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C13 to C12 Ratio of Natural and Synthetic Testosterone



 
 
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  #31  
Old August 12th 06, 05:42 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
k.papai
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Posts: 37
Default C13 to C12 Ratio of Natural and Synthetic Testosterone


Tom Kunich wrote:
"k.papai" wrote in message
oups.com...
wrote:
wrote:

The difference is small (~3 parts per thousand PDB), but readily
measurable if you've got good technique. It arise from the fact that
synthetic testosterone is produced from plant sterols, which are lower
in 13C than animal hormones/tissues/etc. due to isotopic
discrimination.

Andy Coggan

This isotope test are very difficult. The manufacturer of the testing
equiptment says "quite regularly there are errors."


Exactly my point from yesterday.
I don't see how isotopic tests of C12/C13 could hold any value with
WADA or UCI.

The amounts being tested are phenomonally miniscule.

You need hard evidence and so far there is NONE.


There's more to this than meets the eye - the amount of testosterone in
urine is VERY small. The amount used to TEST is a great deal smaller. That
means that the differential analysis can have large errors simply from
chance.

Think of it this way - if you have three molecules of C12 and one of C13
NORMALLY all it takes if for an addition C13 to be in a test sample to
demonstrate a change of from 4/1 to 4/2 - 25% vs 50%. A 100% increase.


Tom, that's cool, but C13 is an ATOM.
No way in 2006 we have tech that good that can fu**ing tell real
testosterone from plant-derived T. NO F-ing way. Not. Anyone
challenge me??

Here's another source of error - the idea is to filter out everything BUT
testosterone using a column of some sort and then to break the testosterone
down into its components molecules and then use a mass spectrometer to
measure the weight.


I hav used mass specs. I was an A+ student in O-Chem. P-Chem.
Honours Biology, and similar. Triple Integrals at one point in my
academia studentia were nearly trivial.

-Ken Papai

(and Laff-at-me wonders about sh*t and he hasn't a clue and still
thinks Lance s*cks, what a d*ck. Phone me at the State Bar. Unlike
Laff I exist and can help you.).

Columns are far from perfect and since the absolute quantities are low, it
is fairly easy for the technician to catch more than the testosterone in the
mix and to break down other components of the urine as well. Yet another
source of error.

What's more - unless the observer is a specifically and highly trained
individual in the art of GC/Mass Spec, it would be highly unlikely that he
could even detect a faulty separation process. And believe me, it IS and art
and not a science.


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  #32  
Old August 12th 06, 08:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Kyle Legate
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Posts: 648
Default C13 to C12 Ratio of Natural and Synthetic Testosterone

k.papai wrote:

Tom, that's cool, but C13 is an ATOM.
No way in 2006 we have tech that good that can fu**ing tell real
testosterone from plant-derived T. NO F-ing way. Not. Anyone
challenge me??

I do. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I hav used mass specs. I was an A+ student in O-Chem. P-Chem.
Honours Biology, and similar. Triple Integrals at one point in my
academia studentia were nearly trivial.

You still don't know what you're talking about. Mass specs can tell the
difference between C12 and C13.
 




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