mass, and it isn't measured in hundreds of units, i.e., "This [insert component] saves you 141 grams!" Call that 5 ounces, and it sounds much less impressive. Charles Howe "I have sworn eternal hostility to every influence of the metric system over the mind of man." |
#118
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A good time for 10km TT?
Bret wrote:
Simon Brooke wrote: in message . com, Bret ') wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: As someone pointed out - the fastest TT ever was Greg LeMond using aero bars. Maybe you'd like to explain to us the reason that total wind tunnel tuning, total aero equipment and total dedication hasn't been able to break that record again? After all, that was 17 years ago. Are you telling us that aero hasn't improved immeasurably since then? Wow. It was the fastest TDF TT at the time, but Boardman has since bested it. It was also wind aided and so useless for comparison purposes. You need to find a better factoid to bolster your straight from the gut assumptions. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? I suppose CURT HARNETT has the fastest TT ever (flying 200m) if you ignore paced and downhill TTs. Errr. Sam Whittingham. But he was using aero equipment. Right. I was one disclaimer short there. I should have said, "if you ignore paced, downhill and wingnut TTs". Even if you stick to Grand Tours, Rik Verbrugghe has gone faster in a Giro prologue. |
#119
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KOOKALICIOUS: A good time for 10km TT?
"ronaldo_jeremiah" wrote in message
ups.com... Tom Kunich wrote: wrote in message oups.com... There you go trying to dictate how people should spend their money again... Now let's get this straight Andrew, I'm not accusing you of being mercenary. I'm accusing you of being nothing more than biased. A few days ago I thanked Sierraman for definitively demonstrating that he, and not you, is the ultimate r.b.r. kook. And now here you are, making a late charge after I, we, thought this was settled. Well that really means a lot from someone to frightened to let anyone know who he really is. |
#120
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A good time for 10km TT?
"Bret" wrote in message ups.com... I suppose CURT HARNETT has the fastest TT ever (flying 200m) if you ignore paced and downhill TTs. Errr. Sam Whittingham. But he was using aero equipment. Right. I was one disclaimer short there. I should have said, "if you ignore paced, downhill and wingnut TTs". Nope. Just one disclaimer off. Harnett's record was not paced. |
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