Cylcling in Europe

I am posting this as a result of seeing Tom Crispin's post a few days ago on
urcm. It is at he bottom of this pile!

The bulk of this post has sat in my "drafts" file for days because my
intended brief response to Tom's post about his excellent trip to Paris (by
train) and return to London (by velo) -- which was only posted in urcm ---
well it just grew out of all proportion

So here is a post about cycling in Western Europe

before you dive in -- cycling in mainland Europe is fun, relaxing , and has
created lots of good memories. I confess that my experince of cycling in
England id just a tad different


I have copied and pasted and then re-edited the diatribe which i originally
drafted for a reply to Tom's post.

here goes!

"
I have cycled on several voies verte and cycle tracks in France and I agree
with.you (Tom) to a certain extent. There is a voi verte running some 70 kms
long
running from Givry (south of Beaune) nearly all the way to Macon Most of
the
route is utterly boring, excellent surface but follows an old railway route
and much of the route it is like ridng alond the bottom of a cutting with
trees and bushes both sides heming you in. There is also not a single place
on the whole
70 kms where there is a cafe/bar for refreshment and it avoids every
town,village and hamlet. -- unless you take an unsigned exit!

South of the Gironde down through the forests of Landes there are similar
cycle routes which past interminably along flat well surfaced paths with no
relief from the boredom. Mind you when I cycled to Satiago de Compostela in
2004 I was warned off these routes but the long Roman and Napoleonic roads
where nearly as bad. I just got my sightline done to a few meters in fromt
of me and pedal pushed for kms in a straight line -- then a kink in the
road follwed by another 20 kms in a straight line -- and even the villages
seemed to be void of residents -- apart from the mad French dogs that chase
me the length of thier gardens yapping ferociously.Dogs! the French ones(
and their owners) can be twice as bad as their English counterparts!

My experince on the Loire cycle routes was a bit different and generally
they were much more pleasant to use and generally went fromvillage to
village -- but many of them wandered all over the place and often would lead
you on a pointless detour bring you back on to the road you had left.
only a couple of kms away!

I have always used maps and cycled according to them. When a cycle route
looks to be good and goes he way I want to go i will use it. In France I
have often cycled along Routes Nationale which I have often found to be
excellent, safe and hassle free routes. for making kms when I need to get
on.
Going down the Rhone they were often virtually traffic free because there
was an motorway on both sides of the river and most trafiic was on them.

I have found that cycle routes in Germany are generally good -- many track
directly the road routes and so go in the direction that you want to go (
unlike Sustrans which dogleg off in all directions.).

But in all countries there is a tendancy for a designated cycle route to
disappear off in odd directions. I frequently use the Estabauer "Bikeline"
books but often abandon their designated route and ride on road when the
route doesn't suit where i want to go.

But then , despite planning during winter months I have never (what never!)
folloew a planned route yet

--
From
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom
www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
"Tom Crispin" wrote in message
...
For the first time I have a complete and accurate GPS log of my Paris
to London trip:
http://tinyurl.com/3bm9a7c from:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=...13797&t=h&z=16

10 cyclists, youngest 13 years, successfully completed the trip over 5
days.

The 40 mile Avenue Verte from Forges Les Eaux to Dieppe is often
regarded as Europe's best cycle path. It certainly is pristine. 3m
wide flat tarmac, with wide grass verges either side. However, it has
no character.

For sheer beauty and joy for a leisure ride, give me a good Sustrans
path anytime. The Cockoo Trail, Forest Row, the Worth Way, the
Waterlink Way. Nothing beats the English countryside, shaded woodland
with a sea of bluebells, woodpeckers drumming away and cuckoos
calling.

OK - so the surface might be less than pristine, but who needs to
charge along at 20mph when there is so much to enjoy?
--
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

On Tue, 3 May 2011 13:27:09 +0100, "Trevor A Panther"
wrote:

I am posting this as a result of seeing Tom Crispin's post a few days ago on
urcm. It is at he bottom of this pile!

The bulk of this post has sat in my "drafts" file for days because my
intended brief response to Tom's post about his excellent trip to Paris (by
train) and return to London (by velo) -- which was only posted in urcm ---
well it just grew out of all proportion

So here is a post about cycling in Western Europe

before you dive in -- cycling in mainland Europe is fun, relaxing , and has
created lots of good memories. I confess that my experince of cycling in
England id just a tad different

Could that be because in the UK your cycling is mostly utility cycling
and in Europe touring?

My recent experience is the motorists in Paris are worse than in
London, and the cycle route from Paris to Dieppe faster but less
interesting than the cycle route from Newhaven to London. Motorists in
rural France and rural England are equally courteous to cyclists on
country lanes.

Here we are on the Avenue Verte.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/railbuff/5679251087/
And here's me and Clare on the Cuckoo Trail.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/railbuff/5679261017/

I believe that both photos adequately represent (as well as any
snapshot may) the best of our cycling experiences in both countries.

Full slideshow he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/railbuf...29701208/show/

I have copied and pasted and then re-edited the diatribe which i originally
drafted for a reply to Tom's post.

here goes!

"
I have cycled on several voies verte and cycle tracks in France and I agree
with.you (Tom) to a certain extent. There is a voi verte running some 70 kms
long
running from Givry (south of Beaune) nearly all the way to Macon Most of
the
route is utterly boring, excellent surface but follows an old railway route
and much of the route it is like ridng alond the bottom of a cutting with
trees and bushes both sides heming you in. There is also not a single place
on the whole
70 kms where there is a cafe/bar for refreshment and it avoids every
town,village and hamlet. -- unless you take an unsigned exit!

South of the Gironde down through the forests of Landes there are similar
cycle routes which past interminably along flat well surfaced paths with no
relief from the boredom. Mind you when I cycled to Satiago de Compostela in
2004 I was warned off these routes but the long Roman and Napoleonic roads
where nearly as bad. I just got my sightline done to a few meters in fromt
of me and pedal pushed for kms in a straight line -- then a kink in the
road follwed by another 20 kms in a straight line -- and even the villages
seemed to be void of residents -- apart from the mad French dogs that chase
me the length of thier gardens yapping ferociously.Dogs! the French ones(
and their owners) can be twice as bad as their English counterparts!

My experince on the Loire cycle routes was a bit different and generally
they were much more pleasant to use and generally went fromvillage to
village -- but many of them wandered all over the place and often would lead
you on a pointless detour bring you back on to the road you had left.
only a couple of kms away!

I have cycled virtually the full length of the Loire Cycle Route
(Roanne to Nantes). I wholly agree with you - it does in places
meander more than the Loire. However, there are some delightful
traffic free sections.

The Loire is an exception. The whole of the Loire Valley is a UNESCO
world heritage site and apart from the massive Nuclear Power Station
complexes on its banks is protected from development. Even flood
defences are discrete.

I have always used maps and cycled according to them. When a cycle route
looks to be good and goes he way I want to go i will use it. In France I
have often cycled along Routes Nationale which I have often found to be
excellent, safe and hassle free routes. for making kms when I need to get
on.

Yes.

Going down the Rhone they were often virtually traffic free because there
was an motorway on both sides of the river and most trafiic was on them.

I have cycled the Rhone from its Glacier to Lyon. Again it makes an
excellent cycling route - especially the Swiss section

I have found that cycle routes in Germany are generally good -- many track
directly the road routes and so go in the direction that you want to go (
unlike Sustrans which dogleg off in all directions.).

The only significant cycling I have done in Germany is along the
Mosel, Rhine and Rhine to Marne Canal. Again this cycling was
excellent - though the Rhine a little dull. Also the Rhine cycle route
was poorly signed in the cities.

But in all countries there is a tendancy for a designated cycle route to
disappear off in odd directions. I frequently use the Estabauer "Bikeline"
books but often abandon their designated route and ride on road when the
route doesn't suit where i want to go.

But then , despite planning during winter months I have never (what never!)
folloew a planned route yet

You are right to post here, where people can respond without
censorship or fear of censorship. Thank you.

On 3 May, 14:27, "Trevor A Panther"
wrote:
I am posting this as a result of seeing Tom Crispin's post a few days ago on
urcm. It is at he bottom of this pile!

The bulk of this post has sat in my "drafts" file for days because my
intended brief response to Tom's post about his excellent trip to Paris (by
train) and return to London (by velo) -- which was only posted in urcm --- *
well it just grew out of all proportion

So here is a post about cycling in Western Europe

before you dive in *-- cycling in mainland Europe is fun, relaxing , and has
created lots of good memories. I confess that my experince of cycling in
England id just a tad different

I have copied and pasted and then re-edited the diatribe which i originally
drafted for a reply to Tom's post.

here goes!

"
I have cycled on several voies verte and cycle tracks in France and I *agree
with.you (Tom) to a certain extent. There is a voi verte running some 70 kms
long
running from Givry (south of Beaune) nearly all the way to Macon *Most of
the
route is utterly boring, excellent surface but follows an old railway route
and *much of the route it is like ridng alond the bottom of a cutting with
trees and bushes both sides heming you in. There is also not a single place
on the whole
70 kms where there is a cafe/bar *for refreshment and it avoids every
town,village and hamlet. -- unless you take an unsigned exit!

South of the Gironde down through the forests of Landes there are similar
cycle routes which past interminably along flat well surfaced paths with no
relief from the boredom. Mind you when I cycled to Satiago de Compostela in
2004 I was warned off these routes but the long Roman and Napoleonic roads
where nearly as bad. I just got my sightline done to a few meters in fromt
of me and pedal pushed for kms in a straight line *-- then a kink in the
road follwed by another 20 kms in a straight line -- and even the villages
seemed to be void of residents -- apart from the mad French dogs that chase
me the length of thier gardens yapping ferociously.Dogs! *the French ones(
and their owners) can be twice as bad as their English counterparts!

My experince on the Loire cycle routes was a bit different and generally
they were much more pleasant to use and generally went fromvillage to
village -- but many of them wandered all over the place and often would lead
you on a pointless detour bring you back on to the road you had left.
only a couple of kms away!

I have always used maps and cycled according to them. When a cycle route
looks to be good and goes he way I want to go i will use it. In France I
have often cycled along Routes Nationale *which I have often found to be
excellent, safe *and hassle free routes. for making kms when I need to get
on.
Going down the Rhone they were often virtually traffic free because there
was an motorway on both sides of the river *and most trafiic was on them.

I have found that cycle routes in Germany are generally good *-- many track
directly the road routes *and so go in the direction that you want to go (
unlike Sustrans which dogleg off in all directions.).

But in all countries there is a tendancy for a designated cycle route to
disappear off in odd directions. I frequently use the Estabauer "Bikeline"
books *but often abandon their designated route and ride on road when the
route doesn't suit where i want to go.

But then , despite planning during winter months I have never (what never!)
folloew a planned route yet

--
From
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdomwww.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk"Tom Crispin" wrote in message

...



For the first time I have a complete and accurate GPS log of my Paris
to London trip:
http://tinyurl.com/3bm9a7cfrom:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=...start=25&num=2...

10 cyclists, youngest 13 years, successfully completed the trip over 5
days.

The 40 mile Avenue Verte from Forges Les Eaux to Dieppe is often
regarded as Europe's best cycle path. It certainly is pristine. 3m
wide flat tarmac, with wide grass verges either side. However, it has
no character.

For sheer beauty and joy for a leisure ride, give me a good Sustrans
path anytime. The Cockoo Trail, Forest Row, the Worth Way, the
Waterlink Way. Nothing beats the English countryside, shaded woodland
with a sea of bluebells, woodpeckers drumming away and cuckoos
calling.

OK - so the surface might be less than pristine, but who needs to
charge along at 20mph when there is so much to enjoy?
--
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

On 3 May, 14:27, "Trevor A Panther"
wrote:
I am posting this as a result of seeing Tom Crispin's post a few days ago on
urcm. It is at he bottom of this pile!

The bulk of this post has sat in my "drafts" file for days because my
intended brief response to Tom's post about his excellent trip to Paris (by
train) and return to London (by velo) -- which was only posted in urcm --- *
well it just grew out of all proportion

So here is a post about cycling in Western Europe

before you dive in *-- cycling in mainland Europe is fun, relaxing , and has
created lots of good memories. I confess that my experince of cycling in
England id just a tad different

I have copied and pasted and then re-edited the diatribe which i originally
drafted for a reply to Tom's post.

here goes!

"
I have cycled on several voies verte and cycle tracks in France and I *agree
with.you (Tom) to a certain extent. There is a voi verte running some 70 kms
long
running from Givry (south of Beaune) nearly all the way to Macon *Most of
the
route is utterly boring, excellent surface but follows an old railway route
and *much of the route it is like ridng alond the bottom of a cutting with
trees and bushes both sides heming you in. There is also not a single place
on the whole
70 kms where there is a cafe/bar *for refreshment and it avoids every
town,village and hamlet. -- unless you take an unsigned exit!

South of the Gironde down through the forests of Landes there are similar
cycle routes which past interminably along flat well surfaced paths with no
relief from the boredom. Mind you when I cycled to Satiago de Compostela in
2004 I was warned off these routes but the long Roman and Napoleonic roads
where nearly as bad. I just got my sightline done to a few meters in fromt
of me and pedal pushed for kms in a straight line *-- then a kink in the
road follwed by another 20 kms in a straight line -- and even the villages
seemed to be void of residents -- apart from the mad French dogs that chase
me the length of thier gardens yapping ferociously.Dogs! *the French ones(
and their owners) can be twice as bad as their

There is no way of crossing the Landes by any means of transport other
than a plane without being bored to tears. Two minutes' look at a map
with some relief on it would tell you that. Trivial further research
would tell you that it is very thinly populated - until fairly
recently (in historical terms) it was a malaria-infested swamp, and
it's still not good for much except pine trees. You might just as well
go on a tour round the flow country and complain it's not the
Cotswolds.

The dogs, however, I do agree with: I can't understand how barking
dogs with no-one to hear them achieve very much: few of them seem
méchant enough to see off an intruder, despite the signs on the gate
post ( another oddity of rural France: amazingly grandiose gates on
very humble dwellings).

On May 3, 5:09*pm, Tom Crispin wrote:


My recent experience is the motorists in Paris are worse than in
London, and the cycle route from Paris to Dieppe faster but less
interesting than the cycle route from Newhaven to London. Motorists in
rural France and rural England are equally courteous to cyclists on
country lanes.


Nice to know that not all motorists develop horns when they get behind
the wheel! This will be a big surprise for Doug!

Oh I agree with your comment about "Landes". It is not an area in which I
would wish to cycle again -- but I was doing a cycling pilgrimage from my
front door to the cathedral at Santiago de Compostela that year -- and I
camped all the way down through England and France but in Spain I largely
used the pilgrims "refugios" -- which were often free or very inexpensive
( or "donativo"). I only camped 4 times in Spain!

Mind you I had 4 days in which I encountered blizzarding snow conditions for
a part of each day! And after excellent weather all the way to the Spanish
border, I probably had I dryish day in 3 or 4 as I crossed northern Spain.
One day I set off in snow wearing everything I had ( including socks over
my gloves) in the morning and that same afternoon I was in shorts and
shirtsleeves! The difference being several 100 metres lower in altitude
(from about 1600 m at 0800).

All part of the rich tapestry of cycling life!

--
From
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom
www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
"martynh" wrote in message
...
On 3 May, 14:27, "Trevor A Panther"
wrote:
I am posting this as a result of seeing Tom Crispin's post a few days ago
on
urcm. It is at he bottom of this pile!

The bulk of this post has sat in my "drafts" file for days because my
intended brief response to Tom's post about his excellent trip to Paris
(by
train) and return to London (by velo) -- which was only posted in urcm ---
well it just grew out of all proportion

So here is a post about cycling in Western Europe

before you dive in -- cycling in mainland Europe is fun, relaxing , and
has
created lots of good memories. I confess that my experince of cycling in
England id just a tad different

I have copied and pasted and then re-edited the diatribe which i
originally
drafted for a reply to Tom's post.

here goes!

"
I have cycled on several voies verte and cycle tracks in France and I
agree
with.you (Tom) to a certain extent. There is a voi verte running some 70
kms
long
running from Givry (south of Beaune) nearly all the way to Macon Most of
the
route is utterly boring, excellent surface but follows an old railway
route
and much of the route it is like ridng alond the bottom of a cutting with
trees and bushes both sides heming you in. There is also not a single
place
on the whole
70 kms where there is a cafe/bar for refreshment and it avoids every
town,village and hamlet. -- unless you take an unsigned exit!

South of the Gironde down through the forests of Landes there are similar
cycle routes which past interminably along flat well surfaced paths with
no
relief from the boredom. Mind you when I cycled to Satiago de Compostela
in
2004 I was warned off these routes but the long Roman and Napoleonic roads
where nearly as bad. I just got my sightline done to a few meters in fromt
of me and pedal pushed for kms in a straight line -- then a kink in the
road follwed by another 20 kms in a straight line -- and even the villages
seemed to be void of residents -- apart from the mad French dogs that
chase
me the length of thier gardens yapping ferociously.Dogs! the French ones(
and their owners) can be twice as bad as their

There is no way of crossing the Landes by any means of transport other
than a plane without being bored to tears. Two minutes' look at a map
with some relief on it would tell you that. Trivial further research
would tell you that it is very thinly populated - until fairly
recently (in historical terms) it was a malaria-infested swamp, and
it's still not good for much except pine trees. You might just as well
go on a tour round the flow country and complain it's not the
Cotswolds.

The dogs, however, I do agree with: I can't understand how barking
dogs with no-one to hear them achieve very much: few of them seem
méchant enough to see off an intruder, despite the signs on the gate
post ( another oddity of rural France: amazingly grandiose gates on
very humble dwellings).

Tom Crispin writes:

My recent experience is the motorists in Paris are worse than in
London,

In what way? I found Paris motorists to be no worse than in the rest of
France---whereas driving standards in London are generally quite poor
(around cyclists or not).

and the cycle route from Paris to Dieppe faster but less interesting
than the cycle route from Newhaven to London.

Pass. I don't use them in France for much the same reason I don't use
them in the UK; they don't appear on normal road atlases. I would like
to tour around the Netherlands (where my bicycle is from), but have so
far been put off by the need to have special cycling maps/ map data
sources.

Motorists in rural France and rural England are equally courteous to
cyclists on country lanes.

Maybe, but they do tend to overtake wider and hang much further back if
they are stuck behind you in France. I'm not sure whether that is
because of the strict liability or because cycling is their national
sport, but it does make cycling even more relaxing for me, as Trevor
says.

In France I have often cycled along Routes Nationale which I have
often found to be excellent, safe and hassle free routes. for making
kms when I need to get on.

Yes.

The RN designation is mostly a historical thing, though. The ones which
haven't been `upgraded' into autoroutes are indistinguishable from
normal departemental roads which just happen to join strategic places.
For much of RN1 between Paris and Calais, you wouldn't know it was a
Route Nationale if not for the private signage.

--
Mark

"Mark Williams" ] wrote in message
. ..
Tom Crispin writes:

My recent experience is the motorists in Paris are worse than in
London,

In what way? I found Paris motorists to be no worse than in the rest of
France---whereas driving standards in London are generally quite poor
(around cyclists or not).

and the cycle route from Paris to Dieppe faster but less interesting
than the cycle route from Newhaven to London.

Pass. I don't use them in France for much the same reason I don't use
them in the UK; they don't appear on normal road atlases. I would like
to tour around the Netherlands (where my bicycle is from), but have so
far been put off by the need to have special cycling maps/ map data
sources.

Motorists in rural France and rural England are equally courteous to
cyclists on country lanes.

Maybe, but they do tend to overtake wider and hang much further back if
they are stuck behind you in France. I'm not sure whether that is
because of the strict liability or because cycling is their national
sport, but it does make cycling even more relaxing for me, as Trevor
says.

In France I have often cycled along Routes Nationale which I have
often found to be excellent, safe and hassle free routes. for making
kms when I need to get on.

Yes.

The RN designation is mostly a historical thing, though. The ones which
haven't been `upgraded' into autoroutes are indistinguishable from
normal departemental roads which just happen to join strategic places.
For much of RN1 between Paris and Calais, you wouldn't know it was a
Route Nationale if not for the private signage.

--
Mark


mark

I have travelled throught the netherland just once "seriously" when I
followed the North Sea coastal route ( well i actually followed its general
direction) on my way to Berlin. My experience has shown that although there
are extensive cycle maps you actually don't really need them. There are
cycle routes which go just about everywhere and cycling on road is no
problem where there is no designated route. There really ais a diffeent
culture there and cyclists are everywhere and very much part of normal
traffic.

I was stopped only once in my travels and that was by a lady in a car who
was concerned that I was "lost". She said that the road iwas on was a fast
road ( but nothing like roads in UK) and that I would be better served
taking a nearby alternative ( which actually was better for me). We had a
short chat about cycling in UK as opposed to my experience in her country!

So I reckon that if you want to holiday in the Netherlands then just go and
enjoy it. In fact the only problem I had at all was when travelling, on a
holiday w/e, on a bike trail through a "nature Park" and that problem was
with "pelatons" of club cyclists speeding round bends and intersections with
no regard to other cyclists. They incurred the wrath of locals as well as
me!

--
From
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom
www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

On 8 May, 01:26, Mark Williams ]

The RN designation is mostly a historical thing, though. *The ones which
haven't been `upgraded' into autoroutes are indistinguishable from
normal departemental roads which just happen to join strategic places.
For much of RN1 between Paris and Calais, you wouldn't know it was a
Route Nationale if not for the private signage.

--
Mark
You don't know it's an RN because it mostly isn't one any more. Most
RNs, or large chunks of them, were delegated to departments in 2006
and renumbered (a very French victory of logic over convenience,
rendering millions of maps very much less useful). RN1 now exists as
three quite short fragments: the rest has become various D roads or
been converted into autoroute. The new D numbers sometimes bear some
resemblance to the old N number (eg the same, or the same with an
initial 4 or 9) and sometimes don't. A right mess.

On 8 May, 01:26, Mark Williams ] wrote:
Tom Crispin writes:
My recent experience is the motorists in Paris are worse than in
London,

In what way? *I found Paris motorists to be no worse than in the rest of
France---whereas driving standards in London are generally quite poor
(around cyclists or not).

and the cycle route from Paris to Dieppe faster but less interesting
than the cycle route from Newhaven to London.

Pass. *I don't use them in France for much the same reason I don't use
them in the UK; they don't appear on normal road atlases. *I would like
to tour around the Netherlands (where my bicycle is from), but have so
far been put off by the need to have special cycling maps/ map data
sources.

Motorists in rural France and rural England are equally courteous to
cyclists on country lanes.

Maybe, but they do tend to overtake wider and hang much further back if
they are stuck behind you in France. *I'm not sure whether that is
because of the strict liability or because cycling is their national
sport, but it does make cycling even more relaxing for me, as Trevor
says.


--
Mark

They don't usually overtake wide enough, in my recent experience,
actually to obey the code de la route (1.5m clearance in the country,
1m in town). Usually because they start the manoeuvre too late: they
are usually still moving out as they pass, and would give the legal
clearance to a notional cyclist 20m ahead of my actual position.

Or put another way: like most drivers everywhere, they are on auto-
pilot.