Habanero shows up curved stays

On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
... My friend Doug
has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It finally
cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to allow for the
use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS steel frames. Darn
shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne was, IIRC, made from
commercially pure titanium so that may be a factor- perhaps less
fracture resistance than some of the other Ti alloys in use?

Gads, he must have bought it used because they went out of production in '76. The thing is at least 40 years old. Not bad service.

You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then.

Perhaps they lacked the "complete machine shop" equipment needed to drill a hole
in a tube? ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:28:11 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote:
Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the
curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the
large curves ...


Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what
Andrew thought :-)


in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to
ride it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs
straight stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that
matter.


I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so
much more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect.
Those are between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are
equipped.

One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There
are a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some
alloys and grades are difficult to manufacture which might
preclude the use as thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier
lists 11 different grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for
aerospace and sports.

One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and
label each of them, honestly, as Titanium.


Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect
that he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So
their Titanium seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't
surprise me because cheating there would very quickly destroy a
reputation and then the business.

The chief issue is whether the welding process is done correctly. If
the weld is contaminated, it is more likely to fail. And like other
materials, stress risers in the design must be avoided. My friend
Doug has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It
finally cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to
allow for the use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS
steel frames. Darn shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne
was, IIRC, made from commercially pure titanium so that may be a
factor- perhaps less fracture resistance than some of the other Ti
alloys in use?

Gads, he must have bought it used because they went out of production
in '76. The thing is at least 40 years old. Not bad service.

It didn't appear used; it was a job lot of bikes that appeared to have
been in a bike shop that burned down- a bunch of 70s bikes, mostly
Italian. Some of them had some scorched paint, melted saddles and cable
housing, etc. Our guess was that it was an insurance salvage that had
been sitting forgotten in a warehouse for a decade or two. But yeah, he
got great service out of that bike.

You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid
because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little
snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in
the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT
lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems
like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable
guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't
know fashion back then.

It seemed lke a weird solution at the time, too. Braze-ons for shift
levers, cable stops, etc., were well known by then and might have been
cheaper than the tube forming.

On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 11:37:37 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
... My friend Doug
has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It finally
cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to allow for the
use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS steel frames. Darn
shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne was, IIRC, made from
commercially pure titanium so that may be a factor- perhaps less
fracture resistance than some of the other Ti alloys in use?

Gads, he must have bought it used because they went out of production in '76. The thing is at least 40 years old. Not bad service.

You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then.

Perhaps they lacked the "complete machine shop" equipment needed to drill a hole
in a tube? ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

They would also need the advanced technology to build something futuristic like this: http://tinyurl.com/l5zqd7l or this http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/~2cAAO...xy/s-l1600.jpg

I think the purpose of some olde tyme products was to make things difficult.. Why did it take so long to enlarge the caps on water bottles? Old school water bottles were so hard to clean, and the new Camelback bottles are so much easier to use, too. One way valves have been around forever. Gluing tires on a rim? Do you glue your car tires on the rim? Pffff.

I remember building a pair of wheels for a guy with a Titan in Los Gatos. He wanted tied and soldered and wanted to make sure the hub labels read correctly -- so the "Campagnolo" was not upside down or inside out. I thought, "is this a trick question?" You can flip the front wheel, and there are no options for the rear wheel. I just nodded my head. Hell, I was the low-cost option and not an artiste. I actually did make sure that the spokes radiated correctly front and rear just so I didn't ruin the whole Titan feng shui thing -- although you probably couldn't read "Campagnolo" through the valve stem hole, which is the pinnacle of anal wheel building. If it were that big of a deal and I miss-oriented the hub, I suppose I could always drill a viewing hole. Look . . . Campagnolo! It's the best!

-- Jay Beattie.

On 3/31/2017 3:04 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:28:11 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote:
Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the
curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the
large curves ...


Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what
Andrew thought :-)


in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to
ride it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs
straight stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that
matter.


I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so
much more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect.
Those are between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are
equipped.

One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There
are a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some
alloys and grades are difficult to manufacture which might
preclude the use as thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier
lists 11 different grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for
aerospace and sports.

One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and
label each of them, honestly, as Titanium.


Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect
that he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So
their Titanium seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't
surprise me because cheating there would very quickly destroy a
reputation and then the business.

The chief issue is whether the welding process is done correctly. If
the weld is contaminated, it is more likely to fail. And like other
materials, stress risers in the design must be avoided. My friend
Doug has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It
finally cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to
allow for the use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS
steel frames. Darn shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne
was, IIRC, made from commercially pure titanium so that may be a
factor- perhaps less fracture resistance than some of the other Ti
alloys in use?

Gads, he must have bought it used because they went out of production
in '76. The thing is at least 40 years old. Not bad service.

It didn't appear used; it was a job lot of bikes that appeared to have
been in a bike shop that burned down- a bunch of 70s bikes, mostly
Italian. Some of them had some scorched paint, melted saddles and cable
housing, etc. Our guess was that it was an insurance salvage that had
been sitting forgotten in a warehouse for a decade or two. But yeah, he
got great service out of that bike.

You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid
because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little
snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in
the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT
lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems
like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable
guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't
know fashion back then.

It seemed lke a weird solution at the time, too. Braze-ons for shift
levers, cable stops, etc., were well known by then and might have been
cheaper than the tube forming.


Odd that Teledyne supplied 28.6mm top tube clips[1] but then
necked the downtube from 31.8mm to 28.6. Shortly thereafter
several manufacturers supplied oversized hardware for shift
levers on alternate material frames.

[1]This was back in the pre-ziptie world. We had French
aluminum cable bands (slip through slot, fold back) and
Terry's clips (some of which were elegantly designed) but
zipties hadn't made the leap to bicycles.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote:
Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the
curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the large
curves ...


Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what Andrew
thought :-)


in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to
ride it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs
straight stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that matter.


I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so much
more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect. Those are
between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are equipped.

One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There are
a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some alloys and
grades are difficult to manufacture which might preclude the use as
thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier lists 11 different
grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for aerospace and sports.

One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and label
each of them, honestly, as Titanium.


Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect that
he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So their Titanium
seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't surprise me because
cheating there would very quickly destroy a reputation and then the
business.

Unless it is some sort of mythical Titanium a steel bike would have
been just as strong, and likely stronger.
4130 steel 560 0 675 MPa Titanium 344 MPa...

I had a look at your Bikes Direct site and nowhere could I find a
reference to the specific Titanium alloy that their bikes are made
from. I would comment that after striping off the somewhat hysterical
sales pitch the bikes look surprisingly like those offered on Alibaba
at a noticeably cheaper price.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:43:01 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote:
Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the
curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the large
curves ...


Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what
Andrew thought :-)


in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to ride
it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs straight
stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that matter.


I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so much
more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect. Those are
between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are equipped.

One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There are
a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some alloys and
grades are difficult to manufacture which might preclude the use as
thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier lists 11 different
grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for aerospace and sports.

One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and label
each of them, honestly, as Titanium.


Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect
that he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So their
Titanium seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't surprise me
because cheating there would very quickly destroy a reputation and
then the business.

The chief issue is whether the welding process is done correctly. If the
weld is contaminated, it is more likely to fail.

I can't comment on what a specific manufacturer has done but my
experience (certified titanium 1972) is that people who do this for a
living are pretty careful about the welds. And, state of the art
welding isn't partially difficult, nor overly costly. to do properly.
Very similar to welding stainless actually :-)

And like other
materials, stress risers in the design must be avoided. My friend Doug
has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It finally
cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to allow for the
use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS steel frames. Darn
shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne was, IIRC, made from
commercially pure titanium so that may be a factor- perhaps less
fracture resistance than some of the other Ti alloys in use?

Titanium can be silver brazed. Perhaps the down tube could have been
repaired by sleeving.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/31/2017 4:25 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 11:37:37 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then.

Perhaps they lacked the "complete machine shop" equipment needed to drill a hole
in a tube? ;-)

They would also need the advanced technology to build something futuristic like this: http://tinyurl.com/l5zqd7l

Whoa! That's outer space alien technology!

I think the purpose of some olde tyme products was to make things difficult. Why did it take so long to enlarge the caps on water bottles?

I think that in the olden days (e.g. the 1970s) there was a lot more
"design" done by just copying tradition. I suppose most of us here have
anticipated future products by saying "Why doesn't anybody make..."
about some perfectly obvious change. I assume component engineers had
some of the same thoughts, but decided (or were told) "This is the way
it's always been done."

I remember talking to my bike shop buddies in the 1970s, saying someone
should come out with special tooth profiles on rear cogs to make
shifting easier. Eventually Shimano came out with twisted teeth, then
teeth individually designed to aid the chain transfer between cogs.

I remember building a pair of wheels for a guy with a Titan in Los Gatos. He wanted tied and soldered and wanted to make sure the hub labels read correctly -- so the "Campagnolo" was not upside down or inside out. I thought, "is this a trick question?" You can flip the front wheel, and there are no options for the rear wheel. I just nodded my head. Hell, I was the low-cost option and not an artiste. I actually did make sure that the spokes radiated correctly front and rear just so I didn't ruin the whole Titan feng shui thing...

OK, I don't know about how spokes are supposed to radiate, whatever that
means. I've always made sure they were parallel aside the valve hole,
and I keep the pulling spokes to the inside of the rear hub. What else
is there?


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:04:19 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:28:11 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote:
Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the
curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the
large curves ...


Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what
Andrew thought :-)


in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to
ride it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs
straight stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that
matter.


I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so
much more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect.
Those are between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are
equipped.

One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There
are a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some
alloys and grades are difficult to manufacture which might
preclude the use as thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier
lists 11 different grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for
aerospace and sports.

One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and
label each of them, honestly, as Titanium.


Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect
that he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So
their Titanium seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't
surprise me because cheating there would very quickly destroy a
reputation and then the business.

The chief issue is whether the welding process is done correctly. If
the weld is contaminated, it is more likely to fail. And like other
materials, stress risers in the design must be avoided. My friend
Doug has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It
finally cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to
allow for the use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS
steel frames. Darn shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne
was, IIRC, made from commercially pure titanium so that may be a
factor- perhaps less fracture resistance than some of the other Ti
alloys in use?

Gads, he must have bought it used because they went out of production
in '76. The thing is at least 40 years old. Not bad service.

It didn't appear used; it was a job lot of bikes that appeared to have
been in a bike shop that burned down- a bunch of 70s bikes, mostly
Italian. Some of them had some scorched paint, melted saddles and cable
housing, etc. Our guess was that it was an insurance salvage that had
been sitting forgotten in a warehouse for a decade or two. But yeah, he
got great service out of that bike.

You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid
because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little
snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in
the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT
lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems
like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable
guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't
know fashion back then.

It seemed lke a weird solution at the time, too. Braze-ons for shift
levers, cable stops, etc., were well known by then and might have been
cheaper than the tube forming.

Was the tube actually necked down? Or was it a piece of smaller
diameter tube inserted into the larger down tube? The seat tube/top
tube junction is obviously some sort of sleeved joint and I could see
an advantage to welding a toptube/headtube sort of assemble if some
sort of inert atmosphere box was being used for welding.

I would add that when I certified on Titanium in 1972 the test tags
were welded in an inert atmosphere box.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/31/2017 5:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
We had French aluminum cable
bands (slip through slot, fold back) and Terry's clips (some of which
were elegantly designed) but zipties hadn't made the leap to bicycles.

What were (or are) the elegantly designed Terry clips? Is that Georgena
Terry of Terry Bicycles?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/31/2017 8:24 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/31/2017 4:25 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 11:37:37 AM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, jbeattie
wrote:

You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is
so stupid because they could have routed the cable under
the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume
it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have
specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever
boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps
seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike.
Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte
finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then.

Perhaps they lacked the "complete machine shop" equipment
needed to drill a hole
in a tube? ;-)

They would also need the advanced technology to build
something futuristic like this: http://tinyurl.com/l5zqd7l

Whoa! That's outer space alien technology!

I think the purpose of some olde tyme products was to make
things difficult. Why did it take so long to enlarge the
caps on water bottles?

I think that in the olden days (e.g. the 1970s) there was a
lot more "design" done by just copying tradition. I suppose
most of us here have anticipated future products by saying
"Why doesn't anybody make..." about some perfectly obvious
change. I assume component engineers had some of the same
thoughts, but decided (or were told) "This is the way it's
always been done."

I remember talking to my bike shop buddies in the 1970s,
saying someone should come out with special tooth profiles
on rear cogs to make shifting easier. Eventually Shimano
came out with twisted teeth, then teeth individually
designed to aid the chain transfer between cogs.

I remember building a pair of wheels for a guy with a
Titan in Los Gatos. He wanted tied and soldered and
wanted to make sure the hub labels read correctly -- so
the "Campagnolo" was not upside down or inside out. I
thought, "is this a trick question?" You can flip the
front wheel, and there are no options for the rear wheel.
I just nodded my head. Hell, I was the low-cost option and
not an artiste. I actually did make sure that the spokes
radiated correctly front and rear just so I didn't ruin
the whole Titan feng shui thing...

OK, I don't know about how spokes are supposed to radiate,
whatever that means. I've always made sure they were
parallel aside the valve hole, and I keep the pulling spokes
to the inside of the rear hub. What else is there?



bottles.
Coloral bottles had big tops. Then we changed to TA and REG
bottles with smaller tops and sippy nipples. Now we have
even bigger tops. I referenced history of skirt lengths earlier.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971