4-Cross or 5-Cross, help me decide

Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel.

I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like.

I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X?

I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one
before....but if I end up
with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm.

It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5
cross.

pH

On Sep 22, 6:25*pm, pH wrote:
Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel.

I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like.

I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X?

I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one
before....but if I end up
with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm.

It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5
cross.

pH

Depends on whether you interlace or/and tie and solder and exactly
what method you use. In any case, I like to have the inner spokes
leaving the hub flange parallel to it if not actually touching. This
minimises the head loading with an expected longer life than a spoke
which leans away from the flange. This is why when using the
standard interlace method alone, that 36 x 3 on small flange beats 36
x4. It's the simplest way to acheive the minimum head stress.

You may also like to consider that the nipple seats may need
attention if going beyond normal spoke angles.

If this was for a freestyle wheel with quite loose spokes I'd be
inclined to tie and solder an inner crossing only.

On Sep 22, 11:15*am, thirty-six wrote:
On Sep 22, 6:25*pm, pH wrote:

Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel.

I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like.

I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X?

I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one
before....but if I end up
with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm.

It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5
cross.

pH

Depends on whether you interlace or/and tie and solder and exactly
what method you use. * In any case, I like to have the inner spokes
leaving the hub flange parallel to it if not actually touching. *This
minimises the head loading with an expected longer life than a spoke
which leans away from the flange. * This is why when using the
standard interlace method alone, that 36 x 3 on small flange beats 36
x4. * It's the simplest way to acheive the minimum head stress.

You may also like to consider that the nipple seats *may need
attention if going beyond normal spoke angles.

If this was for a freestyle wheel with quite loose spokes I'd be
inclined to tie and solder *an inner crossing only.

Oh, I forgot..
the intended application will be on the back of my Tour Easy (a
recumbent) where it will have a hard life due to my
"superior mass" and the fact that you can't stand up for bumps as on
my uprights.

I prize longevity and strength far far more than weight
considerations, if thats any help.

So far I'm planning to interlace as usual.

pH

Probably doesn't matter for strenth.

Jobst used to say N/9 is the max recommended cross to avoid spoke head interference.

On Sep 22, 7:32*pm, pH wrote:
On Sep 22, 11:15*am, thirty-six wrote:









On Sep 22, 6:25*pm, pH wrote:

Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel..

I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like.

I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X?

I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one
before....but if I end up
with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm.

It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5
cross.

pH

Depends on whether you interlace or/and tie and solder and exactly
what method you use. * In any case, I like to have the inner spokes
leaving the hub flange parallel to it if not actually touching. *This
minimises the head loading with an expected longer life than a spoke
which leans away from the flange. * This is why when using the
standard interlace method alone, that 36 x 3 on small flange beats 36
x4. * It's the simplest way to acheive the minimum head stress.

You may also like to consider that the nipple seats *may need
attention if going beyond normal spoke angles.

If this was for a freestyle wheel with quite loose spokes I'd be
inclined to tie and solder *an inner crossing only.

Oh, I forgot..
the intended application will be on the back of my Tour Easy (a
recumbent) where it will have a hard life due to my
"superior mass" and the fact that you can't stand up for bumps as on
my uprights.

I prize longevity and strength far far more than weight
considerations, if thats any help.

So far I'm planning to interlace as usual.

pH

Examine the deviation angle of an inner spoke from the hub flange.
Ideally it should be parallel. In a simple interlaced wheel more
crossings will increase the deviation, less will reduce it. I doubt
that x5 would be optimal.

On Sep 22, 7:14*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Sep 22, 7:32*pm, pH wrote:



On Sep 22, 11:15*am, thirty-six wrote:

On Sep 22, 6:25*pm, pH wrote:

Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel.

I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like.

I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X?

I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one
before....but if I end up
with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm.

It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5
cross.

pH

Depends on whether you interlace or/and tie and solder and exactly
what method you use. * In any case, I like to have the inner spokes
leaving the hub flange parallel to it if not actually touching. *This
minimises the head loading with an expected longer life than a spoke
which leans away from the flange. * This is why when using the
standard interlace method alone, that 36 x 3 on small flange beats 36
x4. * It's the simplest way to acheive the minimum head stress.

You may also like to consider that the nipple seats *may need
attention if going beyond normal spoke angles.

If this was for a freestyle wheel with quite loose spokes I'd be
inclined to tie and solder *an inner crossing only.

Oh, I forgot..
the intended application will be on the back of my Tour Easy (a
recumbent) where it will have a hard life due to my
"superior mass" and the fact that you can't stand up for bumps as on
my uprights.

I prize longevity and strength far far more than weight
considerations, if thats any help.

So far I'm planning to interlace as usual.

pH

Examine the deviation angle of an inner spoke from the hub flange.
Ideally it should be parallel. In a simple interlaced wheel more
crossings will increase the deviation, less will reduce it. * I doubt
that x5 would be optimal.

Looking at my Cannondale's rear wheel which is:

On Sep 22, 7:14*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Sep 22, 7:32*pm, pH wrote:



On Sep 22, 11:15*am, thirty-six wrote:

On Sep 22, 6:25*pm, pH wrote:

Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel.

I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like.

I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X?

I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one
before....but if I end up
with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm.

It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5
cross.

pH

Depends on whether you interlace or/and tie and solder and exactly
what method you use. * In any case, I like to have the inner spokes
leaving the hub flange parallel to it if not actually touching. *This
minimises the head loading with an expected longer life than a spoke
which leans away from the flange. * This is why when using the
standard interlace method alone, that 36 x 3 on small flange beats 36
x4. * It's the simplest way to acheive the minimum head stress.

You may also like to consider that the nipple seats *may need
attention if going beyond normal spoke angles.

If this was for a freestyle wheel with quite loose spokes I'd be
inclined to tie and solder *an inner crossing only.

Oh, I forgot..
the intended application will be on the back of my Tour Easy (a
recumbent) where it will have a hard life due to my
"superior mass" and the fact that you can't stand up for bumps as on
my uprights.

I prize longevity and strength far far more than weight
considerations, if thats any help.

So far I'm planning to interlace as usual.

pH

Examine the deviation angle of an inner spoke from the hub flange.
Ideally it should be parallel. In a simple interlaced wheel more
crossings will increase the deviation, less will reduce it. * I doubt
that x5 would be optimal.

Looking at my Cannondale rear wheel, which is:
O Phil Hub, 48H
O Mavic Mod 4 rim
O Crossed four

I note that the spokes leave the hub at about a 45 degree angle from
tangent.

The upcoming hub is around 52 mm CTC going to a Wolber Rim which is
all I could find since
Mod 4's seem to be in short supply these days.

I think the large diameter will improve the tangential-ness over the
Phil...

So far I'm leaning to the x4, then...I've had no problem with my
Cannondale, after all...

pH

On Sep 23, 3:46*am, pH wrote:
On Sep 22, 7:14*pm, thirty-six wrote:









On Sep 22, 7:32*pm, pH wrote:

On Sep 22, 11:15*am, thirty-six wrote:

On Sep 22, 6:25*pm, pH wrote:

Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel.

I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like.

I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X?

I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one
before....but if I end up
with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm.

It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5
cross.

pH

Depends on whether you interlace or/and tie and solder and exactly
what method you use. * In any case, I like to have the inner spokes
leaving the hub flange parallel to it if not actually touching. *This
minimises the head loading with an expected longer life than a spoke
which leans away from the flange. * This is why when using the
standard interlace method alone, that 36 x 3 on small flange beats 36
x4. * It's the simplest way to acheive the minimum head stress.

You may also like to consider that the nipple seats *may need
attention if going beyond normal spoke angles.

If this was for a freestyle wheel with quite loose spokes I'd be
inclined to tie and solder *an inner crossing only.

Oh, I forgot..
the intended application will be on the back of my Tour Easy (a
recumbent) where it will have a hard life due to my
"superior mass" and the fact that you can't stand up for bumps as on
my uprights.

I prize longevity and strength far far more than weight
considerations, if thats any help.

So far I'm planning to interlace as usual.

pH

Examine the deviation angle of an inner spoke from the hub flange.
Ideally it should be parallel. In a simple interlaced wheel more
crossings will increase the deviation, less will reduce it. * I doubt
that x5 would be optimal.

Looking at my Cannondale rear wheel, which is:
* *O Phil Hub, 48H
* *O Mavic Mod 4 rim
* *O Crossed four

I note that the spokes leave the hub at about a 45 degree angle from
tangent.

Not that angle. The inner spoke needs to be in-line with the plane of
the wheel where it joins the flange. Unless the inner spoke already
is tight against the flange with a x4 then x5 will increase the
deviation unacceptably, probably negatively affecting the lifespan of
the wheel.


The upcoming hub is around 52 mm CTC going to a Wolber Rim which is
all I could find since
Mod 4's seem to be in short supply these days.

I think the large diameter will improve the tangential-ness over the
Phil...

How close it appears to be at a tangent is not important, it is the
offset to radial which matters, the positioning of the crossings and
the bracing angle of the crossing nearest the rim. Usually a x3 is
always acceptable and a x4 can be made to work on a 36 spoke wheel
when tied and soldered. The bracing angle should normally be about
2:1 I suspect (at this time) a lesser ratio will not structially
benefit a wheel.

So far I'm leaning to the x4, then...I've had no problem with my
Cannondale, after all...

Makes sense.

pH wrote:

Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel.

I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like.

I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X?

I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one
before....but if I end up
with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm.

It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5
cross.

I like cross-5 lacing on 48 spoke wheels; I've used it many times. It
usually employs the same spoke length as cross-4 on 36 holes. If you
have a low-flange 48 hole hub, you might have head overlap. But a low-
flange 48 hole hub is a bad idea all the way around, because it is
prone to flange tear-out.

I say give it a try. That lacing gives a unique basket-like look.

Chalo

On Sep 23, 8:42*am, Chalo wrote:
pH wrote:

Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel.

I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like.

I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X?

I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one
before....but if I end up
with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm.

It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5
cross.

I like cross-5 lacing on 48 spoke wheels; I've used it many times. *It
usually employs the same spoke length as cross-4 on 36 holes. *If you
have a low-flange 48 hole hub, you might have head overlap. *But a low-
flange 48 hole hub is a bad idea all the way around, because it is
prone to flange tear-out.

I say give it a try. *That lacing gives a unique basket-like look.

Chalo

I think you are just being contrary, basket case or not!