Carbon Fiber wheels and braking

On 9/27/2020 7:41 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 5:41:44 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Op zondag 27 september 2020 om 01:37:53 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/26/2020 7:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels.

The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would.
Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier.

When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see.

Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less.

Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear.
Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts?
It's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds like most of your riding is solo. If
so, are you trying to spend less time doing your favorite routes? Carbon
rims won't help that very much - maybe a couple percent. But why would
you want to do that?

If you're riding with friends and want to beat them to the next
telephone pole or whatever, those rims may somewhat increase the number
of such sprints you win. But it's a pretty expensive way to say "Ha!
Take that!" to a friend.

If you're road racing at an amateur level, it's much the same - an
expensive way to slightly increase your odds of winning a water bottle.

If you're racing at a higher level than that, don't worry about it. Just
ask your sponsor to buy them for you.

Don't worship technology for technology's sake. It's just another form
of mammon.

--
- Frank Krygowski
Mark asked some questions he liked answers to. He don't need a lecture from someone who has no experience with CF rims.

Lou
Well I pretty much expected that the answer is no not really any better. I am normally a solo rider and I do appreciate brakes that work well. My rim brakes do a fine job unless it is wet but even then they do work fine. I was just getting a bit antsy. Personally I am thinking about going to a disk brake road bike and have been looking at Lynskey R300. Not the lightest animal on the planet but nothing beats them in the price. Going to a disk brake with a bit wider tires for me would a huge change at least I think. I still run 23's but they are fine on the roads I ride. The wider stuff would make some roads easier. I guess what I appreciate more than anything is a real smooth quiet riding bike it that makes sense. I notice I road my Wilier GT last week 3 times and what really was apparent was that it is noisier than the TI Habanero by far. The CF seems to pick up the wind currents and the cables make noise shifting. I went back to my Habby and to me a pretty big difference.

It's refreshing to see someone mention benefits other than speed. I
agree about the joy of a quiet bike.

I wonder if you should just try some high quality 28mm tires. They're
likely to be more comfortable than your 23s and there's a good chance
they'll be faster, especially if your roads have any significant
roughness. Unlike most so-called performance components, they might make
a difference you can actually feel.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Op zondag 27 september 2020 om 13:41:48 UTC+2 schreef :
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 5:41:44 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Op zondag 27 september 2020 om 01:37:53 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/26/2020 7:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels.

The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would.
Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier.

When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see.

Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less.

Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear.
Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts?
It's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds like most of your riding is solo. If
so, are you trying to spend less time doing your favorite routes? Carbon
rims won't help that very much - maybe a couple percent. But why would
you want to do that?

If you're riding with friends and want to beat them to the next
telephone pole or whatever, those rims may somewhat increase the number
of such sprints you win. But it's a pretty expensive way to say "Ha!
Take that!" to a friend.

If you're road racing at an amateur level, it's much the same - an
expensive way to slightly increase your odds of winning a water bottle.

If you're racing at a higher level than that, don't worry about it. Just
ask your sponsor to buy them for you.

Don't worship technology for technology's sake. It's just another form
of mammon.

--
- Frank Krygowski
Mark asked some questions he liked answers to. He don't need a lecture from someone who has no experience with CF rims.

Lou
Well I pretty much expected that the answer is no not really any better. I am normally a solo rider and I do appreciate brakes that work well. My rim brakes do a fine job unless it is wet but even then they do work fine. I was just getting a bit antsy. Personally I am thinking about going to a disk brake road bike and have been looking at Lynskey R300. Not the lightest animal on the planet but nothing beats them in the price. Going to a disk brake with a bit wider tires for me would a huge change at least I think. I still run 23's but they are fine on the roads I ride. The wider stuff would make some roads easier. I guess what I appreciate more than anything is a real smooth quiet riding bike it that makes sense. I notice I road my Wilier GT last week 3 times and what really was apparent was that it is noisier than the TI Habanero by far. The CF seems to pick up the wind currents and the cables make noise shifting. I went back to my Habby and to me a pretty big difference.

Deacon Mark

You are right that a heavier Ti frame with smaller tubes is less of a resonance box as a CF frame with large aero tubes and is definitely a lot quieter. Be aware that high volume CF rims have the same effect, not as much as a CF frame but still. It was wet and windy today so I took my Ti disc gravel bike with 45 mm CF rims and 32 mm Continental GP5000 tires. It was an excellent ride, quiet, reasonable fast and with consistent braking. Concerning wider tires I found this article interesting. Confirms my experience. Low RR and comfort? You can pick one.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...000-comparison

Lou

On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:07:44 PM UTC-7, wrote:

Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts?

If you use the supplied brake pads it does seem that way. That is why I said that you can get nearly normal braking with Campagnolo brake shoes. Again, I cannot vouch for the lifespan of your rims as of yet. But I certainly can tell you that while carbon rims do not brake quite as well as aluminum rims because they do not transfer heat away, the only way to achieve disk brakes is to own a frame that is designed to use disk brakes.

On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 7:17:40 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

CF has its place, but not with rim brakes, IMO. You can get a fine aluminum wheel with most of the same characteristics at the same or even lower weight. I got the CF version of a mid-aero wheel, the Roval C38 -- because it had a better hub (cheap from my son, too), and I appreciate the stiffness. Its on a disc bike. My son traded away his CF rim-brake wheels and got a nice aluminum pair from his friend the Mavic rep. He has CF Rovals on his disc bikes.

The bike I just sold had ProLite Bracianno 40 mm aluminum wheels on them and I weighed them and they weighed a little less than the 50 mm carbon wheels. Now if you don't mind paying a fortune, you can get lighter carbon rims but when I bought those ProLites they cost me $250. I could not tell the difference in speed between the 40 mm ProLites and the 50 mm SuperTeam.

On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 7:51:23 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/27/2020 6:41 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 27 september 2020 om 01:37:53 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/26/2020 7:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels.

The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would.
Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier.

When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see.

Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less.

Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear.
Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts?
It's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds like most of your riding is solo. If
so, are you trying to spend less time doing your favorite routes? Carbon
rims won't help that very much - maybe a couple percent. But why would
you want to do that?

If you're riding with friends and want to beat them to the next
telephone pole or whatever, those rims may somewhat increase the number
of such sprints you win. But it's a pretty expensive way to say "Ha!
Take that!" to a friend.

If you're road racing at an amateur level, it's much the same - an
expensive way to slightly increase your odds of winning a water bottle..

If you're racing at a higher level than that, don't worry about it. Just
ask your sponsor to buy them for you.

Don't worship technology for technology's sake. It's just another form
of mammon.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Mark asked some questions he liked answers to. He don't need a lecture from someone who has no experience with CF rims.

Lou, I notice you get very testy any time I imply that the newest and
fastest and most advertised bike components may not be the best. Are you
on commission?

I doubt it. I think he is responding to your lack of any experience with the equipment you criticize. Meanwhile, Lou uses the stuff you criticize probably every day -- and also has years of using the stuff you use. Same here. I've used all your equipment. You haven't used mine, at least not to any significant degree. About to depart on CF/aluminum wheels (C35s), STI, 25mm tires -- one with a super poseur latex tube. I have CF bars that I really like. CF frame that I like a lot, too. It's quiet. Good cable management. Nothing slaps around.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 11:51:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 7:17:40 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

CF has its place, but not with rim brakes, IMO. You can get a fine aluminum wheel with most of the same characteristics at the same or even lower weight. I got the CF version of a mid-aero wheel, the Roval C38 -- because it had a better hub (cheap from my son, too), and I appreciate the stiffness. Its on a disc bike. My son traded away his CF rim-brake wheels and got a nice aluminum pair from his friend the Mavic rep. He has CF Rovals on his disc bikes.
The bike I just sold had ProLite Bracianno 40 mm aluminum wheels on them and I weighed them and they weighed a little less than the 50 mm carbon wheels. Now if you don't mind paying a fortune, you can get lighter carbon rims but when I bought those ProLites they cost me $250. I could not tell the difference in speed between the 40 mm ProLites and the 50 mm SuperTeam.
So now let me throw another monkey in the cage. What would latex tubes do for the ride? I have never tried them and are they worth it? It seems they are not a puncture resistance and loose air much faster?
Deacon Mark

On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 9:54:42 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 7:51:23 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/27/2020 6:41 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 27 september 2020 om 01:37:53 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/26/2020 7:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels.

The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would.
Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier.

When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see.

Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less.

Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear.
Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts?
It's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds like most of your riding is solo. If
so, are you trying to spend less time doing your favorite routes? Carbon
rims won't help that very much - maybe a couple percent. But why would
you want to do that?

If you're riding with friends and want to beat them to the next
telephone pole or whatever, those rims may somewhat increase the number
of such sprints you win. But it's a pretty expensive way to say "Ha!
Take that!" to a friend.

If you're road racing at an amateur level, it's much the same - an
expensive way to slightly increase your odds of winning a water bottle.

If you're racing at a higher level than that, don't worry about it. Just
ask your sponsor to buy them for you.

Don't worship technology for technology's sake. It's just another form
of mammon.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Mark asked some questions he liked answers to. He don't need a lecture from someone who has no experience with CF rims.

Lou, I notice you get very testy any time I imply that the newest and
fastest and most advertised bike components may not be the best. Are you
on commission?

I doubt it. I think he is responding to your lack of any experience with the equipment you criticize. Meanwhile, Lou uses the stuff you criticize probably every day -- and also has years of using the stuff you use. Same here. I've used all your equipment. You haven't used mine, at least not to any significant degree. About to depart on CF/aluminum wheels (C35s), STI, 25mm tires -- one with a super poseur latex tube. I have CF bars that I really like. CF frame that I like a lot, too. It's quiet. Good cable management. Nothing slaps around.

This is a common theme with Frank and why I continue to get ****ed at him. His entire .tech personality was summed up in his "you didn't hit your head".

I might give you a suggestion pertaining to handlebars - I use integrated handlebars and stem. But a Specialize aluminum handlebar and Cannondale stem are lighter because they are more familiar with their characteristics and have a pretty good idea of how light to you can make them without failures.

On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 9:55:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 11:51:20 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 7:17:40 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

CF has its place, but not with rim brakes, IMO. You can get a fine aluminum wheel with most of the same characteristics at the same or even lower weight. I got the CF version of a mid-aero wheel, the Roval C38 -- because it had a better hub (cheap from my son, too), and I appreciate the stiffness. Its on a disc bike. My son traded away his CF rim-brake wheels and got a nice aluminum pair from his friend the Mavic rep. He has CF Rovals on his disc bikes.
The bike I just sold had ProLite Bracianno 40 mm aluminum wheels on them and I weighed them and they weighed a little less than the 50 mm carbon wheels. Now if you don't mind paying a fortune, you can get lighter carbon rims but when I bought those ProLites they cost me $250. I could not tell the difference in speed between the 40 mm ProLites and the 50 mm SuperTeam.
So now let me throw another monkey in the cage. What would latex tubes do for the ride? I have never tried them and are they worth it? It seems they are not a puncture resistance and loose air much faster?

Latex tubes were used mostly in superlight racing sewups. They started making them available for clinchers but most clinchers have a sidewall too stiff to gain any benefit from the added flexibility of the latex tube. They do reduce rolling resistance slightly but not enough to make their expense worthwhile and they do get flats from the same causes as a light normal tube.

As for racing sewups, they are often so thin that a single criterium would wear them out. I had an entire box of them and had to throw them out because they were cotton casings and natural rubber tread that could not age well..

On 9/27/2020 12:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 7:51:23 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Lou, I notice you get very testy any time I imply that the newest and
fastest and most advertised bike components may not be the best. Are you
on commission?

I doubt it. I think he is responding to your lack of any experience with the equipment you criticize. Meanwhile, Lou uses the stuff you criticize probably every day -- and also has years of using the stuff you use. Same here. I've used all your equipment. You haven't used mine, at least not to any significant degree. About to depart on CF/aluminum wheels (C35s), STI, 25mm tires -- one with a super poseur latex tube. I have CF bars that I really like. CF frame that I like a lot, too. It's quiet. Good cable management. Nothing slaps around.

Liking something is affected by personal taste, priorities,
personalities, fashion, advertising and more. You're right that I can't
tell how much I'd like your CF bike without trying it. I certainly can't
tell how much _you_ would like your CF bike.

But the OP was asking about something much more concrete. He asked how
much difference carbon fiber wheels would make for his riding. One
doesn't have to use CF wheels to know the difference will be small. The
data is out there. Do you really disagree?

There's this thing called "Engineering." Engineers get trained in
performing tests, making measurements, _interpreting_ the resulting data
and applying judgment to produce good results.

Can you imagine a world where the engineering rules included "You
haven't actually run that particular industrial machine, so you can't
help decide whether it would be a good investment for our factory?"

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/27/2020 10:58 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 27 september 2020 om 13:41:48 UTC+2 schreef :
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 5:41:44 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Op zondag 27 september 2020 om 01:37:53 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/26/2020 7:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels.

The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would.
Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier.

When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see.

Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less.

Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear.
Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts?
It's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds like most of your riding is solo. If
so, are you trying to spend less time doing your favorite routes? Carbon
rims won't help that very much - maybe a couple percent. But why would
you want to do that?

If you're riding with friends and want to beat them to the next
telephone pole or whatever, those rims may somewhat increase the number
of such sprints you win. But it's a pretty expensive way to say "Ha!
Take that!" to a friend.

If you're road racing at an amateur level, it's much the same - an
expensive way to slightly increase your odds of winning a water bottle.

If you're racing at a higher level than that, don't worry about it. Just
ask your sponsor to buy them for you.

Don't worship technology for technology's sake. It's just another form
of mammon.

--
- Frank Krygowski
Mark asked some questions he liked answers to. He don't need a lecture from someone who has no experience with CF rims.

Lou
Well I pretty much expected that the answer is no not really any better. I am normally a solo rider and I do appreciate brakes that work well. My rim brakes do a fine job unless it is wet but even then they do work fine. I was just getting a bit antsy. Personally I am thinking about going to a disk brake road bike and have been looking at Lynskey R300. Not the lightest animal on the planet but nothing beats them in the price. Going to a disk brake with a bit wider tires for me would a huge change at least I think. I still run 23's but they are fine on the roads I ride. The wider stuff would make some roads easier. I guess what I appreciate more than anything is a real smooth quiet riding bike it that makes sense. I notice I road my Wilier GT last week 3 times and what really was apparent was that it is noisier than the TI Habanero by far. The CF seems to pick up the wind currents and the cables make noise shifting. I went back to my Habby and to me a pretty big difference.

Deacon Mark

You are right that a heavier Ti frame with smaller tubes is less of a resonance box as a CF frame with large aero tubes and is definitely a lot quieter. Be aware that high volume CF rims have the same effect, not as much as a CF frame but still. It was wet and windy today so I took my Ti disc gravel bike with 45 mm CF rims and 32 mm Continental GP5000 tires. It was an excellent ride, quiet, reasonable fast and with consistent braking. Concerning wider tires I found this article interesting. Confirms my experience. Low RR and comfort? You can pick one.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...000-comparison

There was a lot of interesting detail in that test and article. Their
diamond plate roller is certainly an improvement over a smooth one.

But they are still not modeling the energy losses from vibrating the
rider and bike frame. I suspect the differences between tire sizes would
be greater if that could somehow be accurately measured.


--
- Frank Krygowski