entry level lights to see by

Op 31-12-2012 18:17, sms schreef:
On 12/31/2012 7:31 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

snip

I don't need to carry an extra light since my battery lights light up
a two lane road to beyond the shoulders and they are bright enough for
me to ride at 50+ kms/hr. I can easily remove the light from the mount
and use it with a head band mount in order to see to do any needed
repair as I did late one very dark moonless night about 10 kms from
town when I changed a punctured tube. Plus with my very good battery
lights I do not have to worry about carrying and/or forgetting a
smaller light.

A coin cell flashlight isn't going to provide enough light even for
repairs. The best option for a small size repair flashlight is one
that's powered by a single CR123A battery, i.e.
http://dx.com/p/romisen-cree-rc-n3-3-mode-led-flashlight-1xcr123a-2xaa-9070.


You do point out a major issue and that's outrunning your lights. Dynamo
lights were never intended for high speed commuting like you often see
in the U.S.. It's very different than the slow speed commuting you see
in places like the Netherlands or in China. The other issue that you
mention that's very important is being able to light up not just the
patch of road directly in front of you, but off to the shoulders as well.

The brightest light I have is a dynamo powered light. If you want lights
for high speed commuting you can go the dynamo route. It doesn't get
better than this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/101076538433373858645/DynohubLightSystem?authkey=Gv1sRgCP6Iu6qy_tbU9gE#5 657107301581393666

This light is better than all the battery powered lights I use(d).

For slow speed commuting on well lit streets you can get away with
cheaper front lights.


Lou

On 12/30/2012 6:46 PM, Frank White wrote:
For $15 you can get a Rayovac Indestructible that will beat both PB and PDW in both output and runtime. The rear switch is cheap and gimpy, but otherwise these lights are pretty damn tough.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...1#.UODeqO-_Nbk

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ZE-TEST-ADDED*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIEo8USPokg

For $37 dollars you can get a Fenix E25. This is a tactical level light at a crap light price and will actually outthrow and outrun tactical lights that cost twice as much.

http://www.fenixlight.com/viewproduct.asp?id=172

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=203631780&storeId=10051&l angId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=203631780&ci_kw={keyword} &kwd={keyword}&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-203631780&ci_gpa=pla#.UODenO-_Nbk




Tactical light? So where's the Pikatinny mount?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Dec 31, 7:01 am, SMS wrote:
On 12/29/2012 12:40 AM, Dan O wrote:

snip

Well, getting long for initial impressions. But anyway in a world
where the next class of bike headlights seems to jump in price about
3x, these two ~cheap little lights together - at less than a hundred
bucks total - produce a lot of light - or ~adequate light for longer
runtime and a variety of modes separately or combined.

I do like that you included "to see by" in your subject line.

I was at Interbike in September and since I'm interested in lighting I
talked to a lot of the lighting companies. It seems like "to see by" LED
lights are a market segment where a lot of companies think they are
going to to make a killing. They don't understand that the market for
$150+ bicycle lights is pretty small. Even the market for $40 bicycle
lights isn't big enough to support all the manufacturers.

A couple of companies appear to be interested in the entry level market.
Magicshine, often deprecated because they sell a lot of volume through
DealExtreme, was at the show and they are making a play to sell through
the LBS. I don't know how this will work out for them. The LBS might not
be interested in selling $85 Magicshine lights, even for $125, versus
$259 Dinotte lights which probably have better margins. It's also
possible that entry level stops at $40 and that the customer willing to
spend more than that is just as willing to spend $259 as they are to
spend $85, or they may be willing to spend even more and buy a new wheel
with a dynamo along with a high-end dynamo light. Then you have the
customers that thing $20 for front and rear lights from Walmart is
already too expensive.

1. Run time is not a huge concern. People are so used to charging stuff
every night that they don't care about charging one more thing. So huge
batter packs with very long run times aren't important. A run time long
enough for a couple of commutes per charge is sufficient for front lights..

2. Consumer resistance to proprietary Li-Ion batteries. Despite the
major technical advantages to Li-Ion versus NiMH, consumers don't like
the expense, the proprietary chargers, and the longevity of Li-Ion
battery packs. They've gotten used to Li-Ion batteries wearing out and
needing replacement on their phones, iPods, cameras, and laptops. They
also want to be able to carry or buy spare batteries in a pinch. So
despite the lower energy density, AA batteries are preferred by most
consumers. You used to see something similar in the digital camera
market though now there are very very few digital cameras powered by AA
batteries.


That's how it is for me. I get about two round trips out of a pair of
charged AA NiMH's, and the charger is sitting by the garage door in
regular use for a variety of household items (anyone else have a bunch
of Nintendo WII remote controls?) with charged cells in a tray on one
side and to-be-charged in a tray on the other.

3. A front strobe is an absolute necessity. Almost no one will buy a
front light without a daytime strobe. It's the equivalent of DRLs for cars.


I really like being able to dynamically activate an attention-getting
change in presentation when entering situations that call for it, and
yeah - the very low power consumption of LED's in flashing mode makes
them worth running always on in city traffic.

4. External battery packs are not desirable. A lot of riders don't like
the extra pieces, the size, or the hassle. Since often the lights can't
be left on the bicycle while parked, they want something more portable.
So whether it's a flashlight or purpose built-bicycle light, the
batteries should be with the light, not connected by a cable to a
battery pack. What _would_ be desirable is the cell phone model of
charging the batteries without removing them from the device.
Unfortunately this means putting connector holes into the body of the
light which would affect the weatherproofing. You can already buy decent
Li-Ion flashlights that have an internal charger and a charging port
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004VPDTOO.


That would be a nice feature - like plugging in the electric car for
the next day's commute.

5. Dynamo lights will be used only when the dynamo hub wheel was sold
with the bicycle. So a few Joe Breeze and REI models will be the
majority of dynamo lights. No one wants a tire driven dynamo. A few hard
core commuters might add a dynamo wheel to their existing bicycles but
not enough to support more than a specialty retailer like Peter White
who is not giving up a large part of his margins to QBP or J&B. Yeah,
there will be a few very special shops like Yellow Jersey and Harris
that carry these products, but it's a very niche market.


I'm definitely right in PW's narrow target demographic - except for
the cash flow / budget.

6. The lighting companies see LED flashlights as their competition.
There were numerous products at the show for mounting AA or C battery
flashlights to handlebars, including the ubiquitous TwoFish Cyclopblock�
http://www.lighthound.com/Twofish-Cyclopblock-Flashlight-Bicycle-Moun....

Whatever gets decent lighting on more bikes (isn't that Frank's pet
beef: Drunken wrong way no lights etc.?) also enables more bikes on
the road any time of night or day (one less excuse to take the car).

On 12/31/2012 9:42 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

The brightest light I have is a dynamo powered light.

That's too bad. I can advise you on where to buy better lights.

On 12/31/2012 9:41 AM, Dan O wrote:

A little tiny dedicated worklight is apt to go dead right when you
need it most (a bike headlight will be maintained charged), the coin
cell LED lights I've ever seen all require to hold the switch down to
activate, and I've never used one beyond trying it to see if it works
and then I don't know where any of them went after that [I have no use
for them]. Heck, my Kryptonite U-lock key has a little flashlight
built in).

That's why a CR123A powered flashlight would be a good companion light
to a dynamo light. The CR123A battery has a very long shelf life yet the
energy density is very high. It can even be used as a primary bicycle
light if there are problems with the dynamo light. Dynamo lights with
all the wires running around the bike are prone to occasional problems,
though at least with LED dynamo lights the biggest problem, burned out
bulbs, has disappeared for the most part.

On Dec 31, 10:31*am, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:10:50 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 30, 8:50*pm, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

On Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:49:26 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Dec 30, 1:04*pm, sms wrote:

Of course the other issue with a dynamo light is that you can't remove

it and use it as a light to do repairs so you still need to carry along

a battery powered light anyway.

I've got a coin-cell LED keychain light in my handlebar bag, and

another that's always in my pocket, should I need them. *However, so

far I've never had to fix anything at night when I couldn't find a

street lamp nearby.

- Frank Krygowski

No too many street lights along this area's rail trails or county roads.

Cheers

Then carry a coin cell LED light. *Maybe $3, negligible weight.

- Frank Krygowski

I don't need to carry an extra light since my battery lights light up a two lane road to beyond the shoulders and they are bright enough for me to ride at 50+ kms/hr. I can easily remove the light from the mount and use it with a head band mount in order to see to do any needed repair as I did late one very dark moonless night about 10 kms from town when I changed a punctured tube. Plus with my very good battery lights I do not have to worry about carrying and/or forgetting a smaller light.

That's fine, Sir. I don't worry about carrying a keychain light
either; it's just there in my handlebar bag. Since I use generator
lights, I also don't worry about charging or replacing batteries, nor
about battery run times. My bike lights are like my car's lights;
they're just there, and they just work.

I mentioned keychain lights only as the ultra-simple solution to the
overstated "how do I fix a flat with a generator light" problem.
(Although, come to think of it, half my generator lights have
standlights anyway.) Advantages, disadvantages, etc. Ride what you
like.

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 31, 12:17*pm, sms , our font of
misinformation, wrote:


A coin cell flashlight isn't going to provide enough light even for
repairs.

Really? Sound like you haven't tried one.

You do point out a major issue and that's outrunning your lights. Dynamo
lights were never intended for high speed commuting like you often see
in the U.S.. It's very different than the slow speed commuting you see
in places like the Netherlands or in China.

And yet competitors commonly use them to ride the 1200 km round trip
competition from Paris to Brest and back, every four years. What do
they know that SMS does not?

The other issue that you
mention that's very important is being able to light up not just the
patch of road directly in front of you, but off to the shoulders as well.

Says the man who advocates a spot beam instead of optics designed for
the road, as with all other road vehicles. Again, he has apparently
never tried a bike headlight designed to German standards.

There's a peak power to dynamos regardless of the speed, and until the
advent of LED lights you'd burn out the bulb unless you had some sort of
voltage regulator, which of course kept the light output at a fixed
limit.

All this is discussing a problem which was solved by about 1980.

With LED lamps things have improved somewhat since as long as the
LED lamp has sufficient thermal dissipation you can run it at higher
voltages without incident.

If SMS would ever try a bike headlight properly designed to German
road standards, he would be far more informed.

However, as with the hub generators that he's finally tried, he'll
probably still try to save face by finding some imaginary shortcoming.

I'm not saying people shouldn't use battery lights, if that's what
they want. But people really should be up to date and honest in their
technical statements.

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 31, 12:41*pm, Dan O wrote:

A little tiny dedicated worklight is apt to go dead right when you
need it most (a bike headlight will be maintained charged), the coin
cell LED lights I've ever seen all require to hold the switch down to
activate, and I've never used one beyond trying it to see if it works
and then I don't know where any of them went after that [I have no use
for them]. *Heck, my Kryptonite U-lock key has a little flashlight
built in).

I bought my first one of these in about 2001, from an outdoor store as
I was on day one of a week-long bike tour to visit my daughter at her
college. They had one model that was on only when you squeezed it,
another with a stay-on switch. I paid an extra $1 for the latter.

I used it for reading in the tent at night, finding my campsite after
trips to campground showers & rest rooms, etc. The battery lasted not
only through that trip, but probably a year beyond, although most of
that time it just sat in my pocket.

As with a mini-Leatherman, I find it worth carrying all the time.
I've recently used it to read notes on a breaker box, look at a map at
night, etc.

The only problem has been occasionally forgetting to take one out of
my pocket before the pants get laundered. Sometimes they survive,
sometimes they don't.

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 31, 1:17*pm, sms wrote:

That's why a CR123A powered flashlight would be a good companion light
to a dynamo light. The CR123A battery has a very long shelf life yet the
energy density is very high. It can even be used as a primary bicycle
light if there are problems with the dynamo light. Dynamo lights with
all the wires running around the bike are prone to occasional problems,
though at least with LED dynamo lights the biggest problem, burned out
bulbs, has disappeared for the most part.

For many years, I led several night rides per year for our bike club.
About four of us used generator lights. None ever had a problem.
OTOH, it was actually rare to complete a ride without some battery
light failing - everything from "Darn, this battery lasted way longer
last time I recharged it" to "I was sure these disposable batteries
were new" to "Wait! My headlight came apart when I hit that pothole!"
to "Aaugh! My flashlight slipped into my spokes! I think I broke my
rib!"

Snagging a wire is possible, I suppose, just as it is with cyclometer
wires. Maybe someday it will happen to me. Maybe. Someday.

The only frustrating problem I recall with my generator systems was on
my commuting bike back in its halogen headlight days. The light would
flicker off for a fraction of a second or so from time to time, when I
was on a rough road. I kept looking for, and not finding, a bad
connection in the system.

Finally I found it. The headlamp's brass contact for the bulb's
center terminal had worn the bulb's solder contact flat, and was
barely contacting it. Obviously, the bulb was far from new. I flexed
the headlamp's contact outward a bit, and added another drop of solder
to the headlamp for good measure. No further problems.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, December 30, 2012 5:06:58 PM UTC-6, sms wrote:
On 12/30/2012 2:33 PM, James wrote:

On 31/12/12 09:13, SMS wrote:

On 12/30/2012 1:28 PM, James wrote:



I'd rather the electronics were potted or have a conformal coating, and

the switch a sealed unit in itself. Wet batteries is of little concern.