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4-Cross or 5-Cross, help me decide
Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel.
I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like. I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X? I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one before....but if I end up with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm. It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5 cross. pH |
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#2
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4-Cross or 5-Cross, help me decide
On Sep 22, 6:25*pm, pH wrote:
Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel. I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like. I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X? I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one before....but if I end up with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm. It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5 cross. pH Depends on whether you interlace or/and tie and solder and exactly what method you use. In any case, I like to have the inner spokes leaving the hub flange parallel to it if not actually touching. This minimises the head loading with an expected longer life than a spoke which leans away from the flange. This is why when using the standard interlace method alone, that 36 x 3 on small flange beats 36 x4. It's the simplest way to acheive the minimum head stress. You may also like to consider that the nipple seats may need attention if going beyond normal spoke angles. If this was for a freestyle wheel with quite loose spokes I'd be inclined to tie and solder an inner crossing only. |
#3
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4-Cross or 5-Cross, help me decide
On Sep 22, 11:15*am, thirty-six wrote:
On Sep 22, 6:25*pm, pH wrote: Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel. I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like. I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X? I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one before....but if I end up with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm. It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5 cross. pH Depends on whether you interlace or/and tie and solder and exactly what method you use. * In any case, I like to have the inner spokes leaving the hub flange parallel to it if not actually touching. *This minimises the head loading with an expected longer life than a spoke which leans away from the flange. * This is why when using the standard interlace method alone, that 36 x 3 on small flange beats 36 x4. * It's the simplest way to acheive the minimum head stress. You may also like to consider that the nipple seats *may need attention if going beyond normal spoke angles. If this was for a freestyle wheel with quite loose spokes I'd be inclined to tie and solder *an inner crossing only. Oh, I forgot.. the intended application will be on the back of my Tour Easy (a recumbent) where it will have a hard life due to my "superior mass" and the fact that you can't stand up for bumps as on my uprights. I prize longevity and strength far far more than weight considerations, if thats any help. So far I'm planning to interlace as usual. pH |
#4
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4-Cross or 5-Cross, help me decide
Probably doesn't matter for strenth.
Jobst used to say N/9 is the max recommended cross to avoid spoke head interference. |
#5
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4-Cross or 5-Cross, help me decide
On Sep 22, 7:32*pm, pH wrote:
On Sep 22, 11:15*am, thirty-six wrote: On Sep 22, 6:25*pm, pH wrote: Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel.. I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like. I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X? I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one before....but if I end up with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm. It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5 cross. pH Depends on whether you interlace or/and tie and solder and exactly what method you use. * In any case, I like to have the inner spokes leaving the hub flange parallel to it if not actually touching. *This minimises the head loading with an expected longer life than a spoke which leans away from the flange. * This is why when using the standard interlace method alone, that 36 x 3 on small flange beats 36 x4. * It's the simplest way to acheive the minimum head stress. You may also like to consider that the nipple seats *may need attention if going beyond normal spoke angles. If this was for a freestyle wheel with quite loose spokes I'd be inclined to tie and solder *an inner crossing only. Oh, I forgot.. the intended application will be on the back of my Tour Easy (a recumbent) where it will have a hard life due to my "superior mass" and the fact that you can't stand up for bumps as on my uprights. I prize longevity and strength far far more than weight considerations, if thats any help. So far I'm planning to interlace as usual. pH Examine the deviation angle of an inner spoke from the hub flange. Ideally it should be parallel. In a simple interlaced wheel more crossings will increase the deviation, less will reduce it. I doubt that x5 would be optimal. |
#6
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4-Cross or 5-Cross, help me decide
On Sep 22, 7:14*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Sep 22, 7:32*pm, pH wrote: On Sep 22, 11:15*am, thirty-six wrote: On Sep 22, 6:25*pm, pH wrote: Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel. I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like. I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X? I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one before....but if I end up with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm. It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5 cross. pH Depends on whether you interlace or/and tie and solder and exactly what method you use. * In any case, I like to have the inner spokes leaving the hub flange parallel to it if not actually touching. *This minimises the head loading with an expected longer life than a spoke which leans away from the flange. * This is why when using the standard interlace method alone, that 36 x 3 on small flange beats 36 x4. * It's the simplest way to acheive the minimum head stress. You may also like to consider that the nipple seats *may need attention if going beyond normal spoke angles. If this was for a freestyle wheel with quite loose spokes I'd be inclined to tie and solder *an inner crossing only. Oh, I forgot.. the intended application will be on the back of my Tour Easy (a recumbent) where it will have a hard life due to my "superior mass" and the fact that you can't stand up for bumps as on my uprights. I prize longevity and strength far far more than weight considerations, if thats any help. So far I'm planning to interlace as usual. pH Examine the deviation angle of an inner spoke from the hub flange. Ideally it should be parallel. In a simple interlaced wheel more crossings will increase the deviation, less will reduce it. * I doubt that x5 would be optimal. Looking at my Cannondale's rear wheel which is: |
#7
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4-Cross or 5-Cross, help me decide
On Sep 22, 7:14*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Sep 22, 7:32*pm, pH wrote: On Sep 22, 11:15*am, thirty-six wrote: On Sep 22, 6:25*pm, pH wrote: Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel. I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like. I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X? I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one before....but if I end up with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm. It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5 cross. pH Depends on whether you interlace or/and tie and solder and exactly what method you use. * In any case, I like to have the inner spokes leaving the hub flange parallel to it if not actually touching. *This minimises the head loading with an expected longer life than a spoke which leans away from the flange. * This is why when using the standard interlace method alone, that 36 x 3 on small flange beats 36 x4. * It's the simplest way to acheive the minimum head stress. You may also like to consider that the nipple seats *may need attention if going beyond normal spoke angles. If this was for a freestyle wheel with quite loose spokes I'd be inclined to tie and solder *an inner crossing only. Oh, I forgot.. the intended application will be on the back of my Tour Easy (a recumbent) where it will have a hard life due to my "superior mass" and the fact that you can't stand up for bumps as on my uprights. I prize longevity and strength far far more than weight considerations, if thats any help. So far I'm planning to interlace as usual. pH Examine the deviation angle of an inner spoke from the hub flange. Ideally it should be parallel. In a simple interlaced wheel more crossings will increase the deviation, less will reduce it. * I doubt that x5 would be optimal. Looking at my Cannondale rear wheel, which is: O Phil Hub, 48H O Mavic Mod 4 rim O Crossed four I note that the spokes leave the hub at about a 45 degree angle from tangent. The upcoming hub is around 52 mm CTC going to a Wolber Rim which is all I could find since Mod 4's seem to be in short supply these days. I think the large diameter will improve the tangential-ness over the Phil... So far I'm leaning to the x4, then...I've had no problem with my Cannondale, after all... pH |
#8
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4-Cross or 5-Cross, help me decide
On Sep 23, 3:46*am, pH wrote:
On Sep 22, 7:14*pm, thirty-six wrote: On Sep 22, 7:32*pm, pH wrote: On Sep 22, 11:15*am, thirty-six wrote: On Sep 22, 6:25*pm, pH wrote: Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel. I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like. I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X? I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one before....but if I end up with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm. It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5 cross. pH Depends on whether you interlace or/and tie and solder and exactly what method you use. * In any case, I like to have the inner spokes leaving the hub flange parallel to it if not actually touching. *This minimises the head loading with an expected longer life than a spoke which leans away from the flange. * This is why when using the standard interlace method alone, that 36 x 3 on small flange beats 36 x4. * It's the simplest way to acheive the minimum head stress. You may also like to consider that the nipple seats *may need attention if going beyond normal spoke angles. If this was for a freestyle wheel with quite loose spokes I'd be inclined to tie and solder *an inner crossing only. Oh, I forgot.. the intended application will be on the back of my Tour Easy (a recumbent) where it will have a hard life due to my "superior mass" and the fact that you can't stand up for bumps as on my uprights. I prize longevity and strength far far more than weight considerations, if thats any help. So far I'm planning to interlace as usual. pH Examine the deviation angle of an inner spoke from the hub flange. Ideally it should be parallel. In a simple interlaced wheel more crossings will increase the deviation, less will reduce it. * I doubt that x5 would be optimal. Looking at my Cannondale rear wheel, which is: * *O Phil Hub, 48H * *O Mavic Mod 4 rim * *O Crossed four I note that the spokes leave the hub at about a 45 degree angle from tangent. Not that angle. The inner spoke needs to be in-line with the plane of the wheel where it joins the flange. Unless the inner spoke already is tight against the flange with a x4 then x5 will increase the deviation unacceptably, probably negatively affecting the lifespan of the wheel. The upcoming hub is around 52 mm CTC going to a Wolber Rim which is all I could find since Mod 4's seem to be in short supply these days. I think the large diameter will improve the tangential-ness over the Phil... How close it appears to be at a tangent is not important, it is the offset to radial which matters, the positioning of the crossings and the bracing angle of the crossing nearest the rim. Usually a x3 is always acceptable and a x4 can be made to work on a 36 spoke wheel when tied and soldered. The bracing angle should normally be about 2:1 I suspect (at this time) a lesser ratio will not structially benefit a wheel. So far I'm leaning to the x4, then...I've had no problem with my Cannondale, after all... Makes sense. |
#9
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4-Cross or 5-Cross, help me decide
pH wrote:
Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel. I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like. I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X? I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one before....but if I end up with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm. It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5 cross. I like cross-5 lacing on 48 spoke wheels; I've used it many times. It usually employs the same spoke length as cross-4 on 36 holes. If you have a low-flange 48 hole hub, you might have head overlap. But a low- flange 48 hole hub is a bad idea all the way around, because it is prone to flange tear-out. I say give it a try. That lacing gives a unique basket-like look. Chalo |
#10
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4-Cross or 5-Cross, help me decide
On Sep 23, 8:42*am, Chalo wrote:
pH wrote: Well, with the days getting shorter, I'm in the mood to build a wheel. I have the hub/rim and it will be 48 spokes since that's what I like. I built my last one 4X, so what are the arguments for or against 5X? I'm leaning towards doing it 5X just because I have not done one before....but if I end up with spoke-head madness at the hub...hmm. It would be nice to hear from some of you who have actually done one 5 cross. I like cross-5 lacing on 48 spoke wheels; I've used it many times. *It usually employs the same spoke length as cross-4 on 36 holes. *If you have a low-flange 48 hole hub, you might have head overlap. *But a low- flange 48 hole hub is a bad idea all the way around, because it is prone to flange tear-out. I say give it a try. *That lacing gives a unique basket-like look. Chalo I think you are just being contrary, basket case or not! |
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