Driver admits killing Marine cyclist

Wayne Pein wrote:

Huh? Did blacks in South Africa exist because they were shoved in
Bantustans?

i don't feel like my rights are being

violated or i'm being banned from any street because of a bike lane.


But of course they are. You just don't "feel" they are.

how are they being violated? if someone ever tells me i (or any cyclist)
can *only* ride in a street if it has a bike lane, then i will complain
that my rights are being violated, don't you worry.

i wonder if maybe you have had a bad bike lane experience of some sort,
sorry about that. one of the reasons i quit skating was because i got
tired of cyclists telling me that i "don't belong here", etc. so i
empathize.

h

Wayne Pein wrote:

h squared wrote:

if they just want to paint a bike lane on a street that's already wide
enough for it, that's fine with me too, at least they're showing that
they're aware that cyclists exist.



Huh? Did blacks in South Africa exist because they were shoved in
Bantustans?


i just realized that part of what i meant by "at least they showing
they're aware that cyclists exist" wasn't coming thru very well:

about a month ago, i had to detour from a planned route because of road
construction. i didn't know the area, and it's crisscrossed with
freeways so there aren't a lot of thru streets. so i took a street that
would get me to a familiar area. however, little did i know that
suddenly the two right lanes would become "right turn only" lanes and i
really needed to go straight. i wanted to cut across two lanes of
traffic to get to the thru lane, but it's a major arterial and there
wasn't a break in the traffic. i wanted to stop by the side of the road
and wait for a break, but there was no side of the road- no shoulder and
no sidewalk, just a concrete barrier, so i couldn't just stop in the
middle of the road with cars coming at me, so i made the turn and ended
up going the opposite way from what i wanted into this crappy commercial
area that took me about half an hour to ride 5 miles out of.

when i got home i bitched and bitched about that road, and my boyfriend
who grew up in that area said, "the people who designed that road never
imagined that anyone would ever ride a bike down it."

heather

h squared wrote:
Wayne Pein wrote:

Huh? Did blacks in South Africa exist because they were shoved in
Bantustans?

i don't feel like my rights are being

violated or i'm being banned from any street because of a bike lane.



But of course they are. You just don't "feel" they are.


how are they being violated? if someone ever tells me i (or any cyclist)
can *only* ride in a street if it has a bike lane, then i will complain
that my rights are being violated, don't you worry.

Try riding to the left of the strip just because. Notice the harassment.
Note that many/most places that have bike lanes also have mandatory bike
lane laws.




i wonder if maybe you have had a bad bike lane experience of some sort,
sorry about that. one of the reasons i quit skating was because i got
tired of cyclists telling me that i "don't belong here", etc. so i
empathize.

h


Yes, I've had many bad bike lane experiences. Like the ubiquitous
debris. Like the substandard width (even for bike lanes, which by
definition are substandard lanes). Like the increased hazard from cross
traffic.

Bike Lanes and wide lanes are there to allow motorists to pass easier.
Placing the restrictive bike lane stipe introduces problems to the wide
lane.

Wayne

h squared wrote:

Wayne Pein wrote:

h squared wrote:


if they just want to paint a bike lane on a street that's already
wide enough for it, that's fine with me too, at least they're showing
that they're aware that cyclists exist.




Huh? Did blacks in South Africa exist because they were shoved in
Bantustans?



i just realized that part of what i meant by "at least they showing
they're aware that cyclists exist" wasn't coming thru very well:

about a month ago, i had to detour from a planned route because of road
construction. i didn't know the area, and it's crisscrossed with
freeways so there aren't a lot of thru streets. so i took a street that
would get me to a familiar area. however, little did i know that
suddenly the two right lanes would become "right turn only" lanes and i
really needed to go straight. i wanted to cut across two lanes of
traffic to get to the thru lane, but it's a major arterial and there
wasn't a break in the traffic. i wanted to stop by the side of the road
and wait for a break, but there was no side of the road- no shoulder and
no sidewalk, just a concrete barrier, so i couldn't just stop in the
middle of the road with cars coming at me, so i made the turn and ended
up going the opposite way from what i wanted into this crappy commercial
area that took me about half an hour to ride 5 miles out of.

when i got home i bitched and bitched about that road, and my boyfriend
who grew up in that area said, "the people who designed that road never
imagined that anyone would ever ride a bike down it."

heather



Freeway design roads are reasonable locales for bike lanes. The
expectation of very high speed, lack of cross traffic, and lack of
turning movements makes channelizing bicycle users defensible.

Other normal roads should not have them and are better served with
normal or wide lanes.

Wayne

anonymous.u_lick.org wrote:


Wayne Pein wrote:

Huh? Did blacks in South Africa exist because they were shoved in
Bantustans?


Dumbass,

Comparing bike lanes to Bantustans suggests that you
are getting a little bit overheated. The amount of
moral reprehensibility in apartheid vs. treatment of
cyclists isn't very comparable.

You are basing your assessment on scale. They are comparable in that
both populations are displaced.






i don't feel like my rights are being

violated or i'm being banned from any street because of a bike lane.

But of course they are. You just don't "feel" they are.


You seized on the part you can argue with and
ignored the part where Heather said "if someone wants to
improve a road by widening it and painting a bike lane."
Anti-bike lane rhetoric often misses the "improving and
widening" part.

No, I didn't miss it. When I ride my bike on a narrow road, I've got x
number of feet of width to choose my lateral position. If motorists are
delayed behind me, tough ****. That's not my problem. If I was driving a
front loader would I give a rat's ass about delaying motorists? Both me
and my wife are sometimes delayed behind slow moving front loaders while
on our bikes. We have to stop for busses. Congestion. Damn, traffic lights!

Now add a 4-5 foot bike lane. Whoo hoo! Now my space has been halved and
I get the debris that inevitably results. Motorists get to pass faster.
There is greater risk of being obscured by such passing motorists and
being whacked by someone turning.


You might be right that painting bike
lane stripes promotes the idea in the general population
that bicyclists should be confined inside the stripes.

You get the point. Here there's a 2-lane road with 2 ft shoulders that
were recently added. Motorists now think I'm supposed to be on the
shoulder. Bike lanes are merely wider shoulders intended for one class
of vehicle operator. Feeling privledged yet?





But lots of people make the association of bike lanes
and wide roads (since you can't paint a bike lane on
a substandard width road), vs narrow roads which have
no bike lanes. Some of which suck to ride on, even if
you are aggressive and take the lane.

They suck because motorists can be assholes. So train motorists to be
respectful of others. Don't push bicyclists out of their way and give
them what they want. Or add another real lane, not a bike lane.

Wayne

Wayne Pein wrote:


Try riding to the left of the strip just because. Notice the harassment.
Note that many/most places that have bike lanes also have mandatory bike
lane laws.

i've never been harassed while riding a bike, just treated callously by
passing drivers who think they have to pass NOW whether there's room or
not. i think we may be experiencing regional differences. (or else i'm
just so pitiful looking riding my bike that i inspire kindness or
something...)

Yes, I've had many bad bike lane experiences. Like the ubiquitous
debris. Like the substandard width (even for bike lanes, which by
definition are substandard lanes). Like the increased hazard from cross
traffic.

if you feel like you have to stay in a lane that's filled with debris
and is too narrow, that's not right. maybe you could ask those "in
charge" what the law is when a bike lane isn't safe enough for a rider?
in seattle, pedestrians have the right of way in the street if the
sidewalk is blocked or unsafe to use, they aren't required to stay on it
at all times, for example.

anyhow, i've always viewed bike lanes as a lane where cars aren't
allowed to be, no matter what (except at right turns), not as a spot
where bikes *have* to stay. for you it's a restriction, for me it's a
privilege. i don't know where you live, but i hope i'm never moving there

heather

Wayne Pein wrote:
anonymous.u_lick.org wrote:

Screwing with my email address is childish. It's a real
email address (if you want me to see the email faster, leave
out the computer name) and you can find my name with Google
if you care.

You might be right that painting bike
lane stripes promotes the idea in the general population
that bicyclists should be confined inside the stripes.

You get the point. Here there's a 2-lane road with 2 ft shoulders that
were recently added. Motorists now think I'm supposed to be on the
shoulder. Bike lanes are merely wider shoulders intended for one class
of vehicle operator. Feeling privledged yet?

Don't patronize. I know the argument because I've read
it many times on Usenet and other places. I even agree with
it to a limited extent. But, from an advocacy point of view,
you did a lousy job of explaining it. I only knew your
argument because I'm reading your mind; your original post
completely failed to explain to Heather (or anyone who isn't
a bike-advocacy geek) the principles behind opposing bike lanes.

Some of which suck to ride on, even if
you are aggressive and take the lane.

They suck because motorists can be assholes. So train motorists to be
respectful of others. Don't push bicyclists out of their way and give
them what they want. Or add another real lane, not a bike lane.

This only goes so far. People who are comfortable riding
bikes on the street (as opposed to the bike path crowd)
generally can ride comfortably on the average city street
with or without a bike lane, and without any extra width to
the lane. But when you get to busy shoulderless arterials
where the traffic moves 40-50 mph, rhetoric about taking the
whole lane and training motorists to wait is empty. This is
when the riders start whining for a bike lane, and you start
preaching at them.

On my commute home, I have to ride about 150 meters up a hill
on an arterial with 3 car lanes each direction, no extra width,
people driving way too fast (it is a road with sidewalks,
driveways etc). I usually ride outside rush hour and take the
lane, and take the occasional ass-clenching moment as a bus or
truck decelerates from 50 to 15 mph behind me. My co-worker,
who is less fit and rides at rush hour, rides up on the sidewalk
with the driveways and broken glass. Honestly I can't blame
him. If all you have to say to him is to sneer that bike lanes
are ghettos, you are not going to be doing effective cycling
advocacy.

Sounds like the Sierra Club telling MB riders that trails were meant
only for hikers and horses.

wrote:

and take the occasional ass-clenching moment as a bus or
truck decelerates from 50 to 15 mph behind me.


goddamn it, now i'm going to have random moments of worry about you. i
think i liked it better when i thought of you more as my dad (back when
i thought you were 55) instead of worrying like an irrational mother
about your bike ride home.

heather (apparently has parent "issues")

wrote:

Sounds like the Sierra Club telling MB riders that trails were meant
only for hikers and horses.


those experiences depressed me because i would be so happy to have
someone to say "hi" too when they would come riding past, and instead i
would end up feeling like i was ruining their day with my presence. most
cyclists were friendly, but i fixate more on the negative crap,
unfortunately. now i ride my bike, with much less skill and barely
faster than i skated, but nobody can say a word about it, so i can smile
and say "hi" all i like without getting my feelings hurt.

heather