Fun with exponents

On 6/9/2020 9:52 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:24:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Not sure how we got to talking about electricity prices. But in May 2020 I used 320 kwh. Energy charge was $0.08044 per kwh. Total energy charge was $25.74. But funny enough, the total electric portion of my gas and electricity bill was $37.49. So all the other various charges amounted to almost 50% extra. Des Moines, Iowa. I think my utility company uses coal for electricity generation, not natural gas.

Coal has more energy per kg and if I remember correctly you have a lot of local sources for natural gas. In the winter my gas bill is $200. You'd think with all of the refineries around here that natural gas would be cheap.

How many therms do you use per month?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/9/2020 11:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 8:27:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2020 9:49 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 7:09:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2020 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:57:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 09.06.2020 um 00:24 schrieb :
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:51:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:

If in California you have end user prices of 2 cent per kilowatt
hour, you surprise your power generators lack the money to build
safe power lines. I prefer paying a bit more and having reliable
and safe power instead.

The probkem isn't the lack of for safe lines. These would ALL have
been underground in concrete passages but after running them the next
day the wires would all be gone. They would be sold for scrap copper
prices and surprise - the cops could never discover who it was since
they were all illegals who are considered "hands off" in California.

Actually, I have never heared of live underground wires being stolen (I
would stongly suspect attempting to separate a 330kV line would qualify
immediately for a Darwin award). I have heared of overhead wire on
disused train lines being stolen though.

In Germany, we traditionally have the high- and medium voltage
ditribution through the air and only the in-town "low voltage"
distribution underground, together with telefone, cable TV, fresh water
and sewage.

The underground wiring is all "low" voltage with high voltage supplied via very tall and safe steel towers and on the ground substations to change high voltage low current to low voltage high current.

The underground wires stolen were in new installations without any power on them. After three tries PG&E gave up. It was plain that no one was going to do anything to the illegals carrying on this theft.


Sure, in theory.

Then there's PG&E, infested with "new thought", striving to
break the paradigm of "formerly safe and efficient" with
notable results such as the Camp Fire which immolated Paradise.

But hey the officers, management and regulators will escape
unscathed. Shareholders and bondholders will 'take a
haircut' while you, my friend, will pay. And pay. And pay.

The transmission lines through Paradise were safe and efficient, "were" being the operative word. This was a maintenance problem, and maybe the pursuit of other technologies busted the budget (which is hard to imagine with rate-setting), but there wasn't some failure of cutting edge, green technology. It was old, arcing equipment amid lots of tinder. Paradise is all pine and live/scrub oak and one wonders why it hadn't burned more often.


-- Jay Beattie


Uh, the deficiencies had been noted (systemwide and for that
exact line specifically) for years and 'budgeted' for
repair/replacement repeatedly since 2012(? if I recall) or so.

The regulators and political powers moved those funds to
'Love of Mother Gaia' projects instead. (PG&E management was
along for the ride on that, too.)

Yes it's complex, there are other factors and no one
involved is holy here. As always we're great Monday
quarterbacks but at the time not so much.

We don't disagree. It wasn't new technology. It was budgeting/spending. I haven't done the research, but one wonders why this was an issue because with rate-making, there is a guaranteed ROI, and rates are based on operating expenses including R&D and developing new energy sources. I haven't read the stories or parsed the 8K, but even developing new energy sources would be a permissible operating expense for ratemaking purposes. I can't see rate makers limited that expense in light of all the clean energy mandaes. The maintenance money must have been going down some other rat hole. I suspect it went to a non-operating expense like dividends, but I don't know. I'm sure there is a news story somewhere.

Up here, all we care about is grinding up fish in turbines. BPA transmission lines aren't burning things up, but they are an eye-sore. The pretty version: https://www.pathlesspedaled.com/2015...ke-hood-river/ The reality on Lolo transmission corridor: https://wyeastblog.files.wordpress.c...mission031.jpg I love mother Gaia! Don't you love your mother?



-- Jay Beattie.


There's a heap of reportage on PG&E's history of
not-quite-rectifying known deficiencies:

https://www.record-bee.com/2019/02/2...l-camp-fire-2/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/9/2020 9:52 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:24:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Not sure how we got to talking about electricity prices.Â* But in May
2020 I used 320 kwh.Â* Energy charge was $0.08044 per kwh.Â* Total
energy charge was $25.74.Â* But funny enough, the total electric
portion of my gas and electricity bill was $37.49.Â* So all the other
various charges amounted to almost 50% extra.Â* Des Moines, Iowa.Â* I
think my utility company uses coal for electricity generation, not
natural gas.

Coal has more energy per kg and if I remember correctly you have a lot
of local sources for natural gas. In the winter my gas bill is $200.
You'd think with all of the refineries around here that natural gas
would be cheap.

Evidently you don't remember correctly.

It's easy enough to look up; per Wikipedia, natural gas has an energy
density of 53.6 megajoules per kg; anthracite coal has 26 to 33
megajoules per kg. Other varieties of coal similar or much lower. That
is to say, coal has around *half* the energy per kg of natural gas.

Now per unit of volume, sure coal does "have more energy," vastly more,
'cause you know, solid vs. gas, but you specified "per kg". It's a good
question which comparison is more meaningful.

Tom, do you ever look anything up? It's easy to do. Google is your friend.

Mark J.

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 12:03:11 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/9/2020 9:52 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:24:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Not sure how we got to talking about electricity prices. But in May 2020 I used 320 kwh. Energy charge was $0.08044 per kwh. Total energy charge was $25.74. But funny enough, the total electric portion of my gas and electricity bill was $37.49. So all the other various charges amounted to almost 50% extra. Des Moines, Iowa. I think my utility company uses coal for electricity generation, not natural gas.

Coal has more energy per kg and if I remember correctly you have a lot of local sources for natural gas. In the winter my gas bill is $200. You'd think with all of the refineries around here that natural gas would be cheap.

How many therms do you use per month?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Some of the bills I was able to find.

Feb 2019: electric $36.97 319 kwh; gas $117.87 163 therms
Oct 2019: electric $28.49 233 kwh; gas $17.72 16 therms
Feb 2020: electric $35.73 315 kwh; gas $78.48 138 therms
Mar 2020: electric $32.20 274 kwh; gas $52.61 96 therms
May 2020: electric $37.49 320 kwh; gas $19.64 21 therms

My electricity usage is very constant year round. I don't use an air conditioner to drive up electric cost in the summer. My gas usage varies a lot due to running the furnace in the winter.

On Tuesday, 9 June 2020 13:23:22 UTC-4, Mark J. wrote:
On 6/9/2020 9:52 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:24:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Not sure how we got to talking about electricity prices.Â* But in May
2020 I used 320 kwh.Â* Energy charge was $0.08044 per kwh.Â* Total
energy charge was $25.74.Â* But funny enough, the total electric
portion of my gas and electricity bill was $37.49.Â* So all the other
various charges amounted to almost 50% extra.Â* Des Moines, Iowa.Â* I
think my utility company uses coal for electricity generation, not
natural gas.

Coal has more energy per kg and if I remember correctly you have a lot
of local sources for natural gas. In the winter my gas bill is $200.
You'd think with all of the refineries around here that natural gas
would be cheap.

Evidently you don't remember correctly.

It's easy enough to look up; per Wikipedia, natural gas has an energy
density of 53.6 megajoules per kg; anthracite coal has 26 to 33
megajoules per kg. Other varieties of coal similar or much lower. That
is to say, coal has around *half* the energy per kg of natural gas.

Now per unit of volume, sure coal does "have more energy," vastly more,
'cause you know, solid vs. gas, but you specified "per kg". It's a good
question which comparison is more meaningful.

Tom, do you ever look anything up? It's easy to do. Google is your friend.

Mark J.

Tom often looks stuff up. However if it disagrees with his stacne he disrgards it.

Cheers

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:46:28 +0100, Tosspot
wrote:

On 09/06/2020 10.04, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:25:41 +0100, Tosspot
wrote:

On 09/06/2020 01.53, AMuzi wrote:

snip

Gentlemen, please:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ted-countries/


I have no dog in this fight but ferchrissakes the actual rates are easy
to find.

I knew Germany was the highest for a host of well publicized policy
reasons. It seems Australia doesn't make the Top Ten.

Who let you and your crappy facts in eh? Don't you know this is a
proper argument, and we don.t need your stinking facts when we can make
up our own. Everyone knows Google is run by the draft dodger for his
own nefarious reelection goals anyway.

But if the draft dodger is elected do we protest? Or is it, if they
don't elect a draft dodger we protest. Please reply in a timely manner
as I really do need a new wris****ch and I've been told that Rolex
will have their display window re-glassed shortly.

We should protest as are unalienable democratic right, while at the same
time, not protest, as is our entitlement.

I've starting looking up betting odds for this, I see money to be made.

Or perhaps a protest against protesting :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 09:03:28 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 6/9/2020 8:52 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:24:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Not sure how we got to talking about electricity prices. But in May 2020 I used 320 kwh. Energy charge was $0.08044 per kwh. Total energy charge was $25.74. But funny enough, the total electric portion of my gas and electricity bill was $37.49. So all the other various charges amounted to almost 50% extra. Des Moines, Iowa. I think my utility company uses coal for electricity generation, not natural gas.

Coal has more energy per kg and if I remember correctly you have a lot of local sources for natural gas. In the winter my gas bill is $200. You'd think with all of the refineries around here that natural gas would be cheap.



Select your favorite data points:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/f...nt-d_1298.html

Seems as if natural gas is roughly 50% higher energy density
than coal.

There are a lot of other factors besides energy density for
a stationary generation site. For a vehicle, energy density
is a big deal but consider coal and gas transport costs
(rail vs pipeline) to your generator.

And gas fired plants are much easier to "fix" so folks don't leap
about and scream and shout about contaminating the atmosphere and
global warming.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 6/9/2020 1:44 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 12:03:11 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/9/2020 9:52 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:24:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Not sure how we got to talking about electricity prices. But in May 2020 I used 320 kwh. Energy charge was $0.08044 per kwh. Total energy charge was $25.74. But funny enough, the total electric portion of my gas and electricity bill was $37.49. So all the other various charges amounted to almost 50% extra. Des Moines, Iowa. I think my utility company uses coal for electricity generation, not natural gas.

Coal has more energy per kg and if I remember correctly you have a lot of local sources for natural gas. In the winter my gas bill is $200. You'd think with all of the refineries around here that natural gas would be cheap.

How many therms do you use per month?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Some of the bills I was able to find.

Feb 2019: electric $36.97 319 kwh; gas $117.87 163 therms
Oct 2019: electric $28.49 233 kwh; gas $17.72 16 therms
Feb 2020: electric $35.73 315 kwh; gas $78.48 138 therms
Mar 2020: electric $32.20 274 kwh; gas $52.61 96 therms
May 2020: electric $37.49 320 kwh; gas $19.64 21 therms

My electricity usage is very constant year round. I don't use an air conditioner to drive up electric cost in the summer. My gas usage varies a lot due to running the furnace in the winter.

Our average annual consumption is 4300 kW-hr electricity, 59 MCF gas =
600 therms. We do have whole house AC (for SWMBO), but our electricity
consumptino should drop a bit this year, if all things are equal. I
resurrected a tiny window AC unit we had in storage and reinstalled it
in our bedroom window, so we now need to cool only that room on hot nights.

Like tonight! It hit 94F today. I just turned that unit on.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 09 Jun 2020 12:03:50 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 6/9/2020 11:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 8:27:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2020 9:49 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 7:09:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2020 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:57:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 09.06.2020 um 00:24 schrieb :
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:51:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:

If in California you have end user prices of 2 cent per kilowatt
hour, you surprise your power generators lack the money to build
safe power lines. I prefer paying a bit more and having reliable
and safe power instead.

The probkem isn't the lack of for safe lines. These would ALL have
been underground in concrete passages but after running them the next
day the wires would all be gone. They would be sold for scrap copper
prices and surprise - the cops could never discover who it was since
they were all illegals who are considered "hands off" in California.

Actually, I have never heared of live underground wires being stolen (I
would stongly suspect attempting to separate a 330kV line would qualify
immediately for a Darwin award). I have heared of overhead wire on
disused train lines being stolen though.

In Germany, we traditionally have the high- and medium voltage
ditribution through the air and only the in-town "low voltage"
distribution underground, together with telefone, cable TV, fresh water
and sewage.

The underground wiring is all "low" voltage with high voltage supplied via very tall and safe steel towers and on the ground substations to change high voltage low current to low voltage high current.

The underground wires stolen were in new installations without any power on them. After three tries PG&E gave up. It was plain that no one was going to do anything to the illegals carrying on this theft.


Sure, in theory.

Then there's PG&E, infested with "new thought", striving to
break the paradigm of "formerly safe and efficient" with
notable results such as the Camp Fire which immolated Paradise.

But hey the officers, management and regulators will escape
unscathed. Shareholders and bondholders will 'take a
haircut' while you, my friend, will pay. And pay. And pay.

The transmission lines through Paradise were safe and efficient, "were" being the operative word. This was a maintenance problem, and maybe the pursuit of other technologies busted the budget (which is hard to imagine with rate-setting), but there wasn't some failure of cutting edge, green technology. It was old, arcing equipment amid lots of tinder. Paradise is all pine and live/scrub oak and one wonders why it hadn't burned more often.


-- Jay Beattie


Uh, the deficiencies had been noted (systemwide and for that
exact line specifically) for years and 'budgeted' for
repair/replacement repeatedly since 2012(? if I recall) or so.

The regulators and political powers moved those funds to
'Love of Mother Gaia' projects instead. (PG&E management was
along for the ride on that, too.)

Yes it's complex, there are other factors and no one
involved is holy here. As always we're great Monday
quarterbacks but at the time not so much.

We don't disagree. It wasn't new technology. It was budgeting/spending. I haven't done the research, but one wonders why this was an issue because with rate-making, there is a guaranteed ROI, and rates are based on operating expenses including R&D and developing new energy sources. I haven't read the stories or parsed the 8K, but even developing new energy sources would be a permissible operating expense for ratemaking purposes. I can't see rate makers limited that expense in light of all the clean energy mandaes. The maintenance money must have been going down some other rat hole. I suspect it went to a non-operating expense like dividends, but I don't know. I'm sure there is a news story somewhere.

Up here, all we care about is grinding up fish in turbines. BPA transmission lines aren't burning things up, but they are an eye-sore. The pretty version: https://www.pathlesspedaled.com/2015...ke-hood-river/ The reality on Lolo transmission corridor: https://wyeastblog.files.wordpress.c...mission031.jpg I love mother Gaia! Don't you love your mother?



-- Jay Beattie.


There's a heap of reportage on PG&E's history of
not-quite-rectifying known deficiencies:

https://www.record-bee.com/2019/02/2...l-camp-fire-2/

Not to get in the midst of the other dogs but I do remember back when
I lived in California that electricity was supplied by the company but
the rates were set by the state, or maybe county, and the company was
complaining way back then that the rates weren't high enough to allow
them to do proper maintenance.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 20:01:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/9/2020 1:44 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 12:03:11 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/9/2020 9:52 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:24:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Not sure how we got to talking about electricity prices. But in May 2020 I used 320 kwh. Energy charge was $0.08044 per kwh. Total energy charge was $25.74. But funny enough, the total electric portion of my gas and electricity bill was $37.49. So all the other various charges amounted to almost 50% extra. Des Moines, Iowa. I think my utility company uses coal for electricity generation, not natural gas.

Coal has more energy per kg and if I remember correctly you have a lot of local sources for natural gas. In the winter my gas bill is $200. You'd think with all of the refineries around here that natural gas would be cheap.

How many therms do you use per month?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Some of the bills I was able to find.

Feb 2019: electric $36.97 319 kwh; gas $117.87 163 therms
Oct 2019: electric $28.49 233 kwh; gas $17.72 16 therms
Feb 2020: electric $35.73 315 kwh; gas $78.48 138 therms
Mar 2020: electric $32.20 274 kwh; gas $52.61 96 therms
May 2020: electric $37.49 320 kwh; gas $19.64 21 therms

My electricity usage is very constant year round. I don't use an air conditioner to drive up electric cost in the summer. My gas usage varies a lot due to running the furnace in the winter.

Our average annual consumption is 4300 kW-hr electricity, 59 MCF gas =
600 therms. We do have whole house AC (for SWMBO), but our electricity
consumptino should drop a bit this year, if all things are equal. I
resurrected a tiny window AC unit we had in storage and reinstalled it
in our bedroom window, so we now need to cool only that room on hot nights.

Like tonight! It hit 94F today. I just turned that unit on.

For the same reason we have a separate air con in the rooms we use.
Bedroom, living room/dining room, etc. But 94 degrees? That is
slightly less then the normal day time temperature here, at this time
of the year :-)
--
cheers,

John B.