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Carbon Fiber wheels and braking



 
 
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  #41  
Old September 28th 20, 03:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Carbon Fiber wheels and braking

On 9/27/2020 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/27/2020 9:29 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 5:25:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/27/2020 7:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 18:01:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/27/2020 5:21 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 10:21:33 AM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 9/27/2020 12:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 7:51:23 AM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

Lou, I notice you get very testy any time I imply that the
newest and
fastest and most advertised bike components may not be the
best. Are you
on commission?

I doubt it.Â* I think he is responding to your lack of any
experience with the equipment you criticize.Â* Meanwhile, Lou
uses the stuff you criticize probably every day -- and also has
years of using the stuff you use.Â* Same here.Â* I've used all
your equipment.Â* You haven't used mine, at least not to any
significant degree. About to depart on CF/aluminum wheels
(C35s), STI, 25mm tires -- one with a super poseur latex tube. I
have CF bars that I really like. CF frame that I like a lot,
too.Â* It's quiet. Good cable management.Â* Nothing slaps around.

Liking something is affected by personal taste, priorities,
personalities, fashion, advertising and more. You're right that I
can't
tell how much I'd like your CF bike without trying it. I
certainly can't
tell how much _you_ would like your CF bike.

But the OP was asking about something much more concrete. He
asked how
much difference carbon fiber wheels would make for his riding. One
doesn't have to use CF wheels to know the difference will be
small. The
data is out there. Do you really disagree?

There's this thing called "Engineering." Engineers get trained in
performing tests, making measurements, _interpreting_ the
resulting data
and applying judgment to produce good results.

Can you imagine a world where the engineering rules included "You
haven't actually run that particular industrial machine, so you
can't
help decide whether it would be a good investment for our factory?"

Yes.Â* This is why pilots are trained in simulators for various
aircraft.Â* They all fly differently -- even planes with very
similar specs. Same goes with bikes. They're not just a collection
of results from some test frame.

Brake hood shape, bar bend, saddle design, shift lever location
and operation, brake modulation, tire feel (yes feel), pedal and
shoe systems all affect the way a bike rides -- and those things
are not capable of easy expression in engineering terms. A modern
CF or hydroformed aluminum racing bike -- which you do not own or
ride -- is a lot different that a steel racing bike of yore, and
to me, a lot more fun to ride.Â* Its not just "marketing" as you
frequently claim.

I would never take advice on a product from someone with no
experience either owning it or maintaining/warrantying it.Â* I
would want to talk to someone who has used the product in an
environment similar to mine. Riding with people who are in the
industry gives me that opportunity, and that's why I never bought
a CF rim-brake wheel. Too many hills and too much rain for a CF
rim brake wheel.

Again, your argument is focusing on "feel" AKA "the way a bike rides."
I'm not claiming all bikes "feel" the same. I'm not claiming you,
personally, don't enjoy some bikes more than others. But again,
enjoyment and appreciation of "feel" is a very individual thing.

I've always wondered how much cost effects how well a bicycle "feels".
I mean, you just lashed out $7,000 for the new bike.... Of course it
feels good!

I expect you remember the test of the two bikes, one built of the most
expensive steel tubing and a second built from the cheapest. One
painted blue I think and the other pink, and horde of highly qualified
bicycle writers couldn't tell the difference between the two? In fact
several labeled the "cheap" bike as the best feeling.

Mark didn't seem to be asking about "feel." The impression that I got
was that he wanted to know if carbon wheels would make him
significantly
faster. That _is_ an engineering question. The data's out there.

The answer is, any speed increase will be negligible unless you're
in a
race. And even then, it's not likely to help very much.

I'll admit, I haven't dug for the data during this conversation. I'm
curious whether, for a typical solo recreational rider, the aero
advantage of carbon wheels can be negated by a floppy jersey.

That famous magazine blind test used otherwise identical
unmarked frames of various steels.Â* The Columbus Thron was
chosen tops because the slightly heavier weight wasn't
noticed in riding but the stiffer ride was, especially climbing.


Now run that test with my 1977 20lb custom made SP racing bike
against my current 15lb SLR Emonda. The Trek is stiffer in the BB and
the front end and more comfortable than the SP frame, in part due to
the geometry and in part due to the slightly soft and light tail. It
climbs and descends better than any custom steel frame I ever owned,
and I had four or five.Â* My C35 CF wheels with aluminum brake tracks
are stiffer and lighter than my ho-made 32/36 hole ModEs or Fiamme
Reds/Phil/freewheel wheels. 25mm Pro4s with latex tubes ride as well
as Vittoria CX/CGs (although any overinflated tire rides like a rock).
Bar bends and hoods provide a more comfortable perch for my hands, and
the shallow anatomic bend makes for better control descending, and I
don't have to sit down to shift or even take my hands off the levers.
And I have 22 f***** gears! I could, if necessary, live in one
chainring. No Detto bowling shoes with nail-on cleats, and one of the
big improvements, padded handlebar

tape.Â* I do miss open back mesh gloves because it gave me that
noticeable tan that other cyclists immediately recognized.Â* I like the
lightweight lycra jersey I wore today, and I love modern bibs rather
than my old draw-string wooly shorts with dead animal crotch. I even
like modern socks.Â* I have wool jerseys too, but only one short sleeve,
which I would have worn had it been cooler.Â* The long sleeves come out
in winter and later fall.

There are lots of old steel bikes I love to look at, but if I'm going
out for a long ride and want to get home in reasonable time with
enough energy to mow the lawn, I'm taking the modern bike.

-- Jay Beattie.



+1
No one (except Mr Krygowski maybe) denies the superiority of modern
engineering of modern materials in modern designs.

Steel has its own virtues and adherents but where performance and
efficiency matter, carbon has surpassed it.



I'm seeing people change the subject matter so they can defend their
preferences. I'm also seeing people misrepresent my points for the same
reason.

Regarding Andrew's comment: I don't deny engineering progress. I don't
deny that CF frames are lighter and stiffer than steel. I don't deny
that more gears and STI gives more and faster shifts than 5 freewheel
cogs and friction shifters. I don't deny that in a pouring rainstorm
disc brakes will stop more quickly - and so on. I just disagree that
those and similar developments are always worth the expense, and that
it's foolish to make other choices. I think that for people out just
riding around, much of that doesn't matter and is really fashion.
(Remember frames that would not accept 28mm tires? Some guys who rabidly
defended those are now riding gravel bikes!)

Regarding both Andrew's and Jay's comments: Let's keep in mind the
question that started this thread. Mark wanted to know if spending lots
of money to switch to carbon fiber wheels would make a big difference in
his solo recreational riding. That has nothing to do with Jay's carbon
fiber vs. steel frames, his Pro4 tires with latex tubes, the shape of
his bars and hoods, his choice of shoes, etc. Concentrate on the question!

Will spending hundreds of dollars change Mark's rides from pleasant to
wonderful? No, sorry, that's not going to happen. It will make hardly
any difference to him.

And if pointing that out makes someone think me a heretic, they really
ought to think about their own religious views on bike equipment.


--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #42  
Old September 28th 20, 03:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Carbon Fiber wheels and braking

On 9/27/2020 11:12 PM, John B. wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 05:49:36 +0700, John B.
wrote:


On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 13:27:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


On 9/27/2020 10:58 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 27 september 2020 om 13:41:48 UTC+2 schreef :
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 5:41:44 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Op zondag 27 september 2020 om 01:37:53 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/26/2020 7:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels.

The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would.
Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier.

When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see.

Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less.

Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear.
Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts?
It's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds like most of your riding is solo. If
so, are you trying to spend less time doing your favorite routes? Carbon
rims won't help that very much - maybe a couple percent. But why would
you want to do that?

If you're riding with friends and want to beat them to the next
telephone pole or whatever, those rims may somewhat increase the number
of such sprints you win. But it's a pretty expensive way to say "Ha!
Take that!" to a friend.

If you're road racing at an amateur level, it's much the same - an
expensive way to slightly increase your odds of winning a water bottle.

If you're racing at a higher level than that, don't worry about it. Just
ask your sponsor to buy them for you.

Don't worship technology for technology's sake. It's just another form
of mammon.

--
- Frank Krygowski
Mark asked some questions he liked answers to. He don't need a lecture from someone who has no experience with CF rims.

Lou
Well I pretty much expected that the answer is no not really any better. I am normally a solo rider and I do appreciate brakes that work well. My rim brakes do a fine job unless it is wet but even then they do work fine. I was just getting a bit antsy. Personally I am thinking about going to a disk brake road bike and have been looking at Lynskey R300. Not the lightest animal on the planet but nothing beats them in the price. Going to a disk brake with a bit wider tires for me would a huge change at least I think. I still run 23's but they are fine on the roads I ride. The wider stuff would make some roads easier. I guess what I appreciate more than anything is a real smooth quiet riding bike it that makes sense. I notice I road my Wilier GT last week 3 times and what really was apparent was that it is noisier than the TI Habanero by far. The CF seems to pick up the wind currents and the cables make noise shifting. I went back to my Habby and to me a pretty big difference.

Deacon Mark

You are right that a heavier Ti frame with smaller tubes is less of a resonance box as a CF frame with large aero tubes and is definitely a lot quieter. Be aware that high volume CF rims have the same effect, not as much as a CF frame but still. It was wet and windy today so I took my Ti disc gravel bike with 45 mm CF rims and 32 mm Continental GP5000 tires. It was an excellent ride, quiet, reasonable fast and with consistent braking. Concerning wider tires I found this article interesting. Confirms my experience. Low RR and comfort? You can pick one.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...000-comparison

There was a lot of interesting detail in that test and article. Their
diamond plate roller is certainly an improvement over a smooth one.

But they are still not modeling the energy losses from vibrating the
rider and bike frame. I suspect the differences between tire sizes would
be greater if that could somehow be accurately measured.


But I wonder whether rolling resistance is applicable to real life.
After all the rolling resistance of a, oh say 28mm tire, must vary
whether supporting a 120 lb rider or a 200 lb rider.

Perhaps the way to low rolling resistance is "loose weight"!


I think that ought to read "lose weight" :-(


Yep. And I think that may be the most common misspelling on the internet.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #43  
Old September 28th 20, 04:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Carbon Fiber wheels and braking

On 9/28/2020 10:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 1:48:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But since you are so experienced with so much excellent equipment, why
don't you give us an estimate of how much the deacon's average speed
will change by switching to CF wheels?

I realize I'm asking a guy who once claimed his wheels or tires actually
made the bike accelerate when coasting on flat ground. But I'd like to
see your estimate anyway.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, is there any bull**** you and the rest of your Democrat friends won't try to pass off to people who are usually themselves too honest to consider the fact that you are lying purposely to them because you have done nothing, been nowhere and are afraid that you'll be found out?


Why no answer to the technical question, Tom?

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #44  
Old September 28th 20, 05:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Carbon Fiber wheels and braking

On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 7:42:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/27/2020 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/27/2020 9:29 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 5:25:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/27/2020 7:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 18:01:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/27/2020 5:21 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 10:21:33 AM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 9/27/2020 12:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 7:51:23 AM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

Lou, I notice you get very testy any time I imply that the
newest and
fastest and most advertised bike components may not be the
best. Are you
on commission?

I doubt it.Â* I think he is responding to your lack of any
experience with the equipment you criticize.Â* Meanwhile, Lou
uses the stuff you criticize probably every day -- and also has
years of using the stuff you use.Â* Same here.Â* I've used all
your equipment.Â* You haven't used mine, at least not to any
significant degree. About to depart on CF/aluminum wheels
(C35s), STI, 25mm tires -- one with a super poseur latex tube. I
have CF bars that I really like. CF frame that I like a lot,
too.Â* It's quiet. Good cable management.Â* Nothing slaps around.

Liking something is affected by personal taste, priorities,
personalities, fashion, advertising and more. You're right that I
can't
tell how much I'd like your CF bike without trying it. I
certainly can't
tell how much _you_ would like your CF bike.

But the OP was asking about something much more concrete. He
asked how
much difference carbon fiber wheels would make for his riding. One
doesn't have to use CF wheels to know the difference will be
small. The
data is out there. Do you really disagree?

There's this thing called "Engineering." Engineers get trained in
performing tests, making measurements, _interpreting_ the
resulting data
and applying judgment to produce good results.

Can you imagine a world where the engineering rules included "You
haven't actually run that particular industrial machine, so you
can't
help decide whether it would be a good investment for our factory?"

Yes.Â* This is why pilots are trained in simulators for various
aircraft.Â* They all fly differently -- even planes with very
similar specs. Same goes with bikes. They're not just a collection
of results from some test frame.

Brake hood shape, bar bend, saddle design, shift lever location
and operation, brake modulation, tire feel (yes feel), pedal and
shoe systems all affect the way a bike rides -- and those things
are not capable of easy expression in engineering terms. A modern
CF or hydroformed aluminum racing bike -- which you do not own or
ride -- is a lot different that a steel racing bike of yore, and
to me, a lot more fun to ride.Â* Its not just "marketing" as you
frequently claim.

I would never take advice on a product from someone with no
experience either owning it or maintaining/warrantying it.Â* I
would want to talk to someone who has used the product in an
environment similar to mine. Riding with people who are in the
industry gives me that opportunity, and that's why I never bought
a CF rim-brake wheel. Too many hills and too much rain for a CF
rim brake wheel.

Again, your argument is focusing on "feel" AKA "the way a bike rides."
I'm not claiming all bikes "feel" the same. I'm not claiming you,
personally, don't enjoy some bikes more than others. But again,
enjoyment and appreciation of "feel" is a very individual thing.

I've always wondered how much cost effects how well a bicycle "feels".
I mean, you just lashed out $7,000 for the new bike.... Of course it
feels good!

I expect you remember the test of the two bikes, one built of the most
expensive steel tubing and a second built from the cheapest. One
painted blue I think and the other pink, and horde of highly qualified
bicycle writers couldn't tell the difference between the two? In fact
several labeled the "cheap" bike as the best feeling.

Mark didn't seem to be asking about "feel." The impression that I got
was that he wanted to know if carbon wheels would make him
significantly
faster. That _is_ an engineering question. The data's out there.

The answer is, any speed increase will be negligible unless you're
in a
race. And even then, it's not likely to help very much.

I'll admit, I haven't dug for the data during this conversation. I'm
curious whether, for a typical solo recreational rider, the aero
advantage of carbon wheels can be negated by a floppy jersey.

That famous magazine blind test used otherwise identical
unmarked frames of various steels.Â* The Columbus Thron was
chosen tops because the slightly heavier weight wasn't
noticed in riding but the stiffer ride was, especially climbing.

Now run that test with my 1977 20lb custom made SP racing bike
against my current 15lb SLR Emonda. The Trek is stiffer in the BB and
the front end and more comfortable than the SP frame, in part due to
the geometry and in part due to the slightly soft and light tail. It
climbs and descends better than any custom steel frame I ever owned,
and I had four or five.Â* My C35 CF wheels with aluminum brake tracks
are stiffer and lighter than my ho-made 32/36 hole ModEs or Fiamme
Reds/Phil/freewheel wheels. 25mm Pro4s with latex tubes ride as well
as Vittoria CX/CGs (although any overinflated tire rides like a rock).
Bar bends and hoods provide a more comfortable perch for my hands, and
the shallow anatomic bend makes for better control descending, and I
don't have to sit down to shift or even take my hands off the levers.
And I have 22 f***** gears! I could, if necessary, live in one
chainring. No Detto bowling shoes with nail-on cleats, and one of the
big improvements, padded handlebar

tape.Â* I do miss open back mesh gloves because it gave me that
noticeable tan that other cyclists immediately recognized.Â* I like the
lightweight lycra jersey I wore today, and I love modern bibs rather
than my old draw-string wooly shorts with dead animal crotch. I even
like modern socks.Â* I have wool jerseys too, but only one short sleeve,
which I would have worn had it been cooler.Â* The long sleeves come out
in winter and later fall.

There are lots of old steel bikes I love to look at, but if I'm going
out for a long ride and want to get home in reasonable time with
enough energy to mow the lawn, I'm taking the modern bike.

-- Jay Beattie.



+1
No one (except Mr Krygowski maybe) denies the superiority of modern
engineering of modern materials in modern designs.

Steel has its own virtues and adherents but where performance and
efficiency matter, carbon has surpassed it.



I'm seeing people change the subject matter so they can defend their
preferences. I'm also seeing people misrepresent my points for the same
reason.

Regarding Andrew's comment: I don't deny engineering progress. I don't
deny that CF frames are lighter and stiffer than steel. I don't deny
that more gears and STI gives more and faster shifts than 5 freewheel
cogs and friction shifters. I don't deny that in a pouring rainstorm
disc brakes will stop more quickly - and so on. I just disagree that
those and similar developments are always worth the expense, and that
it's foolish to make other choices. I think that for people out just
riding around, much of that doesn't matter and is really fashion.
(Remember frames that would not accept 28mm tires? Some guys who rabidly
defended those are now riding gravel bikes!)

Regarding both Andrew's and Jay's comments: Let's keep in mind the
question that started this thread. Mark wanted to know if spending lots
of money to switch to carbon fiber wheels would make a big difference in
his solo recreational riding. That has nothing to do with Jay's carbon
fiber vs. steel frames, his Pro4 tires with latex tubes, the shape of
his bars and hoods, his choice of shoes, etc. Concentrate on the question!

Will spending hundreds of dollars change Mark's rides from pleasant to
wonderful? No, sorry, that's not going to happen. It will make hardly
any difference to him.

And if pointing that out makes someone think me a heretic, they really
ought to think about their own religious views on bike equipment.


My last post was responding to Andrew and the old "can't tell the difference between tube sets" article and not Mark's question about CF wheels, which has been answered in various ways. A CF wheel may produce a lighter, stiffer wheel that may reduce the watts necessary to propel the bike to a certain speed, and it may handle better in corners. A CF rim will have worse rim braking than an aluminum rim, particularly in wet weather. Mark has to judge whether the performance difference justifies the price differential.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #45  
Old September 28th 20, 05:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 826
Default Carbon Fiber wheels and braking

Op maandag 28 september 2020 om 16:42:10 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/27/2020 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/27/2020 9:29 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 5:25:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/27/2020 7:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 18:01:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/27/2020 5:21 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 10:21:33 AM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 9/27/2020 12:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 7:51:23 AM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

Lou, I notice you get very testy any time I imply that the
newest and
fastest and most advertised bike components may not be the
best. Are you
on commission?

I doubt it. I think he is responding to your lack of any
experience with the equipment you criticize. Meanwhile, Lou
uses the stuff you criticize probably every day -- and also has
years of using the stuff you use. Same here. I've used all
your equipment. You haven't used mine, at least not to any
significant degree. About to depart on CF/aluminum wheels
(C35s), STI, 25mm tires -- one with a super poseur latex tube. I
have CF bars that I really like. CF frame that I like a lot,
too. It's quiet. Good cable management. Nothing slaps around.

Liking something is affected by personal taste, priorities,
personalities, fashion, advertising and more. You're right that I
can't
tell how much I'd like your CF bike without trying it. I
certainly can't
tell how much _you_ would like your CF bike.

But the OP was asking about something much more concrete. He
asked how
much difference carbon fiber wheels would make for his riding. One
doesn't have to use CF wheels to know the difference will be
small. The
data is out there. Do you really disagree?

There's this thing called "Engineering." Engineers get trained in
performing tests, making measurements, _interpreting_ the
resulting data
and applying judgment to produce good results.

Can you imagine a world where the engineering rules included "You
haven't actually run that particular industrial machine, so you
can't
help decide whether it would be a good investment for our factory?"

Yes. This is why pilots are trained in simulators for various
aircraft. They all fly differently -- even planes with very
similar specs. Same goes with bikes. They're not just a collection
of results from some test frame.

Brake hood shape, bar bend, saddle design, shift lever location
and operation, brake modulation, tire feel (yes feel), pedal and
shoe systems all affect the way a bike rides -- and those things
are not capable of easy expression in engineering terms. A modern
CF or hydroformed aluminum racing bike -- which you do not own or
ride -- is a lot different that a steel racing bike of yore, and
to me, a lot more fun to ride. Its not just "marketing" as you
frequently claim.

I would never take advice on a product from someone with no
experience either owning it or maintaining/warrantying it. I
would want to talk to someone who has used the product in an
environment similar to mine. Riding with people who are in the
industry gives me that opportunity, and that's why I never bought
a CF rim-brake wheel. Too many hills and too much rain for a CF
rim brake wheel.

Again, your argument is focusing on "feel" AKA "the way a bike rides."
I'm not claiming all bikes "feel" the same. I'm not claiming you,
personally, don't enjoy some bikes more than others. But again,
enjoyment and appreciation of "feel" is a very individual thing.

I've always wondered how much cost effects how well a bicycle "feels".
I mean, you just lashed out $7,000 for the new bike.... Of course it
feels good!

I expect you remember the test of the two bikes, one built of the most
expensive steel tubing and a second built from the cheapest. One
painted blue I think and the other pink, and horde of highly qualified
bicycle writers couldn't tell the difference between the two? In fact
several labeled the "cheap" bike as the best feeling.

Mark didn't seem to be asking about "feel." The impression that I got
was that he wanted to know if carbon wheels would make him
significantly
faster. That _is_ an engineering question. The data's out there.

The answer is, any speed increase will be negligible unless you're
in a
race. And even then, it's not likely to help very much.

I'll admit, I haven't dug for the data during this conversation. I'm
curious whether, for a typical solo recreational rider, the aero
advantage of carbon wheels can be negated by a floppy jersey.

That famous magazine blind test used otherwise identical
unmarked frames of various steels. The Columbus Thron was
chosen tops because the slightly heavier weight wasn't
noticed in riding but the stiffer ride was, especially climbing.

Now run that test with my 1977 20lb custom made SP racing bike
against my current 15lb SLR Emonda. The Trek is stiffer in the BB and
the front end and more comfortable than the SP frame, in part due to
the geometry and in part due to the slightly soft and light tail. It
climbs and descends better than any custom steel frame I ever owned,
and I had four or five. My C35 CF wheels with aluminum brake tracks
are stiffer and lighter than my ho-made 32/36 hole ModEs or Fiamme
Reds/Phil/freewheel wheels. 25mm Pro4s with latex tubes ride as well
as Vittoria CX/CGs (although any overinflated tire rides like a rock).
Bar bends and hoods provide a more comfortable perch for my hands, and
the shallow anatomic bend makes for better control descending, and I
don't have to sit down to shift or even take my hands off the levers.
And I have 22 f***** gears! I could, if necessary, live in one
chainring. No Detto bowling shoes with nail-on cleats, and one of the
big improvements, padded handlebar

tape. I do miss open back mesh gloves because it gave me that
noticeable tan that other cyclists immediately recognized. I like the
lightweight lycra jersey I wore today, and I love modern bibs rather
than my old draw-string wooly shorts with dead animal crotch. I even
like modern socks. I have wool jerseys too, but only one short sleeve,
which I would have worn had it been cooler. The long sleeves come out
in winter and later fall.

There are lots of old steel bikes I love to look at, but if I'm going
out for a long ride and want to get home in reasonable time with
enough energy to mow the lawn, I'm taking the modern bike.

-- Jay Beattie.



+1
No one (except Mr Krygowski maybe) denies the superiority of modern
engineering of modern materials in modern designs.

Steel has its own virtues and adherents but where performance and
efficiency matter, carbon has surpassed it.

I'm seeing people change the subject matter so they can defend their
preferences. I'm also seeing people misrepresent my points for the same
reason.

Regarding Andrew's comment: I don't deny engineering progress. I don't
deny that CF frames are lighter and stiffer than steel. I don't deny
that more gears and STI gives more and faster shifts than 5 freewheel
cogs and friction shifters. I don't deny that in a pouring rainstorm
disc brakes will stop more quickly - and so on. I just disagree that
those and similar developments are always worth the expense, and that
it's foolish to make other choices. I think that for people out just
riding around, much of that doesn't matter and is really fashion.
(Remember frames that would not accept 28mm tires? Some guys who rabidly
defended those are now riding gravel bikes!)

Regarding both Andrew's and Jay's comments: Let's keep in mind the
question that started this thread. Mark wanted to know if spending lots
of money to switch to carbon fiber wheels would make a big difference in
his solo recreational riding. That has nothing to do with Jay's carbon
fiber vs. steel frames, his Pro4 tires with latex tubes, the shape of
his bars and hoods, his choice of shoes, etc. Concentrate on the question!


Huh? Mark didn't mention spending lots of money in his first post or any following post. He didn't even mention solo riding in his first post. He just wanted to know how the braking would be compared what he experience now with Al rims and whether high profile CF rims would blow him all over the place.


Will spending hundreds of dollars change Mark's rides from pleasant to
wonderful? No, sorry, that's not going to happen. It will make hardly
any difference to him.


Let him decide that for himself. He wasn't asking your opinion.


And if pointing that out makes someone think me a heretic, they really
ought to think about their own religious views on bike equipment.


Look at your first post. Snotty remarks all over the place.

Lou

  #46  
Old September 28th 20, 05:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,638
Default Carbon Fiber wheels and braking

On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 10:56:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Perhaps the way to low rolling resistance is "loose weight"!


I think that ought to read "lose weight" :-(


Yep. And I think that may be the most common misspelling on the internet.


OB Bicycles: what effect does loose weight have on wobble?

I usually bungee everything down, and then shake the bike before
mounting.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

  #47  
Old September 28th 20, 08:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Carbon Fiber wheels and braking

On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 8:00:13 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/28/2020 10:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 1:48:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But since you are so experienced with so much excellent equipment, why
don't you give us an estimate of how much the deacon's average speed
will change by switching to CF wheels?

I realize I'm asking a guy who once claimed his wheels or tires actually
made the bike accelerate when coasting on flat ground. But I'd like to
see your estimate anyway.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank, is there any bull**** you and the rest of your Democrat friends won't try to pass off to people who are usually themselves too honest to consider the fact that you are lying purposely to them because you have done nothing, been nowhere and are afraid that you'll be found out?

Why no answer to the technical question, Tom?


Tell us stupid, do you actually think that putting numbers on the added speed of aero wheels is going to make your day? Sorry dummy, the aero wheels make a definitive difference and that is why racing teams are using them. Even the climbers bikes are using them for the slight advantage you can get while climbing at 14 mph on a 7% grade.

Even with the old farts group I spend more than half of my time coasting while they are pedaling constantly with their old box rims. And I have weighed my old superlight Campy Neurons to be almost the same weight as my $250 Chinese Aero rims and the Campy wheels were $1,000 at the time of purchase. You are not just stupid but exceptionally slow witted. I think that you should go back to your freewheeled 5 speed touring bike and pretend that is all that there is worth riding in the world.
  #48  
Old September 28th 20, 09:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Carbon Fiber wheels and braking

On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 9:41:41 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 7:42:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/27/2020 10:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/27/2020 9:29 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 5:25:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/27/2020 7:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 18:01:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/27/2020 5:21 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 10:21:33 AM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 9/27/2020 12:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 7:51:23 AM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

Lou, I notice you get very testy any time I imply that the
newest and
fastest and most advertised bike components may not be the
best. Are you
on commission?

I doubt it. I think he is responding to your lack of any
experience with the equipment you criticize. Meanwhile, Lou
uses the stuff you criticize probably every day -- and also has
years of using the stuff you use. Same here. I've used all
your equipment. You haven't used mine, at least not to any
significant degree. About to depart on CF/aluminum wheels
(C35s), STI, 25mm tires -- one with a super poseur latex tube. I
have CF bars that I really like. CF frame that I like a lot,
too. It's quiet. Good cable management. Nothing slaps around.

Liking something is affected by personal taste, priorities,
personalities, fashion, advertising and more. You're right that I
can't
tell how much I'd like your CF bike without trying it. I
certainly can't
tell how much _you_ would like your CF bike.

But the OP was asking about something much more concrete. He
asked how
much difference carbon fiber wheels would make for his riding. One
doesn't have to use CF wheels to know the difference will be
small. The
data is out there. Do you really disagree?

There's this thing called "Engineering." Engineers get trained in
performing tests, making measurements, _interpreting_ the
resulting data
and applying judgment to produce good results.

Can you imagine a world where the engineering rules included "You
haven't actually run that particular industrial machine, so you
can't
help decide whether it would be a good investment for our factory?"

Yes. This is why pilots are trained in simulators for various
aircraft. They all fly differently -- even planes with very
similar specs. Same goes with bikes. They're not just a collection
of results from some test frame.

Brake hood shape, bar bend, saddle design, shift lever location
and operation, brake modulation, tire feel (yes feel), pedal and
shoe systems all affect the way a bike rides -- and those things
are not capable of easy expression in engineering terms. A modern
CF or hydroformed aluminum racing bike -- which you do not own or
ride -- is a lot different that a steel racing bike of yore, and
to me, a lot more fun to ride. Its not just "marketing" as you
frequently claim.

I would never take advice on a product from someone with no
experience either owning it or maintaining/warrantying it. I
would want to talk to someone who has used the product in an
environment similar to mine. Riding with people who are in the
industry gives me that opportunity, and that's why I never bought
a CF rim-brake wheel. Too many hills and too much rain for a CF
rim brake wheel.

Again, your argument is focusing on "feel" AKA "the way a bike rides."
I'm not claiming all bikes "feel" the same. I'm not claiming you,
personally, don't enjoy some bikes more than others. But again,
enjoyment and appreciation of "feel" is a very individual thing.

I've always wondered how much cost effects how well a bicycle "feels".
I mean, you just lashed out $7,000 for the new bike.... Of course it
feels good!

I expect you remember the test of the two bikes, one built of the most
expensive steel tubing and a second built from the cheapest. One
painted blue I think and the other pink, and horde of highly qualified
bicycle writers couldn't tell the difference between the two? In fact
several labeled the "cheap" bike as the best feeling.

Mark didn't seem to be asking about "feel." The impression that I got
was that he wanted to know if carbon wheels would make him
significantly
faster. That _is_ an engineering question. The data's out there.

The answer is, any speed increase will be negligible unless you're
in a
race. And even then, it's not likely to help very much.

I'll admit, I haven't dug for the data during this conversation. I'm
curious whether, for a typical solo recreational rider, the aero
advantage of carbon wheels can be negated by a floppy jersey.

That famous magazine blind test used otherwise identical
unmarked frames of various steels. The Columbus Thron was
chosen tops because the slightly heavier weight wasn't
noticed in riding but the stiffer ride was, especially climbing.

Now run that test with my 1977 20lb custom made SP racing bike
against my current 15lb SLR Emonda. The Trek is stiffer in the BB and
the front end and more comfortable than the SP frame, in part due to
the geometry and in part due to the slightly soft and light tail. It
climbs and descends better than any custom steel frame I ever owned,
and I had four or five. My C35 CF wheels with aluminum brake tracks
are stiffer and lighter than my ho-made 32/36 hole ModEs or Fiamme
Reds/Phil/freewheel wheels. 25mm Pro4s with latex tubes ride as well
as Vittoria CX/CGs (although any overinflated tire rides like a rock).
Bar bends and hoods provide a more comfortable perch for my hands, and
the shallow anatomic bend makes for better control descending, and I
don't have to sit down to shift or even take my hands off the levers..
And I have 22 f***** gears! I could, if necessary, live in one
chainring. No Detto bowling shoes with nail-on cleats, and one of the
big improvements, padded handlebar
tape. I do miss open back mesh gloves because it gave me that
noticeable tan that other cyclists immediately recognized. I like the
lightweight lycra jersey I wore today, and I love modern bibs rather
than my old draw-string wooly shorts with dead animal crotch. I even
like modern socks. I have wool jerseys too, but only one short sleeve,
which I would have worn had it been cooler. The long sleeves come out
in winter and later fall.

There are lots of old steel bikes I love to look at, but if I'm going
out for a long ride and want to get home in reasonable time with
enough energy to mow the lawn, I'm taking the modern bike.

-- Jay Beattie.



+1
No one (except Mr Krygowski maybe) denies the superiority of modern
engineering of modern materials in modern designs.

Steel has its own virtues and adherents but where performance and
efficiency matter, carbon has surpassed it.



I'm seeing people change the subject matter so they can defend their
preferences. I'm also seeing people misrepresent my points for the same
reason.

Regarding Andrew's comment: I don't deny engineering progress. I don't
deny that CF frames are lighter and stiffer than steel. I don't deny
that more gears and STI gives more and faster shifts than 5 freewheel
cogs and friction shifters. I don't deny that in a pouring rainstorm
disc brakes will stop more quickly - and so on. I just disagree that
those and similar developments are always worth the expense, and that
it's foolish to make other choices. I think that for people out just
riding around, much of that doesn't matter and is really fashion.
(Remember frames that would not accept 28mm tires? Some guys who rabidly
defended those are now riding gravel bikes!)

Regarding both Andrew's and Jay's comments: Let's keep in mind the
question that started this thread. Mark wanted to know if spending lots
of money to switch to carbon fiber wheels would make a big difference in
his solo recreational riding. That has nothing to do with Jay's carbon
fiber vs. steel frames, his Pro4 tires with latex tubes, the shape of
his bars and hoods, his choice of shoes, etc. Concentrate on the question!

Will spending hundreds of dollars change Mark's rides from pleasant to
wonderful? No, sorry, that's not going to happen. It will make hardly
any difference to him.

And if pointing that out makes someone think me a heretic, they really
ought to think about their own religious views on bike equipment.

My last post was responding to Andrew and the old "can't tell the difference between tube sets" article and not Mark's question about CF wheels, which has been answered in various ways. A CF wheel may produce a lighter, stiffer wheel that may reduce the watts necessary to propel the bike to a certain speed, and it may handle better in corners. A CF rim will have worse rim braking than an aluminum rim, particularly in wet weather. Mark has to judge whether the performance difference justifies the price differential.


That is why I suggested you try the Campy carbon rim brake shoes. Maybe they aren't quite as good as aluminum rims, but they are pretty close. And aluminum rim brakes are every bit as bad in the rain.
  #49  
Old September 29th 20, 03:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Carbon Fiber wheels and braking

On 9/28/2020 12:44 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op maandag 28 september 2020 om 16:42:10 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:

Regarding both Andrew's and Jay's comments: Let's keep in mind the
question that started this thread. Mark wanted to know if spending lots
of money to switch to carbon fiber wheels would make a big difference in
his solo recreational riding. That has nothing to do with Jay's carbon
fiber vs. steel frames, his Pro4 tires with latex tubes, the shape of
his bars and hoods, his choice of shoes, etc. Concentrate on the question!


Huh? Mark didn't mention spending lots of money in his first post or any following post. He didn't even mention solo riding in his first post. He just wanted to know how the braking would be compared what he experience now with Al rims and whether high profile CF rims would blow him all over the place.


He didn't mention the money, but one can't buy decent aero carbon rims
without spending a lot of money - at least, compared with more normal rims.

He didn't mention his solo riding in that post, but he's mentioned it
before, which is why I remembered it.

He wanted to know "do they really do much better." How would you
interpret that other than "would they make me faster"?

Will spending hundreds of dollars change Mark's rides from pleasant to
wonderful? No, sorry, that's not going to happen. It will make hardly
any difference to him.


Let him decide that for himself. He wasn't asking your opinion.


??? What on earth do you mean? He posted his questions here!

He seemed to think aero carbon rims would make him significantly faster.
For his non-racing riding they won't, and I said so.

And if pointing that out makes someone think me a heretic, they really
ought to think about their own religious views on bike equipment.


Look at your first post. Snotty remarks all over the place.


Lou, you interpret any questioning of any "performance" feature as
snotty. And you challenge it in a snotty manner.

Not everyone does want to, or should want to, buy every option to
maximize their bike's performance. You need to find a way to accept that.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #50  
Old September 29th 20, 03:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Carbon Fiber wheels and braking

On 9/28/2020 12:48 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 10:56:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Perhaps the way to low rolling resistance is "loose weight"!

I think that ought to read "lose weight" :-(


Yep. And I think that may be the most common misspelling on the internet.


OB Bicycles: what effect does loose weight have on wobble?

I usually bungee everything down, and then shake the bike before
mounting.


Loose weight does affect wobble!

I've mentioned my experience on one tour, where my very rigid Cannondale
touring bike developed an occasional wobble. It turned out to be due to
the stuff in my handlebar bag causing the bag to sway a bit. I think the
natural frequency of the bag's load must have matched some natural
frequency of the bike+rider as a whole.

I re-distributed stuff within the handlebar bag and cured the problem.
Since then, I've built my own bag, one with a very rigid frame.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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