Tires and Wheels

On 4/3/2020 9:15 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 2, 2020 at 5:36:05 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/2/2020 3:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I wonder if we can keep this thread on-topic?

I noticed on a lot of bicycling forums, at bicycle shops and with bicyclists at stops and/or coffee shops, complain about how hard it is/was to get their tires mounted onto the rims. Getting the tire on was so hard that they had to resort to using some sort of tire jack to get the tire mounted.

#1. Is this super-tight tire/rim fit becoming more common?

#2. Do these bicyclists have to call for a ride if they puncture whilst on a ride? Because they can't get their tire off the rim?

Sounds like a super-tight tire/rim fit might be a good reason to use removeable valve cores and to carry a small bottle of tire sealant on a ride.

Cheers


IMHO the tires have not changed[1] but rather many, all too
damned many, modern rims are deficient in design by having
too small a heigh difference from bead seat to center well.
Compound that negligence with both OEM and LBS who drop in
a too-thick or too wide rim liner and yes, it sucks.
This is clearly not what the brothers Michelin intended!

[1]some variance but IME brands vary more in suppleness than
actual size, stiff, rigid tires being unforgiving of
underlying fit problems
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

That is also a problem. These elastic rim strips definitely are not improving the situation and on tubeless you have to use this paper thin tape sort of stuff that is - of course - made in China. https://www.amazon.com/ZUKKA-Tubeles...dDbGljaz10cnVl

I have now broken so many levers that showing me plastic levers that are not coated steel do not much impress me. I have a set of those Swalbe levers that Tosspot refers to and they don't work well because the ends are too wide Mounting ONE tire has them worn down a great deal.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07ZMX44FK...xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

This is the best I have used so far for this problem but though you CAN get them to nest together it is damn near as hard as mounting a tire.

This not imaginary since the older plastic tire levers snap the ends off on the second try.


Why ever would you use a Chinese rim liner when premium ROC
and USA products are so ubiquitous? Double that incredulity
for inappropriate thickness, material etc. Sheesh. Assuming
you might double the price from one to another, you're still
in the cup of coffee range for expense.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 7:44:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/3/2020 9:15 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 2, 2020 at 5:36:05 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/2/2020 3:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I wonder if we can keep this thread on-topic?

I noticed on a lot of bicycling forums, at bicycle shops and with bicyclists at stops and/or coffee shops, complain about how hard it is/was to get their tires mounted onto the rims. Getting the tire on was so hard that they had to resort to using some sort of tire jack to get the tire mounted..

#1. Is this super-tight tire/rim fit becoming more common?

#2. Do these bicyclists have to call for a ride if they puncture whilst on a ride? Because they can't get their tire off the rim?

Sounds like a super-tight tire/rim fit might be a good reason to use removeable valve cores and to carry a small bottle of tire sealant on a ride.

Cheers


IMHO the tires have not changed[1] but rather many, all too
damned many, modern rims are deficient in design by having
too small a heigh difference from bead seat to center well.
Compound that negligence with both OEM and LBS who drop in
a too-thick or too wide rim liner and yes, it sucks.
This is clearly not what the brothers Michelin intended!

[1]some variance but IME brands vary more in suppleness than
actual size, stiff, rigid tires being unforgiving of
underlying fit problems
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

That is also a problem. These elastic rim strips definitely are not improving the situation and on tubeless you have to use this paper thin tape sort of stuff that is - of course - made in China. https://www.amazon.com/ZUKKA-Tubeles...dDbGljaz10cnVl

I have now broken so many levers that showing me plastic levers that are not coated steel do not much impress me. I have a set of those Swalbe levers that Tosspot refers to and they don't work well because the ends are too wide Mounting ONE tire has them worn down a great deal.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07ZMX44FK...xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

This is the best I have used so far for this problem but though you CAN get them to nest together it is damn near as hard as mounting a tire.

This not imaginary since the older plastic tire levers snap the ends off on the second try.


Why ever would you use a Chinese rim liner when premium ROC
and USA products are so ubiquitous? Double that incredulity
for inappropriate thickness, material etc. Sheesh. Assuming
you might double the price from one to another, you're still
in the cup of coffee range for expense.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

When you buy the wheels they often include rim liners. I have never used them until recently when trying to assemble a new set of wheels that included them. (FSA rim liners).

But comparatively they are paper thin compared to the Trek tubeless wheel liners which must be 3/32nds thick. (See "TLR Rim Strip) https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/e...olorCode=black

On 4/3/2020 12:02 AM, sms wrote:
On 4/2/2020 3:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

I have had a miserable time getting 4Seasons off a HED Ardennes
tubeless ready rim. They stick to the beadseats, and I think the HED
sticky-tape rim strip compounds the problem. You get a flat and sit
there by the side of the road wrestling with the tire like an
over-glued tubular. You can't even get it out of the beadseat to get a
tire iron under the bead. Time and crying makes it break loose.

Hopefully you learned your lesson about using tubeless and went back to
using tubes on those rims. Tubeless tires on bicycles are the answer to
a question that nobody asked (except racers with support vehicles
following them).

I've never taken an Uber or Lyft.Â* That's for sissies.Â* I once
scootered and rode one-legged for 15 miles after breaking a crank. My
wife did come and pick me up after I crashed with my son, but he
called for the ride.Â* I had a broken hand but could have made it home,
maybe. Double tap is a killer with a broken hand. That fracture was
fixed with a Ti plate -- made by Moots. Super fast and light.

I had an impossible time getting the stock tire off of my Dahon Speed
TR. Needed to call for a ride. I had no tire levers with me since
normally they are not necessary. I once bought some Performance "Forte"
700c tires and they were not possible to put on or take off without
levers. When you get the combination of wheels with "difficult" rims and
tires that may be a bit too small, it can require levers. I now have
pretty much switched to all Schwalbe tires and tubes and things are much
better.

The best tire levers I've found are the steel-core levers with plastic
coating. They don't break.
https://www.jensonusa.com/Foundation-305D-Steel-Tire-Lever-Set-Steel-Core-Tire-Lever-Set

On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 3:31:20 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
sms wrote:
On 4/2/2020 3:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

I have had a miserable time getting 4Seasons off a HED Ardennes tubeless
ready rim. They stick to the beadseats, and I think the HED sticky-tape
rim strip compounds the problem. You get a flat and sit there by the
side of the road wrestling with the tire like an over-glued tubular. You
can't even get it out of the beadseat to get a tire iron under the bead.
Time and crying makes it break loose.

Hopefully you learned your lesson about using tubeless and went back to
using tubes on those rims. Tubeless tires on bicycles are the answer to
a question that nobody asked (except racers with support vehicles
following them).

I've never taken an Uber or Lyft. That's for sissies. I once scootered
and rode one-legged for 15 miles after breaking a crank. My wife did
come and pick me up after I crashed with my son, but he called for the
ride. I had a broken hand but could have made it home, maybe. Double
tap is a killer with a broken hand. That fracture was fixed with a Ti
plate -- made by Moots. Super fast and light.

I had an impossible time getting the stock tire off of my Dahon Speed
TR. Needed to call for a ride. I had no tire levers with me since
normally they are not necessary. I once bought some Performance "Forte"
700c tires and they were not possible to put on or take off without
levers. When you get the combination of wheels with "difficult" rims and
tires that may be a bit too small, it can require levers. I now have
pretty much switched to all Schwalbe tires and tubes and things are much
better.





My guess is that Jay’s rims are tubeless ready but his tires are not
tubeless.

Correct. Tubeless ready was foisted upon me by HED. I use tubes.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thursday, 2 April 2020 16:46:36 UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I wonder if we can keep this thread on-topic?

I noticed on a lot of bicycling forums, at bicycle shops and with bicyclists at stops and/or coffee shops, complain about how hard it is/was to get their tires mounted onto the rims. Getting the tire on was so hard that they had to resort to using some sort of tire jack to get the tire mounted.

#1. Is this super-tight tire/rim fit becoming more common?

#2. Do these bicyclists have to call for a ride if they puncture whilst on a ride? Because they can't get their tire off the rim?

Sounds like a super-tight tire/rim fit might be a good reason to use removeable valve cores and to carry a small bottle of tire sealant on a ride.

Cheers

I had a pair of 700C Old School Matrix rims and I tried mounting a pair of iirc Victoria Zafiro tires on them. I somehow managed to get one tire onto a rim but no way could I get the second tire onto the other rim. I decided to give it up and take the tire off the rim I'd managed to get it on. That was because I KNEW that if I punctured on the road that I'd never get that tire off with plastic tire levers. As it was I had the use the round ends of my two cone wrenches to get that tire off. There simply wasn't enough room under the bead to fit a tire lever.

That's around the time I started noticing many posts from people with the same difficulty mounting a tire.

Cheers

On 4/3/2020 2:14 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 2 April 2020 16:46:36 UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I wonder if we can keep this thread on-topic?

I noticed on a lot of bicycling forums, at bicycle shops and with bicyclists at stops and/or coffee shops, complain about how hard it is/was to get their tires mounted onto the rims. Getting the tire on was so hard that they had to resort to using some sort of tire jack to get the tire mounted.

#1. Is this super-tight tire/rim fit becoming more common?

#2. Do these bicyclists have to call for a ride if they puncture whilst on a ride? Because they can't get their tire off the rim?

Sounds like a super-tight tire/rim fit might be a good reason to use removeable valve cores and to carry a small bottle of tire sealant on a ride.

Cheers

I had a pair of 700C Old School Matrix rims and I tried mounting a pair of iirc Victoria Zafiro tires on them. I somehow managed to get one tire onto a rim but no way could I get the second tire onto the other rim. I decided to give it up and take the tire off the rim I'd managed to get it on. That was because I KNEW that if I punctured on the road that I'd never get that tire off with plastic tire levers. As it was I had the use the round ends of my two cone wrenches to get that tire off. There simply wasn't enough room under the bead to fit a tire lever.

That's around the time I started noticing many posts from people with the same difficulty mounting a tire.

Notoriously errant design, those. TruAmerica were not great
in that regard, but the 2d iteration as Matrix were just
awful. Almost no drop from bead seat to center. And they
used medical type thick cotton tape OEM as well.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 9:53:50 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/3/2020 12:02 AM, sms wrote:
On 4/2/2020 3:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

I have had a miserable time getting 4Seasons off a HED Ardennes
tubeless ready rim. They stick to the beadseats, and I think the HED
sticky-tape rim strip compounds the problem. You get a flat and sit
there by the side of the road wrestling with the tire like an
over-glued tubular. You can't even get it out of the beadseat to get a
tire iron under the bead. Time and crying makes it break loose.

Hopefully you learned your lesson about using tubeless and went back to
using tubes on those rims. Tubeless tires on bicycles are the answer to
a question that nobody asked (except racers with support vehicles
following them).

I've never taken an Uber or Lyft.Â* That's for sissies.Â* I once
scootered and rode one-legged for 15 miles after breaking a crank. My
wife did come and pick me up after I crashed with my son, but he
called for the ride.Â* I had a broken hand but could have made it home,
maybe. Double tap is a killer with a broken hand. That fracture was
fixed with a Ti plate -- made by Moots. Super fast and light.

I had an impossible time getting the stock tire off of my Dahon Speed
TR. Needed to call for a ride. I had no tire levers with me since
normally they are not necessary. I once bought some Performance "Forte"
700c tires and they were not possible to put on or take off without
levers. When you get the combination of wheels with "difficult" rims and
tires that may be a bit too small, it can require levers. I now have
pretty much switched to all Schwalbe tires and tubes and things are much
better.

The best tire levers I've found are the steel-core levers with plastic
coating. They don't break.
https://www.jensonusa.com/Foundation-305D-Steel-Tire-Lever-Set-Steel-Core-Tire-Lever-Set

Thanks, ordered a set. $2.50 and $10.00 delivered with shipping.....

On 2020-04-02 17:35, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/2/2020 3:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I wonder if we can keep this thread on-topic?

I noticed on a lot of bicycling forums, at bicycle shops and with
bicyclists at stops and/or coffee shops, complain about how hard it
is/was to get their tires mounted onto the rims. Getting the tire on
was so hard that they had to resort to using some sort of tire jack to
get the tire mounted.

#1. Is this super-tight tire/rim fit becoming more common?

#2. Do these bicyclists have to call for a ride if they puncture
whilst on a ride? Because they can't get their tire off the rim?

Sounds like a super-tight tire/rim fit might be a good reason to use
removeable valve cores and to carry a small bottle of tire sealant on
a ride.

Cheers


IMHO the tires have not changed[1] ...


Actually, they have.


... but rather many, all too damned many,
modern rims are deficient in design by having too small a heigh
difference from bead seat to center well. Compound that negligence with
both OEM and LBS who drop in a too-thick or too wide rim liner and yes,
it sucks.
This is clearly not what the brothers Michelin intended!

[1]some variance but IME brands vary more in suppleness than actual
size, stiff, rigid tires being unforgiving of underlying fit problems


I have Mavic rims from the 80's which unfortunately have a shallow
profile. Ok, only one is now left because rim brakes eat rims but I can
for sure say that many tires are nowadays undersized. Gatorskins were
among the worst for me to mount and get off where in the old days the
Vredesteins always went on and off with ease.

So I had to find a tire that isn't undersized in the beads and found
one, the Vittoria Zaffiro. It is also not overpriced like many others. I
always keep a stack of those handy, just in case they go "on allocation"
like toilet paper recently has.

If I had a choice I'd opt for MTB rims even on the road bike. Very deep
troughs and one can switch tires almost without any tire levers.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 1:09:12 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-04-02 17:35, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/2/2020 3:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I wonder if we can keep this thread on-topic?

I noticed on a lot of bicycling forums, at bicycle shops and with
bicyclists at stops and/or coffee shops, complain about how hard it
is/was to get their tires mounted onto the rims. Getting the tire on
was so hard that they had to resort to using some sort of tire jack to
get the tire mounted.

#1. Is this super-tight tire/rim fit becoming more common?

#2. Do these bicyclists have to call for a ride if they puncture
whilst on a ride? Because they can't get their tire off the rim?

Sounds like a super-tight tire/rim fit might be a good reason to use
removeable valve cores and to carry a small bottle of tire sealant on
a ride.

Cheers


IMHO the tires have not changed[1] ...


Actually, they have.


... but rather many, all too damned many,
modern rims are deficient in design by having too small a heigh
difference from bead seat to center well. Compound that negligence with
both OEM and LBS who drop in a too-thick or too wide rim liner and yes,
it sucks.
This is clearly not what the brothers Michelin intended!

[1]some variance but IME brands vary more in suppleness than actual
size, stiff, rigid tires being unforgiving of underlying fit problems


I have Mavic rims from the 80's which unfortunately have a shallow
profile. Ok, only one is now left because rim brakes eat rims but I can
for sure say that many tires are nowadays undersized. Gatorskins were
among the worst for me to mount and get off where in the old days the
Vredesteins always went on and off with ease.

So I had to find a tire that isn't undersized in the beads and found
one, the Vittoria Zaffiro. It is also not overpriced like many others. I
always keep a stack of those handy, just in case they go "on allocation"
like toilet paper recently has.

If I had a choice I'd opt for MTB rims even on the road bike. Very deep
troughs and one can switch tires almost without any tire levers.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

The original Vittoria Corsa G+ were great tires. Now they are called Corsa plus or something and they too are now almost impossible to mount.

jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 3:31:20 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
sms wrote:
On 4/2/2020 3:59 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

I have had a miserable time getting 4Seasons off a HED Ardennes tubeless
ready rim. They stick to the beadseats, and I think the HED sticky-tape
rim strip compounds the problem. You get a flat and sit there by the
side of the road wrestling with the tire like an over-glued tubular. You
can't even get it out of the beadseat to get a tire iron under the bead.
Time and crying makes it break loose.

Hopefully you learned your lesson about using tubeless and went back to
using tubes on those rims. Tubeless tires on bicycles are the answer to
a question that nobody asked (except racers with support vehicles
following them).

I've never taken an Uber or Lyft. That's for sissies. I once scootered
and rode one-legged for 15 miles after breaking a crank. My wife did
come and pick me up after I crashed with my son, but he called for the
ride. I had a broken hand but could have made it home, maybe. Double
tap is a killer with a broken hand. That fracture was fixed with a Ti
plate -- made by Moots. Super fast and light.

I had an impossible time getting the stock tire off of my Dahon Speed
TR. Needed to call for a ride. I had no tire levers with me since
normally they are not necessary. I once bought some Performance "Forte"
700c tires and they were not possible to put on or take off without
levers. When you get the combination of wheels with "difficult" rims and
tires that may be a bit too small, it can require levers. I now have
pretty much switched to all Schwalbe tires and tubes and things are much
better.





My guess is that Jay’s rims are tubeless ready but his tires are not
tubeless.

Correct. Tubeless ready was foisted upon me by HED. I use tubes.

-- Jay Beattie.


Figured. I don’t have much trouble with my HED wheels and Conti 4000s
tires. The Spec Pros I used before were easier to get on but the Contis
aren’t bad. Never tried the 4 seasons though.