Better Braking?

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us
remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of
different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell
apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride
quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of
shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of
a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a
0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important.

Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry
weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better."


Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me.
Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up.....
Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with
single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell
you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike.

Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue -
or should be.

Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana
article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/

Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's?
https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/
Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical
discussion - not all of it correct, of course.

Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics.


As the bike rumour article says that brake was intended for low speed
stuff, and it’s quite a old article there was a rather silly fashion for
small rotors few years back 140mm or so.

Equally dragging brakes isn’t something that disks like, I have a gravel
bike with cheap cable disks 160mm on the road it’s fine it’s subjective
lack of power vs the big MTB brakes on the short steep ramps you get around
my Birthplace are mildly annoying in that you have to give the lever a good
pull, but bare in mind get the odd car etc that has brake failure on these
hills...

On the longer more flowing stuff ie 3 to 20 miles I can’t detect any heat
build up, I am a old MTBer in fairness and am used to disks and getting a
bike down quickly both on/off road.

In short the arguments against are generally someone’s personal opinion
dressed up as facts. But equally there is no law that says you have to like
them!

Personally since my bikes all go off road to some extent and I’m used to
them I’m a fan but equally I can see if you only go out in nice weather
have lots of wheels etc...

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us
remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of
different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell
apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride
quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of
shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of
a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a
0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important.

Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry
weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better."


Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me.
Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up.....
Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with
single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell
you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike.

Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue -
or should be.

Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana
article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/

Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's?
https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/
Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical
discussion - not all of it correct, of course.

Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics.

That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of
descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a
half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work
over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes?

Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes.

- Frank Krygowski


My last Gravel bike, a CX bike had canti’s it often was terrifying due to
lack of power even on road, off road on wet steep hills it was truely
terrifying. Longer sweepy stuff well that’s fine don’t need power for that,
dual pivots/canti/discs cope fine with that.

Roger Merriman

On 2/7/2020 3:37 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

And what is so astonishing is how "they" just can seem to realize how
superior "Mine" are in comparison to all the others :-)

What they fail to realize is that they'd have more influence if they
simply explained why they made the choices that they did and admit that
the choices that they made may not be appropriate for others.

If someone looks at my dynamo lighting on some of my bikes and asks
about it, I'm not going to tell them that they need to do what I did, I
would tell them the pros and cons.

On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 2:45:21 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/7/2020 3:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 11:09:15 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/7/2020 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us
remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of
different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell
apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride
quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of
shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of
a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a
0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important.

Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry
weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better."


Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up.....
Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike.

Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue -
or should be.

Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana
article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/

Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's?
https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/
Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical
discussion - not all of it correct, of course.

Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics.

That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes?

Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes.

- Frank Krygowski

And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs).. A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too.

If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums.

Cheers

There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other.

It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not.


Different cantilevers for MTB/CX bikes? Really? When did
that start?

Didn't you get the memo? Pffff. My CX friends agonized over their cantilevers -- the brakes that were good at shedding mud didn't stop well or stuck out too far, and the brakes that stopped well (better) didn't shed mud. None worked well with STI/Ergo. Spooky, Empella, Paul, etc., etc. I feel sorry for those companies now that discs have taken over.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://www.jensonusa.com/Tektro-CR7...ilever%20Brake

https://www.benscycle.com/Shimano-Cy...C%20% 2457.99

As you can see, they are absolutely identical.


Either of those would fit and perform as well on either
style bike, What did I miss?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Try it. The width of the tire makes a difference between which of those operates how.

On Saturday, February 8, 2020 at 12:55:36 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us
remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of
different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell
apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride
quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of
shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of
a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a
0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important.

Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry
weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better."


Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me.
Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up.....
Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with
single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell
you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike.

Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue -
or should be.

Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana
article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/

Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's?
https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/
Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical
discussion - not all of it correct, of course.

Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics.

That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of
descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a
half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work
over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes?

Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes.

- Frank Krygowski


My last Gravel bike, a CX bike had canti’s it often was terrifying due to
lack of power even on road, off road on wet steep hills it was truely
terrifying. Longer sweepy stuff well that’s fine don’t need power for that,
dual pivots/canti/discs cope fine with that.

Roger Merriman

Mine too, using CX V-brakes made all the difference in the world.

On Sat, 8 Feb 2020 09:53:22 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 2/7/2020 3:37 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

And what is so astonishing is how "they" just can seem to realize how
superior "Mine" are in comparison to all the others :-)

What they fail to realize is that they'd have more influence if they
simply explained why they made the choices that they did and admit that
the choices that they made may not be appropriate for others.

If someone looks at my dynamo lighting on some of my bikes and asks
about it, I'm not going to tell them that they need to do what I did, I
would tell them the pros and cons.

Hmmm.... must be a new trait that you have developed since you became
a politician as I distinctly remember you touting cheap Chinese
flashlights as something similar to the "second coming" and
categorically stating that one needed a fully equipped machine shop to
drill a hole in a bike frame.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, 8 February 2020 17:34:40 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 8 Feb 2020 09:53:22 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 2/7/2020 3:37 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

And what is so astonishing is how "they" just can seem to realize how
superior "Mine" are in comparison to all the others :-)

What they fail to realize is that they'd have more influence if they
simply explained why they made the choices that they did and admit that
the choices that they made may not be appropriate for others.

If someone looks at my dynamo lighting on some of my bikes and asks
about it, I'm not going to tell them that they need to do what I did, I
would tell them the pros and cons.

Hmmm.... must be a new trait that you have developed since you became
a politician as I distinctly remember you touting cheap Chinese
flashlights as something similar to the "second coming" and
categorically stating that one needed a fully equipped machine shop to
drill a hole in a bike frame.
--
cheers,

John B.

Yes, he used to engage in quite aggressive guerilla marketing of those flashlights as bicycle lights as well as the assorted kludged mounts for them.

He still avows that you can't drill a hole for and install a Rivnut without destroying the bike unless you have a fully equipped machine shop.

I ignore most of his stances on everything.

Cheers

On Sat, 8 Feb 2020 14:45:37 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Saturday, 8 February 2020 17:34:40 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 8 Feb 2020 09:53:22 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 2/7/2020 3:37 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

And what is so astonishing is how "they" just can seem to realize how
superior "Mine" are in comparison to all the others :-)

What they fail to realize is that they'd have more influence if they
simply explained why they made the choices that they did and admit that
the choices that they made may not be appropriate for others.

If someone looks at my dynamo lighting on some of my bikes and asks
about it, I'm not going to tell them that they need to do what I did, I
would tell them the pros and cons.

Hmmm.... must be a new trait that you have developed since you became
a politician as I distinctly remember you touting cheap Chinese
flashlights as something similar to the "second coming" and
categorically stating that one needed a fully equipped machine shop to
drill a hole in a bike frame.
--
cheers,

John B.

Yes, he used to engage in quite aggressive guerilla marketing of those flashlights as bicycle lights as well as the assorted kludged mounts for them.

He still avows that you can't drill a hole for and install a Rivnut without destroying the bike unless you have a fully equipped machine shop.

I ignore most of his stances on everything.

Cheers

Another example of "mine" is better than "yours", except it is verbal
rather than material...
--
cheers,

John B.

On 2/8/2020 2:34 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Hmmm.... must be a new trait that you have developed since you became
a politician as I distinctly remember you touting cheap Chinese
flashlights as something similar to the "second coming" and
categorically stating that one needed a fully equipped machine shop to
drill a hole in a bike frame.

Of course I did neither of those things.

It is true that several years ago the high-lumen flashlights sold by
companies like Fenix, and paired with a handlebar mount, were a very
good way of having a good self-contained lighting system for not a lot
of money. That was when high-end lighting systems were $200. But I
never claimed that they were "the second coming."

Now there are some excellent self-contained bicycle lights that are
better options and $70-100, i.e.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32802747811.html and
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32881748677.html. Even Frank bought
one, the Oculus from Barry Beams, when he realized that he needed
something to augment his dynamo lighting system.

And while all the experts agree that it's a bad idea to start drilling
holes in your frame for Rivnuts (see
https://yarchive.net/bike/rivnuts.html, if you must do such a thing
then there are jigs you can buy to ensure that the holes are drilled
properly. I.e.
https://www.trick-tools.com/tube-drilling-combo-drill-combo-7526 with
the extra bushing kit
https://www.trick-tools.com/Large-Drill-Bushing-Kit-for-Drill-Rite-Drill-Rite-Bushings-11852.
While a 19/64 drill bit is best used, a 5/16 (20/64) would be acceptable
as well.

On 2/8/2020 3:14 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Yes, he used to engage in quite aggressive guerilla marketing of those flashlights as bicycle lights as well as the assorted kludged mounts for them.

He still avows that you can't drill a hole for and install a Rivnut without destroying the bike unless you have a fully equipped machine shop.

I ignore most of his stances on everything.

Cheers

Another example of "mine" is better than "yours", except it is verbal
rather than material...

LOL, wow, Sir Ridesalot ignores my stances on everything, but still
reads it voraciously! OTOH he's been in my filter list for years since I
find no value in anything he writes.

The key thing is to lead by example. Don't try to tell people what to
do, explain to them why you made the choices you made. If they are
making bad choices maybe gently explain, with cites, why they might want
to reconsider their position.

I.e., your obsession with drilling holes in your frame may be fine for
you, but it's pretty important that people understand why they shouldn't
grab their power drill and do the same thing. Citing the opinions of
experts, as well as explaining the frame warranty policies of the
bicycle manufacturers, may upset you, but I'm pretty certain that you
understand why people might not want to copy what you do.

IMVAIO, the Zefal Gizmo Clamps, the KLICKFix Bottle Fix, and the Minoura
bottle cage holder, are solutions to the problem that do not have the
downside of weakening the frame or allowing water to get inside the
frame. They look no worse that the various clamps that hold other
accessories, such as computers, onto the bicycle.

Everyone would prefer that their frame has cage bosses from the factory,
be they braze-ons or factory installed Rivnuts. When this is not the
case, the prudent method for adding bottle mounts is to use one of the
many clamps that are available.