Big Mig - honest, dishonest?

On May 25, 7:30 pm, "Sandy" wrote:


New rule, proposed long ago - you did nothing wrong? Cast the first stone.
[notes to rule] - check your memory really really closely, first.

Apply this straightforward rule and you get...a code of silence.
Especially when you have a group of people who need to stick together
to survive, even if they are competitors. It happens in all kinds of
relationships and comes down to normal human behaviour.

There is no easy solution to cheating in a system like professional
sport. Some athletes are always going to cheat. Either you allow
athletes to take whatever they want and sign a death disclaimer (this
penalises the athletes who want to race clean) and concentrate on
policing the rules on the road, or you have a 100 percent bulletproof
system that detects all doping, all the time.

The latter is practically impossible, while the former would annoy a
few people and lead to some deaths. It's not particularly nice.

In the good ol' days, the media had more respect for the omerta and
helped keep a lid on affairs. But it's changed, with cycling being one
of the first targets. I wonder if there's enough money and power to
keep things quiet about some of the bigger sports like football and
tennis?

I remember reading about Telekom's doping program about 10 years ago.
Riis has been pestered by journalists since then, because funnily
enough, they knew about it too. Finding out this sort of information
and getting it out there comes with the territory. It's now at the
stage where reporting on an actual race should be an attention-
grabbing headline, because it doesn't happen that often.

Jeff

benjo maso wrote:
"Bob Schwartz" wrote in message
t...
Dan Gregory wrote:
Bob Schwartz wrote:
Callistus Valerius wrote:
Dope free also, makes him one of the few legitimate winners.
Dumbass,

Salbutamol, 1994.
In which year Riis admits he was using Epo
Gewiss made a ton of progress that year. Just like Telekom would
in following years.

In 1994 I don't believe EPO was a banned substance yet. I'm not
sure when that came, 1996?


No, 1990

Benjo

Are you sure?

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons Planckaert was willing to admit
to winning the 1990 Paris-Roubaix while on EPO was that at the
time it was OK.

Bob Schwartz

"Bob Schwartz" wrote in message
t...
benjo maso wrote:
"Bob Schwartz" wrote in message
t...
Dan Gregory wrote:
Bob Schwartz wrote:
Callistus Valerius wrote:
Dope free also, makes him one of the few legitimate winners.
Dumbass,

Salbutamol, 1994.
In which year Riis admits he was using Epo
Gewiss made a ton of progress that year. Just like Telekom would
in following years.

In 1994 I don't believe EPO was a banned substance yet. I'm not
sure when that came, 1996?


No, 1990

Benjo

Are you sure?

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons Planckaert was willing to admit
to winning the 1990 Paris-Roubaix while on EPO was that at the
time it was OK.


Yes, I'm sure. And Eddy Planckaert said that he used Epo only in the last
year of his career, i.e. 1991.

Benjo

In article ,
"Sandy" wrote:

Dans le message de news:VsF5i.18$eO5.14@trndny08,
B. Lafferty a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
"RonSonic" wrote in message
...
On 25 May 2007 09:36:57 -0700, "
wrote:

I too will always think of him as being a dignified patron of the
peleton and-- rightyl or wrongly-- as a clean rider. Perhaps this
is naive but it is how I want to remember him.

Yes, this is naive! Big Mig was a doper; he was once described as
'EPO perfected'. I sure as hell hope no one still believes Pantani
was clean! If they take Riis' title, they should take Pantani's as
well. Should Ullrich admit he doped too that would leave...HOLY
**** BOBBY JULICH AS THE VIRTUAL TdF champion! Considering the
scandal that year and his meteoric crash, I'd Julich was clean. Oh
my god my head's going to explode...........

This is why the entire concept of rewriting results is so stupid. If
they take
out Riis, who do they replace him with? Someone who we somehow know
to be clean?

I wonder how you would feel if you raced clean and lost Olympic Gold
or the Tour to a doper. I'd want justice and the medal.

New rule, proposed long ago - you did nothing wrong? Cast the first stone.
[notes to rule] - check your memory really really closely, first.

Thanks for the chance to talk about misquotations. No,
you have not misquoted. Following is a quote that is
almost always misquoted.

Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged:
and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to
you again.

--
Michael Press

On May 25, 11:30 am, "Sandy" wrote:

[notes to rule] - check your memory really really closely, first.

http://www.fmsfonline.org/

I remember that I won the tour several times -- not even virtually.
Really!

Who can we say was really clean? Eki? Probably.

no way. I can't imagine anyone coming thru any eastern-bloc sports
program being 100% clean.

Julich? likely, too.

My guess would be he's not clean either.

On May 25, 12:17 pm, Donald Munro wrote:

Unfortunately this dumb circle jerk is probably going to result in more
power to dicks like Pound.

It never ceases to amaze me the degree to which people think that
granting power to someone, and then closing one's eyes and hoping for
the best could possibly solve social problems. But yet it is so
prevalant in so many circumstances.

"*They* will figure it out and everything will be a-ok. Don't worry,
be happy." -- bf, 1759

On May 25, 11:06 am, "
wrote:
On May 25, 1:58 pm, "B. Lafferty"
wrote:





"RonSonic" wrote in message

.. .

On 25 May 2007 09:36:57 -0700, "
wrote:

I too will always think of him as being a dignified patron of the
peleton and-- rightyl or wrongly-- as a clean rider. Perhaps this is
naive but it is how I want to remember him.

Yes, this is naive! Big Mig was a doper; he was once described as
'EPO perfected'. I sure as hell hope no one still believes Pantani
was clean! If they take Riis' title, they should take Pantani's as
well. Should Ullrich admit he doped too that would leave...HOLY ****
BOBBY JULICH AS THE VIRTUAL TdF champion! Considering the scandal
that year and his meteoric crash, I'd Julich was clean. Oh my god my
head's going to explode...........

This is why the entire concept of rewriting results is so stupid. If they
take
out Riis, who do they replace him with? Someone who we somehow know to be
clean?

I wonder how you would feel if you raced clean and lost Olympic Gold or the
Tour to a doper. I'd want justice and the medal.

Who can we say was really clean? Eki? Probably. Julich? likely,
too.




Dumbass -


That is such a bunch of wishful BS.

Julich's team that year, Cofidis, was one of the few EPO teams to
avoid getting their stash taken away when Voet got busted. They
finished 3 riders in the top 7. Julich (3rd), Cristophe Rinero (4th),
Roland Meir (7th).

It was a career year for all three of them. After that the French
teams were subject to the extreme anti-doping laws in that nation and
those guys all fell off the face of the earth resultswise.

Julich=dirty (IMHO)


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

In article . com,
" wrote:

On May 25, 1:58 pm, "B. Lafferty"
wrote:
"RonSonic" wrote in message

...



On 25 May 2007 09:36:57 -0700, "
wrote:

I too will always think of him as being a dignified patron of the
peleton and-- rightyl or wrongly-- as a clean rider. Perhaps this is
naive but it is how I want to remember him.

Yes, this is naive! Big Mig was a doper; he was once described as
'EPO perfected'. I sure as hell hope no one still believes Pantani
was clean! If they take Riis' title, they should take Pantani's as
well. Should Ullrich admit he doped too that would leave...HOLY ****
BOBBY JULICH AS THE VIRTUAL TdF champion! Considering the scandal
that year and his meteoric crash, I'd Julich was clean. Oh my god my
head's going to explode...........

This is why the entire concept of rewriting results is so stupid. If they
take
out Riis, who do they replace him with? Someone who we somehow know to be
clean?

I wonder how you would feel if you raced clean and lost Olympic Gold or the
Tour to a doper. I'd want justice and the medal.

Who can we say was really clean? Eki? Probably. Julich? likely,
too. Hamilton? I think only he and his only mentor still believe.

I think Tugboat believed him to the day he died.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article VsF5i.18$eO5.14@trndny08,
"B. Lafferty" wrote:

"RonSonic" wrote in message
...
On 25 May 2007 09:36:57 -0700, "
wrote:

I too will always think of him as being a dignified patron of the
peleton and-- rightyl or wrongly-- as a clean rider. Perhaps this is
naive but it is how I want to remember him.

Yes, this is naive! Big Mig was a doper; he was once described as
'EPO perfected'. I sure as hell hope no one still believes Pantani
was clean! If they take Riis' title, they should take Pantani's as
well. Should Ullrich admit he doped too that would leave...HOLY ****
BOBBY JULICH AS THE VIRTUAL TdF champion! Considering the scandal
that year and his meteoric crash, I'd Julich was clean. Oh my god my
head's going to explode...........

This is why the entire concept of rewriting results is so stupid. If they
take
out Riis, who do they replace him with? Someone who we somehow know to be
clean?

I wonder how you would feel if you raced clean and lost Olympic Gold or the
Tour to a doper. I'd want justice and the medal.

And it pains me to admit it, but Brian's not only right, he's probably
been right about doping prevalence more often than most people in this
group.

About the worst thing you can say about WADA-world is that it's a
McCarthyite witch hunt. Overzealous, willing to transgress the
principles it claims to get to its targets. And like McCarthy, the
witches it's hunting are mostly real.

I can't remember who keeps quoting "it's possible to frame a guilty
man," but all I think of a lot of the time is a quote by Kissinger:
can't they both lose?

My saving grace with the whole "justice and the medal" approach is that,
however proper it would be, moving everyone up a rung is probably
better-than-even odds of just promoting a different doper in a large
number of these cases.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos