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  #131  
Old June 29th 20, 05:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Default Government Bicycle Program News

On 6/28/2020 6:12 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

It's always good to do ordinance house cleaning, but it probably had no practical effect -- unless your state has some provision allowing cities to
control bikes.


We still have a law requiring bicycle licenses, to be issued by the City
Manager. Someone actually did contact the City asking to get a license,
but it's been decades since these were issued. It's on our list of
things to do to clean up some old ordinances but it's a question of
priorities. We already have way too much on our work plan and we don't
want to hire more staff to clean up old ordinances that aren't doing any
harm, especially now, given the loss in revenue due to Covid-19.
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  #133  
Old June 29th 20, 09:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Default Government Bicycle Program News

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 10:54:08 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 6/28/2020 8:26 PM, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 19:45:19 -0700, wrote:

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 11:44:45 PM UTC-5, news18 wrote:
On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 16:02:47 +0700, John B. wrote:



Rationalize it any way that you want to but my guess is that if the
state were to promulgate a helmet law, and enforce it, that the
numbers of bicyclists would remain about the same.

Or are you telling us that if you were forced to wear a helmet you
would give up bicycles?

Err, John, your head is in the clouds and you are looking at the area
of smallest impact.

First point is that over here, the biggest market for bicycles are kids
bicycles and adding the price of a compulsory helmet to the purchase on
the bicycle can start at an extra 25% cost on purchase. It has a big
impact for some families on weather kids get bicycles or not.

"over here" meaning Europe? Not the USA? In the USA I do not know if
kids bicycles or adult bicycles is the biggest market. For numbers or
dollars.


Australia and that was correct through the 80s, 90s ans 00's.

For kids one might assume number of bicycles sold is biggest. But, I
own nine bicycles. And most of the people I ride with own 2-3-4-5-6
bicycles or so. And many of the adults I ride with rotate through
bicycles every few years or so. So the four bikes they own change every
decade or so. Whereas a kid might have two or three bikes total over
their whole childhood as they grow in size.


YMarketMV, but I'll still bet the number of kids greater than number of
adult bicycle riders and I'll further bet that adult Granted the number
of adult and that very few adult bicyclists have multiple bicycles.

I know the details of the Australian market because in the 80's I was
involved in researching advertising for an event for the Australian
Bicentennial and I've been reading Australian bicycle trade magazines
ever since.

For dollars, I am sure the adult bicycle sales far surpass the total kid
bike sales.


You need to talk to various wholesalers. As i said, Your Market May Vary.

Adult bikes start at $1000


Not over here.


Not sure where Russell is located, but in the U.S. the mass market for
adult bicycles from bike shops is in bicycles priced $500 and under. Not
a lot of profit in those bicycles, but the high-priced bicycles, that
sell in much lower quantities, are what the shops depend on. During the
current bicycle shortage you can still buy the $1000+ models but for the
$500 or so models there's a long wait as shops wait for shipments, via
ship, from China.


I am in the middle of Iowa. I know the owner of the Trek bike shop in town but have never talked to him about where his shop earns its revenue. Expensive or cheap bikes, accessories, clothing, mechanical service, etc. That would probably be a fun talk. I ride with a group of adult bicyclists. Avid bicyclists I guess since we ride once or twice a week in the good weather months. They all have multiple bikes each. And NONE of them have $500 and under bikes. $1000 is the very cheapest bike anyone rides. Of course I realize the adult bicyclists I ride with may not represent adult bicyclists very well. We are all probably money hungry grubbing elitists with college degrees. The horror!!!!

Even on RAGBRAI, 10-20,000 person week long bicycle ride across Iowa, I would guess the average price for all bikes is well above $1000. You see very few cheap $2-300 bikes. Very few. Of course the 20,000 bike riders on RAGBRAI may not be representative of adult bicyclists because they are riding 400+ miles over 7 days. And you want a nice, expensive, bike to do that.
  #134  
Old June 29th 20, 11:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Government Bicycle Program News

On 6/29/2020 1:12 PM, wrote:

snip

I am in the middle of Iowa. I know the owner of the Trek bike shop in town but have never talked to him about where his shop earns its revenue. Expensive or cheap bikes, accessories, clothing, mechanical service, etc. That would probably be a fun talk. I ride with a group of adult bicyclists. Avid bicyclists I guess since we ride once or twice a week in the good weather months. They all have multiple bikes each. And NONE of them have $500 and under bikes. $1000 is the very cheapest bike anyone rides. Of course I realize the adult bicyclists I ride with may not represent adult bicyclists very well. We are all probably money hungry grubbing elitists with college degrees. The horror!!!!


You and your friends might be the typical customers at a Trek shop, but
you're not the typical customer at a bike shop not catering to pro
wannabees.

The "family bike shops" around here, not the Specialized or Trek tied
shops, as well as the sporting goods stores with real bicycle
departments (REI and Sports Basement) sell a lot of bicycles in the
sub-$1000 range. And of course you have the big box stores like Walmart
selling BSOs in the $100-200 range, and the sporting goods stores like
Dick's that are selling stuff in the $300-500 range. You also have
online sales like from Linus, and bikesdirect.com.

  #135  
Old June 30th 20, 02:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Government Bicycle Program News

On Monday, June 29, 2020 at 3:38:34 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 6/29/2020 1:12 PM, wrote:

snip

I am in the middle of Iowa. I know the owner of the Trek bike shop in town but have never talked to him about where his shop earns its revenue. Expensive or cheap bikes, accessories, clothing, mechanical service, etc. That would probably be a fun talk. I ride with a group of adult bicyclists.. Avid bicyclists I guess since we ride once or twice a week in the good weather months. They all have multiple bikes each. And NONE of them have $500 and under bikes. $1000 is the very cheapest bike anyone rides. Of course I realize the adult bicyclists I ride with may not represent adult bicyclists very well. We are all probably money hungry grubbing elitists with college degrees. The horror!!!!


You and your friends might be the typical customers at a Trek shop, but
you're not the typical customer at a bike shop not catering to pro
wannabees.


Pro wannabees? A f****** Homer Hillbilly frame goes for $1,500.
https://www..rivbike.com/collections...products/homer A Jan Heine approved handlebar bag goes for $300. https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop...-side-pockets/ You don't have to be a pro wannabe to dump a ton of money on a bike. A Schwalbe Marathon is more than a nice dinner out with drinks. You can dump $2K on a Marin belt-drive commuter over at JoeBike. https://www.joe-bike.com/product/mar...dio-4-4668.htm

And the Trek shop is full of non-pro-wannabe bikes, at least the Trek shop(s) in my town. https://www.bikegallery.com/product-list/bikes-1000/

Is it full of cheap bikes? Nooooo. Oddly, all the people I know who want a cheap bike (admittedly, a small number of people) will not buy off the interweb. I had that conversation with a client just today. So they will find a shop with something cheap, which probably means REI or some place like NoPo Bikeworks. http://www.northportlandbikeworks.com/jamis-bikes.html Still looking at $600-700.

The "family bike shops" around here, not the Specialized or Trek tied
shops, as well as the sporting goods stores with real bicycle
departments (REI and Sports Basement) sell a lot of bicycles in the
sub-$1000 range. And of course you have the big box stores like Walmart
selling BSOs in the $100-200 range, and the sporting goods stores like
Dick's that are selling stuff in the $300-500 range. You also have
online sales like from Linus, and bikesdirect.com.


Family bike shop around he https://www.splendidcycles.com/splen...ty3ab0ylkarcf7 The dreaded motorized Momcycles.. The bicycle version of a speeding truck with a triple-trailer.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #136  
Old June 30th 20, 04:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Government Bicycle Program News

On 6/29/2020 12:48 PM, sms wrote:
On 6/28/2020 7:48 PM, wrote:

snip

I am positive in the USA you cannot buy a bicycle helmet for that
cheap.Â* Wal-Mart, who I assume sells bike helmets, could not make
enough profit on a helmet to sell it that cheap.Â* It would not be
worth the bother of selling.Â* I'd guess $9.99 is the cheapest for
helmets in the USA.Â* Still worth wearing a helmet even at that
outrageously high price.


I've seen closeouts of CPSC approved helmets for as low as $2, but
normally helmets for kids start at around $10 with $15-20 being more
common.

There are many different organizations, both public and private, that
provide free helmets for children. The bottom line is that the lack of
$15 to buy a helmet is not going to keep a kid from acquiring a helmet
if they really want to ride a bicycle.


Here's the real bottom line:

There are plenty of kids whose parents will never spend $15 on a bike
helmet, often because they are poor.

Could they scrape up $15? Sure. But at a certain income level, if you
come up with $15 you think carefully about what to spend it on. Perhaps
it will go for co-pay on a prescription. Perhaps it will pay for a movie
at a discount theater. But a bike helmet is unlikely to be near the top
of the list.

Can they find a helmet giveaway and get a free helmet? Only if they're
very, very lucky. The count of helmets given away is absolutely dwarfed
by the number of kids whose families don't feel they can afford a
helmet, even if they do buy into the propaganda that one is worth having.

Besides, for a lot of low-income kids, $15 would be better spent fixing
their bike brakes or otherwise getting their bike working safely and
properly. I've volunteered mechanical work at bike rodeos, and the
condition of a lot of bikes is much scarier than the lack of a helmet.

Similarly, if you're going to teach a kid one thing about bicycling, it
should not be "Always wear a helmet." That should be far down the list,
after "Ride on the proper side of the road" and "Stop and check traffic
before entering the street" and "Obey stop signs and red lights" etc.

The plague of bicycling brain injuries is almost entirely a myth. The
tremendous protection given by a foam helmet is a similar myth. There
are better places to focus attention.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #137  
Old June 30th 20, 04:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Government Bicycle Program News

On 6/28/2020 9:12 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 9:31:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/28/2020 11:19 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:34:07 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

There's no self-glorification in the work I do. My name didn't get
broadcast when discriminatory laws were repealed, when traffic lights
detected waiting bicyclists, when bike maps were published, etc.

Discriminatory laws? Like blacks had to ride at the back of a tandem?


I was surprised to find out that my village, like some others in Ohio,
had laws saying that a bicyclist must ride on a sidewalk if available;
that a bicyclist must walk the bike across any intersection with a
"through street," whatever that is; that no bicycle could be parked for
any amount of time at all without being locked, etc.

Those provisions and more were all in violation of Ohio law, but were on
the books until I got them removed about five years ago.


It's always good to do ordinance house cleaning, but it probably had no practical effect ...


Our police chief is very reasonable. He's quash any attempt by his cops
to enforce a stupid law. But that wasn't my worry.

My fear was that a motorist might be at fault in a car-bike crash, but
have a lawyer that found the ordinance requiring walking a bike across
any intersection with a "through street," or riding on a sidewalk if
available. IANAL, but it seemed to me that could hamper any effort to
collect damages.

When I brought the issue up, the village solicitor had a different
worry. He said in a sort of panicked voice "We're in violation of Ohio
Revised Code! We need to fix this as an emergency measure!" Village
Council repealed all the weird ordinances immediately.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #138  
Old June 30th 20, 04:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Government Bicycle Program News

On 6/30/2020 10:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/29/2020 12:48 PM, sms wrote:
On 6/28/2020 7:48 PM, wrote:

snip

I am positive in the USA you cannot buy a bicycle helmet
for that cheap. Wal-Mart, who I assume sells bike
helmets, could not make enough profit on a helmet to sell
it that cheap. It would not be worth the bother of
selling. I'd guess $9.99 is the cheapest for helmets in
the USA. Still worth wearing a helmet even at that
outrageously high price.


I've seen closeouts of CPSC approved helmets for as low as
$2, but normally helmets for kids start at around $10 with
$15-20 being more common.

There are many different organizations, both public and
private, that provide free helmets for children. The
bottom line is that the lack of $15 to buy a helmet is not
going to keep a kid from acquiring a helmet if they really
want to ride a bicycle.


Here's the real bottom line:

There are plenty of kids whose parents will never spend $15
on a bike helmet, often because they are poor.

Could they scrape up $15? Sure. But at a certain income
level, if you come up with $15 you think carefully about
what to spend it on. Perhaps it will go for co-pay on a
prescription. Perhaps it will pay for a movie at a discount
theater. But a bike helmet is unlikely to be near the top of
the list.

Can they find a helmet giveaway and get a free helmet? Only
if they're very, very lucky. The count of helmets given away
is absolutely dwarfed by the number of kids whose families
don't feel they can afford a helmet, even if they do buy
into the propaganda that one is worth having.

Besides, for a lot of low-income kids, $15 would be better
spent fixing their bike brakes or otherwise getting their
bike working safely and properly. I've volunteered
mechanical work at bike rodeos, and the condition of a lot
of bikes is much scarier than the lack of a helmet.

Similarly, if you're going to teach a kid one thing about
bicycling, it should not be "Always wear a helmet." That
should be far down the list, after "Ride on the proper side
of the road" and "Stop and check traffic before entering the
street" and "Obey stop signs and red lights" etc.

The plague of bicycling brain injuries is almost entirely a
myth. The tremendous protection given by a foam helmet is a
similar myth. There are better places to focus attention.


Not that things you wrote have no import, but if I were to
choose just one thing it would be 'Air your tires.'

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #139  
Old June 30th 20, 06:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,041
Default Government Bicycle Program News

On Monday, June 29, 2020 at 5:38:34 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 6/29/2020 1:12 PM, wrote:

snip

I am in the middle of Iowa. I know the owner of the Trek bike shop in town but have never talked to him about where his shop earns its revenue. Expensive or cheap bikes, accessories, clothing, mechanical service, etc. That would probably be a fun talk. I ride with a group of adult bicyclists.. Avid bicyclists I guess since we ride once or twice a week in the good weather months. They all have multiple bikes each. And NONE of them have $500 and under bikes. $1000 is the very cheapest bike anyone rides. Of course I realize the adult bicyclists I ride with may not represent adult bicyclists very well. We are all probably money hungry grubbing elitists with college degrees. The horror!!!!


You and your friends might be the typical customers at a Trek shop, but
you're not the typical customer at a bike shop not catering to pro
wannabees.


Maybe. But everyone I ride with is in his 50s, 60s, 70s. I doubt there are too many of them or me with professional bicycling dreams. None of them are poor. They all have sufficient money. And like to ride bikes. So maybe not representative of adult bicyclists across the country. Spending $1-2000 or more on a bicycle every few years is not a big deal.




The "family bike shops" around here, not the Specialized or Trek tied
shops, as well as the sporting goods stores with real bicycle
departments (REI and Sports Basement) sell a lot of bicycles in the
sub-$1000 range. And of course you have the big box stores like Walmart
selling BSOs in the $100-200 range, and the sporting goods stores like
Dick's that are selling stuff in the $300-500 range. You also have
online sales like from Linus, and bikesdirect.com.


Forgot about REI, Dick's, Scheel's, and online bike sales. I was only thinking of official local bike shops. Was not thinking of Wal-Mart for adult bike sales. I have looked at Wal-Mart bikes and if you are a bike mechanic you could tune and fix them up so they would work just fine. No one other than a bike mechanic should ever consider buying one. I think every local bike shop in my area is connected to a major bike brand. Trek, Specialized, Cannondale. Not sure who carries Giant. I do not know if a non connected bike shop can survive. My town of 400,000 has had a few non connected bike shops come and go over the past years. None now.
  #140  
Old June 30th 20, 08:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Government Bicycle Program News

On 6/30/2020 10:00 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 29, 2020 at 5:38:34 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 6/29/2020 1:12 PM,
wrote:

snip

I am in the middle of Iowa. I know the owner of the Trek bike shop in town but have never talked to him about where his shop earns its revenue. Expensive or cheap bikes, accessories, clothing, mechanical service, etc. That would probably be a fun talk. I ride with a group of adult bicyclists. Avid bicyclists I guess since we ride once or twice a week in the good weather months. They all have multiple bikes each. And NONE of them have $500 and under bikes. $1000 is the very cheapest bike anyone rides. Of course I realize the adult bicyclists I ride with may not represent adult bicyclists very well. We are all probably money hungry grubbing elitists with college degrees. The horror!!!!


You and your friends might be the typical customers at a Trek shop, but
you're not the typical customer at a bike shop not catering to pro
wannabees.


Maybe. But everyone I ride with is in his 50s, 60s, 70s. I doubt there are too many of them or me with professional bicycling dreams. None of them are poor. They all have sufficient money. And like to ride bikes. So maybe not representative of adult bicyclists across the country. Spending $1-2000 or more on a bicycle every few years is not a big deal.


I'm my next door neighbor's bicycle repair person and assembler. They
are not poor. So far, during the pandemic, they've bought two Linus
bicycles for the mom and teenage daughter, and I assembled them. The dad
has a Dahon. They are looking for a bicycle for their 12 year old son,
but due to the current bicycle shortage they have been unsuccessful, so
he rides the Dahon for now, and the dad rides some older hybrid. $600 is
about their limit for new bicycles. They are not going on 25 mile or
longer rides. They might do 15 miles.

The bicycle shops in this area usually have plenty of bicycle in the
$400-600 price range. Maybe not the pro-level shops, but the "regular
shops." Supposedly, bicycle shops are going to be restocked sometime in
July or August.

 




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