Fun with exponents

On 6/9/2020 8:52 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:24:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Not sure how we got to talking about electricity prices. But in May 2020 I used 320 kwh. Energy charge was $0.08044 per kwh. Total energy charge was $25.74. But funny enough, the total electric portion of my gas and electricity bill was $37.49. So all the other various charges amounted to almost 50% extra. Des Moines, Iowa. I think my utility company uses coal for electricity generation, not natural gas.

Coal has more energy per kg and if I remember correctly you have a lot of local sources for natural gas. In the winter my gas bill is $200. You'd think with all of the refineries around here that natural gas would be cheap.



Select your favorite data points:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/f...nt-d_1298.html

Seems as if natural gas is roughly 50% higher energy density
than coal.

There are a lot of other factors besides energy density for
a stationary generation site. For a vehicle, energy density
is a big deal but consider coal and gas transport costs
(rail vs pipeline) to your generator.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/9/2020 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:57:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 09.06.2020 um 00:24 schrieb :
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:51:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:

If in California you have end user prices of 2 cent per kilowatt
hour, you surprise your power generators lack the money to build
safe power lines. I prefer paying a bit more and having reliable
and safe power instead.

The probkem isn't the lack of for safe lines. These would ALL have
been underground in concrete passages but after running them the next
day the wires would all be gone. They would be sold for scrap copper
prices and surprise - the cops could never discover who it was since
they were all illegals who are considered "hands off" in California.

Actually, I have never heared of live underground wires being stolen (I
would stongly suspect attempting to separate a 330kV line would qualify
immediately for a Darwin award). I have heared of overhead wire on
disused train lines being stolen though.

In Germany, we traditionally have the high- and medium voltage
ditribution through the air and only the in-town "low voltage"
distribution underground, together with telefone, cable TV, fresh water
and sewage.

The underground wiring is all "low" voltage with high voltage supplied via very tall and safe steel towers and on the ground substations to change high voltage low current to low voltage high current.

The underground wires stolen were in new installations without any power on them. After three tries PG&E gave up. It was plain that no one was going to do anything to the illegals carrying on this theft.


Sure, in theory.

Then there's PG&E, infested with "new thought", striving to
break the paradigm of "formerly safe and efficient" with
notable results such as the Camp Fire which immolated Paradise.

But hey the officers, management and regulators will escape
unscathed. Shareholders and bondholders will 'take a
haircut' while you, my friend, will pay. And pay. And pay.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 7:09:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2020 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:57:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 09.06.2020 um 00:24 schrieb :
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:51:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:

If in California you have end user prices of 2 cent per kilowatt
hour, you surprise your power generators lack the money to build
safe power lines. I prefer paying a bit more and having reliable
and safe power instead.

The probkem isn't the lack of for safe lines. These would ALL have
been underground in concrete passages but after running them the next
day the wires would all be gone. They would be sold for scrap copper
prices and surprise - the cops could never discover who it was since
they were all illegals who are considered "hands off" in California.

Actually, I have never heared of live underground wires being stolen (I
would stongly suspect attempting to separate a 330kV line would qualify
immediately for a Darwin award). I have heared of overhead wire on
disused train lines being stolen though.

In Germany, we traditionally have the high- and medium voltage
ditribution through the air and only the in-town "low voltage"
distribution underground, together with telefone, cable TV, fresh water
and sewage.

The underground wiring is all "low" voltage with high voltage supplied via very tall and safe steel towers and on the ground substations to change high voltage low current to low voltage high current.

The underground wires stolen were in new installations without any power on them. After three tries PG&E gave up. It was plain that no one was going to do anything to the illegals carrying on this theft.


Sure, in theory.

Then there's PG&E, infested with "new thought", striving to
break the paradigm of "formerly safe and efficient" with
notable results such as the Camp Fire which immolated Paradise.

But hey the officers, management and regulators will escape
unscathed. Shareholders and bondholders will 'take a
haircut' while you, my friend, will pay. And pay. And pay.

The transmission lines through Paradise were safe and efficient, "were" being the operative word. This was a maintenance problem, and maybe the pursuit of other technologies busted the budget (which is hard to imagine with rate-setting), but there wasn't some failure of cutting edge, green technology. It was old, arcing equipment amid lots of tinder. Paradise is all pine and live/scrub oak and one wonders why it hadn't burned more often.


-- Jay Beattie

jbeattie writes:

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 7:09:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2020 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:57:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 09.06.2020 um 00:24 schrieb :
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:51:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:

If in California you have end user prices of 2 cent per kilowatt
hour, you surprise your power generators lack the money to build
safe power lines. I prefer paying a bit more and having reliable
and safe power instead.

The probkem isn't the lack of for safe lines. These would ALL have
been underground in concrete passages but after running them the next
day the wires would all be gone. They would be sold for scrap copper
prices and surprise - the cops could never discover who it was since
they were all illegals who are considered "hands off" in California.

Actually, I have never heared of live underground wires being stolen (I
would stongly suspect attempting to separate a 330kV line would qualify
immediately for a Darwin award). I have heared of overhead wire on
disused train lines being stolen though.

In Germany, we traditionally have the high- and medium voltage
ditribution through the air and only the in-town "low voltage"
distribution underground, together with telefone, cable TV, fresh water
and sewage.

The underground wiring is all "low" voltage with high voltage
supplied via very tall and safe steel towers and on the ground
substations to change high voltage low current to low voltage high
current.

The underground wires stolen were in new installations without any
power on them. After three tries PG&E gave up. It was plain that
no one was going to do anything to the illegals carrying on this
theft.


Sure, in theory.

Then there's PG&E, infested with "new thought", striving to
break the paradigm of "formerly safe and efficient" with
notable results such as the Camp Fire which immolated Paradise.

But hey the officers, management and regulators will escape
unscathed. Shareholders and bondholders will 'take a
haircut' while you, my friend, will pay. And pay. And pay.

The transmission lines through Paradise were safe and efficient,
"were" being the operative word. This was a maintenance problem, and
maybe the pursuit of other technologies busted the budget (which is
hard to imagine with rate-setting), but there wasn't some failure of
cutting edge, green technology. It was old, arcing equipment amid lots
of tinder. Paradise is all pine and live/scrub oak and one wonders why
it hadn't burned more often.

I remember reading that PG&E had installed more agressive "reclosers" on
those lines, in order to reduce the number of blackouts. A recloser
sends current through a transmission line after a breaker has tripped,
and tries to figure whether it is safe to automatically restore power.

Sounds like newish technology to me, and, although I'm not an expert, it
gives me the heebie jeebies:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...t-12324764.php

Here's more from the IEEE, favorably comparing Victoria, Australia with
California:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise...rked-wildfires

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 7:49:24 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 7:09:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2020 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:57:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 09.06.2020 um 00:24 schrieb :
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:51:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:

If in California you have end user prices of 2 cent per kilowatt
hour, you surprise your power generators lack the money to build
safe power lines. I prefer paying a bit more and having reliable
and safe power instead.

The probkem isn't the lack of for safe lines. These would ALL have
been underground in concrete passages but after running them the next
day the wires would all be gone. They would be sold for scrap copper
prices and surprise - the cops could never discover who it was since
they were all illegals who are considered "hands off" in California..

Actually, I have never heared of live underground wires being stolen (I
would stongly suspect attempting to separate a 330kV line would qualify
immediately for a Darwin award). I have heared of overhead wire on
disused train lines being stolen though.

In Germany, we traditionally have the high- and medium voltage
ditribution through the air and only the in-town "low voltage"
distribution underground, together with telefone, cable TV, fresh water
and sewage.

The underground wiring is all "low" voltage with high voltage supplied via very tall and safe steel towers and on the ground substations to change high voltage low current to low voltage high current.

The underground wires stolen were in new installations without any power on them. After three tries PG&E gave up. It was plain that no one was going to do anything to the illegals carrying on this theft.


Sure, in theory.

Then there's PG&E, infested with "new thought", striving to
break the paradigm of "formerly safe and efficient" with
notable results such as the Camp Fire which immolated Paradise.

But hey the officers, management and regulators will escape
unscathed. Shareholders and bondholders will 'take a
haircut' while you, my friend, will pay. And pay. And pay.

The transmission lines through Paradise were safe and efficient, "were" being the operative word. This was a maintenance problem, and maybe the pursuit of other technologies busted the budget (which is hard to imagine with rate-setting), but there wasn't some failure of cutting edge, green technology. It was old, arcing equipment amid lots of tinder. Paradise is all pine and live/scrub oak and one wonders why it hadn't burned more often.

PG&E was blamed for that fire NOT because anyone actually saw it ignite but because in high winds they saw the lines high above the ground sparking.

But another video was taken with a private power companies substation on the ground in the same area sparking from heavy grass and sticks being blown up against the transformers and actually igniting. Because there was no actual video of that starting a fire either they appear to have gone by the rule that the company with more money is at fault.

Radey Shouman wrote:
jbeattie writes:

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 7:09:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2020 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:57:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 09.06.2020 um 00:24 schrieb :
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:51:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:

If in California you have end user prices of 2 cent per kilowatt
hour, you surprise your power generators lack the money to build
safe power lines. I prefer paying a bit more and having reliable
and safe power instead.

The probkem isn't the lack of for safe lines. These would ALL have
been underground in concrete passages but after running them the next
day the wires would all be gone. They would be sold for scrap copper
prices and surprise - the cops could never discover who it was since
they were all illegals who are considered "hands off" in California.

Actually, I have never heared of live underground wires being stolen (I
would stongly suspect attempting to separate a 330kV line would qualify
immediately for a Darwin award). I have heared of overhead wire on
disused train lines being stolen though.

In Germany, we traditionally have the high- and medium voltage
ditribution through the air and only the in-town "low voltage"
distribution underground, together with telefone, cable TV, fresh water
and sewage.

The underground wiring is all "low" voltage with high voltage
supplied via very tall and safe steel towers and on the ground
substations to change high voltage low current to low voltage high
current.

The underground wires stolen were in new installations without any
power on them. After three tries PG&E gave up. It was plain that
no one was going to do anything to the illegals carrying on this
theft.


Sure, in theory.

Then there's PG&E, infested with "new thought", striving to
break the paradigm of "formerly safe and efficient" with
notable results such as the Camp Fire which immolated Paradise.

But hey the officers, management and regulators will escape
unscathed. Shareholders and bondholders will 'take a
haircut' while you, my friend, will pay. And pay. And pay.

The transmission lines through Paradise were safe and efficient,
"were" being the operative word. This was a maintenance problem, and
maybe the pursuit of other technologies busted the budget (which is
hard to imagine with rate-setting), but there wasn't some failure of
cutting edge, green technology. It was old, arcing equipment amid lots
of tinder. Paradise is all pine and live/scrub oak and one wonders why
it hadn't burned more often.

I remember reading that PG&E had installed more agressive "reclosers" on
those lines, in order to reduce the number of blackouts. A recloser
sends current through a transmission line after a breaker has tripped,
and tries to figure whether it is safe to automatically restore power.

Sounds like newish technology to me, and, although I'm not an expert, it
gives me the heebie jeebies:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...t-12324764.php

Here's more from the IEEE, favorably comparing Victoria, Australia with
California:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise...rked-wildfires


Reclosers are definitely not new technology. They replace fuses and have
the advantage that they allow the circuit to be restored automatically, as
a large percentage of faults are temporary in nature. Now, if your
vegetation management program is not very good and vast swaths of
combustible materials are under the lines, you shouldn’t program the
reclosers for an “aggressive� reclosing policy in an attempt to reduce
customer outage hours.

On 6/9/2020 9:49 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 7:09:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2020 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:57:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 09.06.2020 um 00:24 schrieb :
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:51:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:

If in California you have end user prices of 2 cent per kilowatt
hour, you surprise your power generators lack the money to build
safe power lines. I prefer paying a bit more and having reliable
and safe power instead.

The probkem isn't the lack of for safe lines. These would ALL have
been underground in concrete passages but after running them the next
day the wires would all be gone. They would be sold for scrap copper
prices and surprise - the cops could never discover who it was since
they were all illegals who are considered "hands off" in California.

Actually, I have never heared of live underground wires being stolen (I
would stongly suspect attempting to separate a 330kV line would qualify
immediately for a Darwin award). I have heared of overhead wire on
disused train lines being stolen though.

In Germany, we traditionally have the high- and medium voltage
ditribution through the air and only the in-town "low voltage"
distribution underground, together with telefone, cable TV, fresh water
and sewage.

The underground wiring is all "low" voltage with high voltage supplied via very tall and safe steel towers and on the ground substations to change high voltage low current to low voltage high current.

The underground wires stolen were in new installations without any power on them. After three tries PG&E gave up. It was plain that no one was going to do anything to the illegals carrying on this theft.


Sure, in theory.

Then there's PG&E, infested with "new thought", striving to
break the paradigm of "formerly safe and efficient" with
notable results such as the Camp Fire which immolated Paradise.

But hey the officers, management and regulators will escape
unscathed. Shareholders and bondholders will 'take a
haircut' while you, my friend, will pay. And pay. And pay.

The transmission lines through Paradise were safe and efficient, "were" being the operative word. This was a maintenance problem, and maybe the pursuit of other technologies busted the budget (which is hard to imagine with rate-setting), but there wasn't some failure of cutting edge, green technology. It was old, arcing equipment amid lots of tinder. Paradise is all pine and live/scrub oak and one wonders why it hadn't burned more often.


-- Jay Beattie


Uh, the deficiencies had been noted (systemwide and for that
exact line specifically) for years and 'budgeted' for
repair/replacement repeatedly since 2012(? if I recall) or so.

The regulators and political powers moved those funds to
'Love of Mother Gaia' projects instead. (PG&E management was
along for the ride on that, too.)

Yes it's complex, there are other factors and no one
involved is holy here. As always we're great Monday
quarterbacks but at the time not so much.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/9/2020 10:04 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 7:49:24 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 7:09:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2020 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:57:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 09.06.2020 um 00:24 schrieb :
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:51:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:

If in California you have end user prices of 2 cent per kilowatt
hour, you surprise your power generators lack the money to build
safe power lines. I prefer paying a bit more and having reliable
and safe power instead.

The probkem isn't the lack of for safe lines. These would ALL have
been underground in concrete passages but after running them the next
day the wires would all be gone. They would be sold for scrap copper
prices and surprise - the cops could never discover who it was since
they were all illegals who are considered "hands off" in California.

Actually, I have never heared of live underground wires being stolen (I
would stongly suspect attempting to separate a 330kV line would qualify
immediately for a Darwin award). I have heared of overhead wire on
disused train lines being stolen though.

In Germany, we traditionally have the high- and medium voltage
ditribution through the air and only the in-town "low voltage"
distribution underground, together with telefone, cable TV, fresh water
and sewage.

The underground wiring is all "low" voltage with high voltage supplied via very tall and safe steel towers and on the ground substations to change high voltage low current to low voltage high current.

The underground wires stolen were in new installations without any power on them. After three tries PG&E gave up. It was plain that no one was going to do anything to the illegals carrying on this theft.


Sure, in theory.

Then there's PG&E, infested with "new thought", striving to
break the paradigm of "formerly safe and efficient" with
notable results such as the Camp Fire which immolated Paradise.

But hey the officers, management and regulators will escape
unscathed. Shareholders and bondholders will 'take a
haircut' while you, my friend, will pay. And pay. And pay.

The transmission lines through Paradise were safe and efficient, "were" being the operative word. This was a maintenance problem, and maybe the pursuit of other technologies busted the budget (which is hard to imagine with rate-setting), but there wasn't some failure of cutting edge, green technology. It was old, arcing equipment amid lots of tinder. Paradise is all pine and live/scrub oak and one wonders why it hadn't burned more often.

PG&E was blamed for that fire NOT because anyone actually saw it ignite but because in high winds they saw the lines high above the ground sparking.

But another video was taken with a private power companies substation on the ground in the same area sparking from heavy grass and sticks being blown up against the transformers and actually igniting. Because there was no actual video of that starting a fire either they appear to have gone by the rule that the company with more money is at fault.


The court found that the broken (literally 100 year old)
iron clamps below the failed line were the immediate cause.

PG&E had identified that line specifically for rework
several years before but hadn't quite gotten around to it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/9/2020 11:27 AM, AMuzi wrote:

Yes it's complex, there are other factors and no one involved is holy
here. As always we're great Monday quarterbacks but at the time not so
much.

This is true so very often.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 8:27:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2020 9:49 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 7:09:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2020 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:57:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 09.06.2020 um 00:24 schrieb :
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:51:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:

If in California you have end user prices of 2 cent per kilowatt
hour, you surprise your power generators lack the money to build
safe power lines. I prefer paying a bit more and having reliable
and safe power instead.

The probkem isn't the lack of for safe lines. These would ALL have
been underground in concrete passages but after running them the next
day the wires would all be gone. They would be sold for scrap copper
prices and surprise - the cops could never discover who it was since
they were all illegals who are considered "hands off" in California..

Actually, I have never heared of live underground wires being stolen (I
would stongly suspect attempting to separate a 330kV line would qualify
immediately for a Darwin award). I have heared of overhead wire on
disused train lines being stolen though.

In Germany, we traditionally have the high- and medium voltage
ditribution through the air and only the in-town "low voltage"
distribution underground, together with telefone, cable TV, fresh water
and sewage.

The underground wiring is all "low" voltage with high voltage supplied via very tall and safe steel towers and on the ground substations to change high voltage low current to low voltage high current.

The underground wires stolen were in new installations without any power on them. After three tries PG&E gave up. It was plain that no one was going to do anything to the illegals carrying on this theft.


Sure, in theory.

Then there's PG&E, infested with "new thought", striving to
break the paradigm of "formerly safe and efficient" with
notable results such as the Camp Fire which immolated Paradise.

But hey the officers, management and regulators will escape
unscathed. Shareholders and bondholders will 'take a
haircut' while you, my friend, will pay. And pay. And pay.

The transmission lines through Paradise were safe and efficient, "were" being the operative word. This was a maintenance problem, and maybe the pursuit of other technologies busted the budget (which is hard to imagine with rate-setting), but there wasn't some failure of cutting edge, green technology. It was old, arcing equipment amid lots of tinder. Paradise is all pine and live/scrub oak and one wonders why it hadn't burned more often.


-- Jay Beattie


Uh, the deficiencies had been noted (systemwide and for that
exact line specifically) for years and 'budgeted' for
repair/replacement repeatedly since 2012(? if I recall) or so.

The regulators and political powers moved those funds to
'Love of Mother Gaia' projects instead. (PG&E management was
along for the ride on that, too.)

Yes it's complex, there are other factors and no one
involved is holy here. As always we're great Monday
quarterbacks but at the time not so much.

We don't disagree. It wasn't new technology. It was budgeting/spending. I haven't done the research, but one wonders why this was an issue because with rate-making, there is a guaranteed ROI, and rates are based on operating expenses including R&D and developing new energy sources. I haven't read the stories or parsed the 8K, but even developing new energy sources would be a permissible operating expense for ratemaking purposes. I can't see rate makers limited that expense in light of all the clean energy mandaes. The maintenance money must have been going down some other rat hole. I suspect it went to a non-operating expense like dividends, but I don't know. I'm sure there is a news story somewhere.

Up here, all we care about is grinding up fish in turbines. BPA transmission lines aren't burning things up, but they are an eye-sore. The pretty version: https://www.pathlesspedaled.com/2015...ke-hood-river/ The reality on Lolo transmission corridor: https://wyeastblog.files.wordpress.c...mission031.jpg I love mother Gaia! Don't you love your mother?



-- Jay Beattie.