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Getting into and out of streamliner recumbents



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 14th 17, 11:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DougC
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Posts: 1,276
Default Getting into and out of streamliner recumbents

On 4/14/2017 3:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/14/2017 3:07 PM, DougC wrote:
On 4/14/2017 12:44 PM, wrote:
Interestingly enough a normal recumbent three wheeler is hard to get
on and off of perhaps the two wheelers are easier. But I can hardly
picture how you would get on and off of those streamlined ones.

But I think that they are a good idea. Now only would they give you
additional speed (a friend of mine who rides a standard two wheel
recumbent says that it's reasonably easy for him to ride at 40) but
also protection from the weather. Though the idea of windshield
wipers for fully enclosed models appears to be somewhat daunting.

Another thing is that you could have the streamliner painted a bright
color to make it a lot more visible than a non-covered version.

Velo windshields fog up on the inside surface, in the rain. The
windshields flip up and end up being just a visor in rainy weather.

The racing 2-wheel streamliners can't be used solo at all, since the
shells are totally enclosed and are taped shut after the rider is inside.

So far the /only/ 2-wheel streamliners I've heard of being sold for
street use is the Peregrin-on-Birk
http://speedbikes.ch/en/peregrin-on-a-birk/
it is built very nice but the typical delivered price is $30K - $35K.

If you get a long-wheelbase recumbent and add a front fairing and
bodysock, you can get most of the aero gains of a hard shell with very
little cost and weight added. They look dorky but a decent job can add
5-7 mph to your flat-ground cruising speeds, assuming you have the
gearing for that.


I've wondered how stable those things are in gusting crosswinds. Any idea?



Which thing are you asking about?

The aversion to crosswinds from passing vehicles seems to be the main
reason that nobody made a 2-wheel street streamliner until Speedbikes did.

Also with velos (that are almost always tadpole trikes): they're a lot
more popular in Euro-land, and they make it much more easy to ride
comfortably in sub-freezing weather. If the pavement has a bit of snow
or ice on it, you can still safely ride a trike but not with a
2-wheeler. So that is another reason.

The body socks tend to have some give with crosswinds. Most people who
go this route just buy the front fairing already made and add the body
sock rear. A few people have built their own front fairings just for
body sock use and it can work a lot better if it extends nearly down to
the ground.

Velomobiles and tadpole trikes do tend to have stability issues at
times. The current trend is to use tadpole trikes that have 33%/33%/33%
weight distribution per wheel. If they suffer a rear flat tire at high
speeds, slowing to a stop without crashing can be very challenging.
Velos (with their big noses that stick out well in front of the front
axles) seem to be particularly susceptible to this problem.
Delta-configuration trikes and velos don't seem to have it, but are
comparatively rare in the high-performance market.
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  #12  
Old April 15th 17, 01:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Getting into and out of streamliner recumbents

On 4/14/2017 6:10 PM, DougC wrote:
On 4/14/2017 3:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/14/2017 3:07 PM, DougC wrote:
On 4/14/2017 12:44 PM, wrote:
Interestingly enough a normal recumbent three wheeler is hard to get
on and off of perhaps the two wheelers are easier. But I can hardly
picture how you would get on and off of those streamlined ones.

But I think that they are a good idea. Now only would they give you
additional speed (a friend of mine who rides a standard two wheel
recumbent says that it's reasonably easy for him to ride at 40) but
also protection from the weather. Though the idea of windshield
wipers for fully enclosed models appears to be somewhat daunting.

Another thing is that you could have the streamliner painted a bright
color to make it a lot more visible than a non-covered version.

Velo windshields fog up on the inside surface, in the rain. The
windshields flip up and end up being just a visor in rainy weather.

The racing 2-wheel streamliners can't be used solo at all, since the
shells are totally enclosed and are taped shut after the rider is
inside.

So far the /only/ 2-wheel streamliners I've heard of being sold for
street use is the Peregrin-on-Birk
http://speedbikes.ch/en/peregrin-on-a-birk/
it is built very nice but the typical delivered price is $30K - $35K.

If you get a long-wheelbase recumbent and add a front fairing and
bodysock, you can get most of the aero gains of a hard shell with very
little cost and weight added. They look dorky but a decent job can add
5-7 mph to your flat-ground cruising speeds, assuming you have the
gearing for that.


I've wondered how stable those things are in gusting crosswinds. Any
idea?



Which thing are you asking about?


I was asking about two-wheel streamliners, like the Peregrin.

Years ago, we briefly had a club member who rode a recumbent, to which
he had fitted a homemade full fairing. It was a pretty crude,
square-edged thing made (I think) of Coroplast, and he was a somewhat
odd guy.

Anyway, as we rode together on one invitational ride I was chatting with
him, asking questions about his bike. When I asked "Do crosswinds have
a bad effect on it?" or something similar, he got a bit irritated and
didn't answer.

The aversion to crosswinds from passing vehicles seems to be the main
reason that nobody made a 2-wheel street streamliner until Speedbikes did.

Also with velos (that are almost always tadpole trikes): they're a lot
more popular in Euro-land, and they make it much more easy to ride
comfortably in sub-freezing weather. If the pavement has a bit of snow
or ice on it, you can still safely ride a trike but not with a
2-wheeler. So that is another reason.

The body socks tend to have some give with crosswinds. Most people who
go this route just buy the front fairing already made and add the body
sock rear. A few people have built their own front fairings just for
body sock use and it can work a lot better if it extends nearly down to
the ground.

Velomobiles and tadpole trikes do tend to have stability issues at
times. The current trend is to use tadpole trikes that have 33%/33%/33%
weight distribution per wheel. If they suffer a rear flat tire at high
speeds, slowing to a stop without crashing can be very challenging.
Velos (with their big noses that stick out well in front of the front
axles) seem to be particularly susceptible to this problem.
Delta-configuration trikes and velos don't seem to have it, but are
comparatively rare in the high-performance market.


The problem I've heard about with Deltas (vs. Tadpoles) is that if you
overcook the entrance to a turn, the tendency to brake and turn
simultaneously can get you in trouble, throwing weight too far forward
(so to speak). Also, I guess it's easier and cheaper to design two
wheel steering instead of two wheel power transmission, which requires a
differential gear.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #13  
Old April 17th 17, 01:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,345
Default Getting into and out of streamliner recumbents

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 12:22:34 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 3:07:49 PM UTC-4, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 4/14/2017 12:44 PM, wrote:
Interestingly enough a normal recumbent three wheeler is hard to get on and off of perhaps the two wheelers are easier. But I can hardly picture how you would get on and off of those streamlined ones.

But I think that they are a good idea. Now only would they give you additional speed (a friend of mine who rides a standard two wheel recumbent says that it's reasonably easy for him to ride at 40) but also protection from the weather. Though the idea of windshield wipers for fully enclosed models appears to be somewhat daunting.

Another thing is that you could have the streamliner painted a bright color to make it a lot more visible than a non-covered version.

Velo windshields fog up on the inside surface, in the rain. The
windshields flip up and end up being just a visor in rainy weather.

The racing 2-wheel streamliners can't be used solo at all, since the
shells are totally enclosed and are taped shut after the rider is inside.

So far the /only/ 2-wheel streamliners I've heard of being sold for
street use is the Peregrin-on-Birk
http://speedbikes.ch/en/peregrin-on-a-birk/
it is built very nice but the typical delivered price is $30K - $35K.

If you get a long-wheelbase recumbent and add a front fairing and
bodysock, you can get most of the aero gains of a hard shell with very
little cost and weight added. They look dorky but a decent job can add
5-7 mph to your flat-ground cruising speeds, assuming you have the
gearing for that.


I'm surprised that noone makes a streamliner with a sliding rear part of the body. Slidethe body rerarward to get in and then pull it forward when ready to pedal away. It'd be much like the sliding canopy on a WW2 fighter plane Such as the P-40, the Hurrican or the Yak-3.

Cheers


Which is what I've been thinking about.
  #14  
Old April 17th 17, 01:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Getting into and out of streamliner recumbents

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 1:48:53 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/14/2017 3:07 PM, DougC wrote:
On 4/14/2017 12:44 PM, wrote:
Interestingly enough a normal recumbent three wheeler is hard to get
on and off of perhaps the two wheelers are easier. But I can hardly
picture how you would get on and off of those streamlined ones.

But I think that they are a good idea. Now only would they give you
additional speed (a friend of mine who rides a standard two wheel
recumbent says that it's reasonably easy for him to ride at 40) but
also protection from the weather. Though the idea of windshield wipers
for fully enclosed models appears to be somewhat daunting.

Another thing is that you could have the streamliner painted a bright
color to make it a lot more visible than a non-covered version.

Velo windshields fog up on the inside surface, in the rain. The
windshields flip up and end up being just a visor in rainy weather.

The racing 2-wheel streamliners can't be used solo at all, since the
shells are totally enclosed and are taped shut after the rider is inside.

So far the /only/ 2-wheel streamliners I've heard of being sold for
street use is the Peregrin-on-Birk
http://speedbikes.ch/en/peregrin-on-a-birk/
it is built very nice but the typical delivered price is $30K - $35K.

If you get a long-wheelbase recumbent and add a front fairing and
bodysock, you can get most of the aero gains of a hard shell with very
little cost and weight added. They look dorky but a decent job can add
5-7 mph to your flat-ground cruising speeds, assuming you have the
gearing for that.


I've wondered how stable those things are in gusting crosswinds. Any idea?


The designs are so varied that you can't say anything. The short wheelbase streamliners seem to be pretty unsteady but the longer wheelbase one, particularly with some suspension are pretty good from all accounts.
  #15  
Old April 17th 17, 11:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DougC
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,276
Default Getting into and out of streamliner recumbents

On 4/14/2017 2:54 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 3:32:19 PM UTC-4, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 4/14/2017 2:22 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I'm surprised that noone makes a streamliner with a sliding rear part of the body. Slidethe body rerarward to get in and then pull it forward when ready to pedal away. It'd be much like the sliding canopy on a WW2 fighter plane Such as the P-40, the Hurrican or the Yak-3.

Cheers


Many home-builders have tried, but it ends up being too heavy. Also,
having big airplane-style canopy windows means you boil in sunny/warm
weather.

There is also occasionally, a commercial builder offering tadpole trike
(2-wheels in front) bodies where the whole thing flips up (on either a
front-end or rear-end hinge) to enter and exit. These body shells end up
being very flimsy compared to a good velomobile, and much heavier besides.

When trying to build bicycle bodies--especially for practical use--the
main enemy is weight. All the main velomobile manufacturers now have an
all-carbon-fiber monocoque model as their top offering, because despite
being expensive it ends up being less weight than any other method.


I did NOT mean for the entire thing to be enclosed. I was thinking that the body shell would be in two halves a fixed forward area and a sliding rear area. the seat would be fixed to the front portion of the frame and the shell behind the seat and at the side would be able to be slid rearwards for entry and then easily slid forward to close it. That'd ba a heck of a lot easier to do than whatthe video showed of fixing a fabric cover. With a sliding shell you could even start pedalling and THEN pull the rear part of the shell forward. Plus the shell would add protection to the person inside in the event of a fall or crash.

Cheers


Yea but it has the same problem--lack of stiffness.
Any time you have a big section of the shell movable, then that whole
section cannot contribute to the overall stiffness. So that's why all
the higher-end velomobiles now use monocoque carbon-fiber bodies.
  #16  
Old April 17th 17, 07:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Getting into and out of streamliner recumbents

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 3:19:05 AM UTC-7, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 4/14/2017 2:54 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 3:32:19 PM UTC-4, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 4/14/2017 2:22 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I'm surprised that noone makes a streamliner with a sliding rear part of the body. Slidethe body rerarward to get in and then pull it forward when ready to pedal away. It'd be much like the sliding canopy on a WW2 fighter plane Such as the P-40, the Hurrican or the Yak-3.

Cheers


Many home-builders have tried, but it ends up being too heavy. Also,
having big airplane-style canopy windows means you boil in sunny/warm
weather.

There is also occasionally, a commercial builder offering tadpole trike
(2-wheels in front) bodies where the whole thing flips up (on either a
front-end or rear-end hinge) to enter and exit. These body shells end up
being very flimsy compared to a good velomobile, and much heavier besides.

When trying to build bicycle bodies--especially for practical use--the
main enemy is weight. All the main velomobile manufacturers now have an
all-carbon-fiber monocoque model as their top offering, because despite
being expensive it ends up being less weight than any other method.


I did NOT mean for the entire thing to be enclosed. I was thinking that the body shell would be in two halves a fixed forward area and a sliding rear area. the seat would be fixed to the front portion of the frame and the shell behind the seat and at the side would be able to be slid rearwards for entry and then easily slid forward to close it. That'd ba a heck of a lot easier to do than whatthe video showed of fixing a fabric cover. With a sliding shell you could even start pedalling and THEN pull the rear part of the shell forward. Plus the shell would add protection to the person inside in the event of a fall or crash.

Cheers


Yea but it has the same problem--lack of stiffness.
Any time you have a big section of the shell movable, then that whole
section cannot contribute to the overall stiffness. So that's why all
the higher-end velomobiles now use monocoque carbon-fiber bodies.


Now that is a rediculous statement. The entire bottom half of the shell should be reinforced carbon fiber with at least twice the stability of a normal CF bike.
  #17  
Old April 17th 17, 07:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Getting into and out of streamliner recumbents

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 11:01:04 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 3:19:05 AM UTC-7, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 4/14/2017 2:54 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 3:32:19 PM UTC-4, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 4/14/2017 2:22 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I'm surprised that noone makes a streamliner with a sliding rear part of the body. Slidethe body rerarward to get in and then pull it forward when ready to pedal away. It'd be much like the sliding canopy on a WW2 fighter plane Such as the P-40, the Hurrican or the Yak-3.

Cheers


Many home-builders have tried, but it ends up being too heavy. Also,
having big airplane-style canopy windows means you boil in sunny/warm
weather.

There is also occasionally, a commercial builder offering tadpole trike
(2-wheels in front) bodies where the whole thing flips up (on either a
front-end or rear-end hinge) to enter and exit. These body shells end up
being very flimsy compared to a good velomobile, and much heavier besides.

When trying to build bicycle bodies--especially for practical use--the
main enemy is weight. All the main velomobile manufacturers now have an
all-carbon-fiber monocoque model as their top offering, because despite
being expensive it ends up being less weight than any other method.

I did NOT mean for the entire thing to be enclosed. I was thinking that the body shell would be in two halves a fixed forward area and a sliding rear area. the seat would be fixed to the front portion of the frame and the shell behind the seat and at the side would be able to be slid rearwards for entry and then easily slid forward to close it. That'd ba a heck of a lot easier to do than whatthe video showed of fixing a fabric cover. With a sliding shell you could even start pedalling and THEN pull the rear part of the shell forward. Plus the shell would add protection to the person inside in the event of a fall or crash.

Cheers


Yea but it has the same problem--lack of stiffness.
Any time you have a big section of the shell movable, then that whole
section cannot contribute to the overall stiffness. So that's why all
the higher-end velomobiles now use monocoque carbon-fiber bodies.


Now that is a rediculous statement. The entire bottom half of the shell should be reinforced carbon fiber with at least twice the stability of a normal CF bike.


Doug - my plan would be to build the bottom half and develop it to ride well without the top half. Then to build the front top half that would attach in some manner that both strengthened and allowed the front to come off so that you could service the drive mechanism and the wheels. Then the same with the rear quarter and then the cockpit cover.

Though this is maybe just a idea at this point. The streamliners I have seen on the Internet are built around more or less normal recumbents so you have twice the necessary weight and re-enforcement.
  #18  
Old April 17th 17, 09:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Getting into and out of streamliner recumbents

On 2017-04-17 11:06, wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 11:01:04 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 3:19:05 AM UTC-7, Doug Cimperman
wrote:
On 4/14/2017 2:54 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 3:32:19 PM UTC-4, Doug Cimperman
wrote:
On 4/14/2017 2:22 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I'm surprised that noone makes a streamliner with a sliding
rear part of the body. Slidethe body rerarward to get in
and then pull it forward when ready to pedal away. It'd be
much like the sliding canopy on a WW2 fighter plane Such as
the P-40, the Hurrican or the Yak-3.

Cheers


Many home-builders have tried, but it ends up being too
heavy. Also, having big airplane-style canopy windows means
you boil in sunny/warm weather.

There is also occasionally, a commercial builder offering
tadpole trike (2-wheels in front) bodies where the whole
thing flips up (on either a front-end or rear-end hinge) to
enter and exit. These body shells end up being very flimsy
compared to a good velomobile, and much heavier besides.

When trying to build bicycle bodies--especially for practical
use--the main enemy is weight. All the main velomobile
manufacturers now have an all-carbon-fiber monocoque model as
their top offering, because despite being expensive it ends
up being less weight than any other method.

I did NOT mean for the entire thing to be enclosed. I was
thinking that the body shell would be in two halves a fixed
forward area and a sliding rear area. the seat would be fixed
to the front portion of the frame and the shell behind the seat
and at the side would be able to be slid rearwards for entry
and then easily slid forward to close it. That'd ba a heck of a
lot easier to do than whatthe video showed of fixing a fabric
cover. With a sliding shell you could even start pedalling and
THEN pull the rear part of the shell forward. Plus the shell
would add protection to the person inside in the event of a
fall or crash.

Cheers


Yea but it has the same problem--lack of stiffness. Any time you
have a big section of the shell movable, then that whole section
cannot contribute to the overall stiffness. So that's why all the
higher-end velomobiles now use monocoque carbon-fiber bodies.


Now that is a rediculous statement. The entire bottom half of the
shell should be reinforced carbon fiber with at least twice the
stability of a normal CF bike.


Doug - my plan would be to build the bottom half and develop it to
ride well without the top half. Then to build the front top half that
would attach in some manner that both strengthened and allowed the
front to come off so that you could service the drive mechanism and
the wheels. Then the same with the rear quarter and then the cockpit
cover.


If you do that make sure the bike can be ridden with the cockpit cover
retracted. I can't imagine it to be fun riding an enclosed "rolling
Zeppelin" when it is 105F while the sweat drops pool up in its bottom.
Unless they had a li'l "A/C" button.


Though this is maybe just a idea at this point. The streamliners I
have seen on the Internet are built around more or less normal
recumbents so you have twice the necessary weight and
re-enforcement.


I have seen some on the bike trails that just have a clear plastic
deflector at the front. It is aerodynamically shaped but I don't know
how close that ride will come to a real streamliner in performance.
Probably not very but the rider won't sweat so much in summer so will
have more available energy.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #19  
Old April 17th 17, 10:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,424
Default Getting into and out of streamliner recumbents

On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 5:43:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 1:48:53 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/14/2017 3:07 PM, DougC wrote:
On 4/14/2017 12:44 PM, wrote:
Interestingly enough a normal recumbent three wheeler is hard to get
on and off of perhaps the two wheelers are easier. But I can hardly
picture how you would get on and off of those streamlined ones.

But I think that they are a good idea. Now only would they give you
additional speed (a friend of mine who rides a standard two wheel
recumbent says that it's reasonably easy for him to ride at 40) but
also protection from the weather. Though the idea of windshield wipers
for fully enclosed models appears to be somewhat daunting.

Another thing is that you could have the streamliner painted a bright
color to make it a lot more visible than a non-covered version.

Velo windshields fog up on the inside surface, in the rain. The
windshields flip up and end up being just a visor in rainy weather.

The racing 2-wheel streamliners can't be used solo at all, since the
shells are totally enclosed and are taped shut after the rider is inside.

So far the /only/ 2-wheel streamliners I've heard of being sold for
street use is the Peregrin-on-Birk
http://speedbikes.ch/en/peregrin-on-a-birk/
it is built very nice but the typical delivered price is $30K - $35K.

If you get a long-wheelbase recumbent and add a front fairing and
bodysock, you can get most of the aero gains of a hard shell with very
little cost and weight added. They look dorky but a decent job can add
5-7 mph to your flat-ground cruising speeds, assuming you have the
gearing for that.


I've wondered how stable those things are in gusting crosswinds. Any idea?


The designs are so varied that you can't say anything. The short wheelbase streamliners seem to be pretty unsteady but the longer wheelbase one, particularly with some suspension are pretty good from all accounts.


I think that it is safe to say at least one thing:

Also, having big airplane-style canopy windows means you boil in sunny/warm weather.


.... and that is that this is an understatement; you are going to cook in all weather conditions. Put competitive cyclists on stationary bikes in the gym and they fall apart, I read. Until you put a fan in front of them. The cooling from airflow is an integral part of the system. This certainly lines up with my own experience and clothing preferences.

  #20  
Old April 17th 17, 11:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Getting into and out of streamliner recumbents

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 5:45:19 PM UTC-4, Doug Landau wrote:
On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 5:43:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:

Snipped
Also, having big airplane-style canopy windows means you boil in sunny/warm weather.


... and that is that this is an understatement; you are going to cook in all weather conditions. Put competitive cyclists on stationary bikes in the gym and they fall apart, I read. Until you put a fan in front of them. The cooling from airflow is an integral part of the system. This certainly lines up with my own experience and clothing preferences.


Again the reply was misinterpreted. Whn I said "like an airplane canopy" I was refering the canopy on a WW2 fighter was pushed rearward to enter or exit the aircraft and then pulled forward to seal it. I was NOT refering to a completely enclosed recumbent bicycle design. The rear or front of the recumbent fairing would be on a rails or other guides an would be moved to allow ingress or egress of the rider and then closed once the bicycle was in motion. Very lightweight rails/slots could easily be incorporated into the design of the recumbent shell.

Then again you could have a hinged shell that opened up by pivoting forward then got pulled back down by the rider once the rider was on the recumbent..

Cheers
 




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