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Seen this? Why Derek Chauvin may get off his murder charge.



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 4th 20, 10:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,949
Default Seen this? Why Derek Chauvin may get off his murder charge.

On Saturday, July 4, 2020 at 12:50:06 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/4/2020 1:44 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, July 3, 2020 at 11:20:27 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/3/2020 4:36 PM, 2wheelfan wrote:
On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 12:13:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:

"Cops are highly unlikely to lie under oath."

That statement just kills what little credibility you have. Take it from someone who cross-examined cops many times during the better parts of two decades. Cops are like people: a goodly number of them will lie. And they know that if they lie under oath and get caught at it, the most that will happen to them is a good scolding.

I always told my kids to be very careful around cops not to trigger them. In my estimation as an old man who has had many experiences with police and police departments, a police force is a magnet for psychopaths and sociopaths, I'm sad to say.

That said, the reason I suggest that a Minneapolis jury will not convict is that there is much more beyond our ken, more we did not see; AND juries are very reluctant to convict cops of crimes of excessive force in the line of duty. Jurors tend to identify with cops and trust their testimony; and that includes middle-aged black jurors, who will call the cops at the drop of a hat if they feel endangered.

On this latter point I just saw the statistics. Do a little googling and you can find them too.

What I saw on the TV and online videos, however, was very disturbing. I don't agree with the way those 4 cops handled that bust.



No disagreements with your comments but I saw a gruesome 2d
degree. Charging 1st is going to be a long climb for the
State's Attorney with low likelihood of success.


The boss lawyer in this case is Keith Ellison. Need I explain why he'll be more interested in the circus he can stoke up than the eventual verdict? I'd go as far as to say that Ellison's conduct of this case is already suspect, and that he might not be all that downcast if the four cops walk, with the attendant further social disturbances. His arty will thank him.

Andre Jute
When I was a kid, one didn't need to be such a cynic


Maybe in Ireland but in our US legal system the elected
Hennepin County District Attorney decides whether to
prosecute and which charges:
https://www.hennepinattorney.org/hcao-highlights

The Minnesota Attorney General can involve himself (I
think-? pending Jay's comments) if there are
ethical/official misconduct or constitutional issues but
otherwise not.

One might suggest that a ridiculous overcharge will play
very well in the press until November, while an acquittal
would be after Mr Freeman's re election, i.e., meaningless
to him. (I'm sometimes called cynical. We'll see.)


I don't know who has control over charging decisions above the DAs in Minnesota. In Oregon, the AG can swoop in when instructed by the Governor. https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/180.070 The FBI/DOJ can get involved in federal offenses. I don't do criminal work, but I don't recall the AG bringing an individual prosecution -- as opposed to a wide-scale prosecution like racketeering. The AG investigated the Bagwan, but I think the prosecution was federal. I know the deputy AG who lead the charge, Bill Gary, and I should ask him.

Fun fact, my best bicycling buddy's brother is the Minneapolis City Attorney. I am told that Minneapolis' tear gas use has been a small fraction of Portland's. It's a point of pride for the City that they have gotten the place calmed down -- or so I'm told.

-- Jay Beattie
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  #12  
Old July 4th 20, 11:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,027
Default Seen this? Why Derek Chauvin may get off his murder charge.

On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 14:50:00 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 7/4/2020 1:44 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, July 3, 2020 at 11:20:27 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/3/2020 4:36 PM, 2wheelfan wrote:
On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 12:13:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:

"Cops are highly unlikely to lie under oath."

That statement just kills what little credibility you have. Take it from someone who cross-examined cops many times during the better parts of two decades. Cops are like people: a goodly number of them will lie. And they know that if they lie under oath and get caught at it, the most that will happen to them is a good scolding.

I always told my kids to be very careful around cops not to trigger them. In my estimation as an old man who has had many experiences with police and police departments, a police force is a magnet for psychopaths and sociopaths, I'm sad to say.

That said, the reason I suggest that a Minneapolis jury will not convict is that there is much more beyond our ken, more we did not see; AND juries are very reluctant to convict cops of crimes of excessive force in the line of duty. Jurors tend to identify with cops and trust their testimony; and that includes middle-aged black jurors, who will call the cops at the drop of a hat if they feel endangered.

On this latter point I just saw the statistics. Do a little googling and you can find them too.

What I saw on the TV and online videos, however, was very disturbing. I don't agree with the way those 4 cops handled that bust.



No disagreements with your comments but I saw a gruesome 2d
degree. Charging 1st is going to be a long climb for the
State's Attorney with low likelihood of success.


The boss lawyer in this case is Keith Ellison. Need I explain why he'll be more interested in the circus he can stoke up than the eventual verdict? I'd go as far as to say that Ellison's conduct of this case is already suspect, and that he might not be all that downcast if the four cops walk, with the attendant further social disturbances. His arty will thank him.

Andre Jute
When I was a kid, one didn't need to be such a cynic


Maybe in Ireland but in our US legal system the elected
Hennepin County District Attorney decides whether to
prosecute and which charges:
https://www.hennepinattorney.org/hcao-highlights

The Minnesota Attorney General can involve himself (I
think-? pending Jay's comments) if there are
ethical/official misconduct or constitutional issues but
otherwise not.

One might suggest that a ridiculous overcharge will play
very well in the press until November, while an acquittal
would be after Mr Freeman's re election, i.e., meaningless
to him. (I'm sometimes called cynical. We'll see.)


Don't you have a Grand Jury system in your state? My younger brother
was driving a car that hit a electric post which then fell down on the
car and killed his girlfriend and it was referred to a Grand Jury to
decide whether there was a criminal case to be answered or not.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #13  
Old July 5th 20, 05:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,909
Default Seen this? Why Derek Chauvin may get off his murder charge.

On Saturday, July 4, 2020 at 8:50:06 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/4/2020 1:44 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, July 3, 2020 at 11:20:27 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/3/2020 4:36 PM, 2wheelfan wrote:
On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 12:13:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:

"Cops are highly unlikely to lie under oath."

That statement just kills what little credibility you have. Take it from someone who cross-examined cops many times during the better parts of two decades. Cops are like people: a goodly number of them will lie. And they know that if they lie under oath and get caught at it, the most that will happen to them is a good scolding.

I always told my kids to be very careful around cops not to trigger them. In my estimation as an old man who has had many experiences with police and police departments, a police force is a magnet for psychopaths and sociopaths, I'm sad to say.

That said, the reason I suggest that a Minneapolis jury will not convict is that there is much more beyond our ken, more we did not see; AND juries are very reluctant to convict cops of crimes of excessive force in the line of duty. Jurors tend to identify with cops and trust their testimony; and that includes middle-aged black jurors, who will call the cops at the drop of a hat if they feel endangered.

On this latter point I just saw the statistics. Do a little googling and you can find them too.

What I saw on the TV and online videos, however, was very disturbing. I don't agree with the way those 4 cops handled that bust.



No disagreements with your comments but I saw a gruesome 2d
degree. Charging 1st is going to be a long climb for the
State's Attorney with low likelihood of success.


The boss lawyer in this case is Keith Ellison. Need I explain why he'll be more interested in the circus he can stoke up than the eventual verdict? I'd go as far as to say that Ellison's conduct of this case is already suspect, and that he might not be all that downcast if the four cops walk, with the attendant further social disturbances. His arty will thank him.

Andre Jute
When I was a kid, one didn't need to be such a cynic


Maybe in Ireland but in our US legal system the elected
Hennepin County District Attorney decides whether to
prosecute and which charges:
https://www.hennepinattorney.org/hcao-highlights

The Minnesota Attorney General can involve himself (I
think-? pending Jay's comments) if there are
ethical/official misconduct or constitutional issues but
otherwise not.

One might suggest that a ridiculous overcharge will play
very well in the press until November, while an acquittal
would be after Mr Freeman's re election, i.e., meaningless
to him. (I'm sometimes called cynical. We'll see.)

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I don't know the precise details of the system in Ireland. In England what you still have is a Coroner, who is a layman, usually the doctor who signed the death certificate, who can hold an enquiry and/or simply decide to refer the case to the police and the public prosecutor for investigation and framing a charge if there is evidence of wrongdoing. The Public Prosecutor's office is staffed by career professionals, not political appointees; and for prosecutors, especially in capital cases, they hire ad hoc from the pool of senior lawyers, called barristers, or colloquially, "silks"; for a really serious case they'll hire an expensive Queen's Counsel, a fellow recognised for his excellence in previous cases he prosecuted for them. The AG, who is the Government's chief attorney (1), is presumably responsible to his political masters for scandals of over- or under-charging, but it is so rare as to be notable for the politicians to step in and say a miscarriage has occurred, and in the few cases I know about, they did so only after the courts followed through with an obviously unjust sentence. There is no reason to believe the system in Ireland isn't much the same.

Generally speaking, in the UK and Ireland, law officers and the justice apparatus is staffed by career professionals, not political appointees as in the US. Of course, the Old Boy network may have the same effect but what is more amazing than any observable corruption is in fact how often justice triumphs over the old school tie.

Andre Jute
(1) The AG is normally a member of the governing party, but the he'd of the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) doesn't normally change with the government. Sir Keith Starmer, the new leader of the Labour Party, was a very successful head of the CPS. and I bet, now that the Conservatives have seen him take a firm grip on Labour, expelling the worst anti-Semites, a leader in a different class from the ineffectual Corbyn, they're sorry they didn't somehow persuade him to stay there!
 




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