Snap, topple and pop

"Tony Dragon" wrote in message
news
mileburner wrote:
"Matt B" wrote in message
...

In slow, but continuously moving traffic, it would be anti-social to
leave gaps between each car, big enough for each and every car to be
able to avoid stopping in the 4m length (13ft) of an ASL box.

I disagree.

If everyone left a gap in front of them, as soon as the lights go green
everyone could (theoretically) start to move forward simultaneously thus
keeping the traffic flowing. The frustrating thing with traffic at lights
is that the numpty in front is so close to the car in front that they
must wait for the car in front to pull away before they can go too. The
traffic is then strung out and less cars get through the lights.

Right, so at a stroke you have increased every traffic queue by at least
50%, good thinking.

And also eliminated jams...

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:48:46 +0000, Tony Dragon wrote:

mileburner wrote:
"Matt B" wrote in message
...

In slow, but continuously moving traffic, it would be anti-social to leave
gaps between each car, big enough for each and every car to be able to
avoid stopping in the 4m length (13ft) of an ASL box.

I disagree.

If everyone left a gap in front of them, as soon as the lights go green
everyone could (theoretically) start to move forward simultaneously thus
keeping the traffic flowing. The frustrating thing with traffic at lights is
that the numpty in front is so close to the car in front that they must wait
for the car in front to pull away before they can go too. The traffic is
then strung out and less cars get through the lights.


Right, so at a stroke you have increased every traffic queue by at least
50%, good thinking.

In general, the length of the traffic queue matters a lot less than how
many vehicles get through the lights on each change (the length of the
queue may matter if it tails back and blocks another junction).

I some interesting computer modelling a while back which aimed to predict
how traffic would flow through new junctions, the idea being that different
layouts could be tried in the computer to see which was best and avoid
expensive mistakes. The models didn't work very well to start with until
they put a lot of effort in to modelling driver behaviour in the real
world, rather than assuming most people behaved sensibly. The models then
worked pretty well (and junctions had lower throughput).

Traffic flow has some similarity to liquid flowing in a pipe. Lots of
vehicles very close together behave like a viscous fluid, very slow to get
moving. If the vehicles are more spread out, then flow rates through a
junction can be better.

You can sometimes see the same effect on crowded motorways. Traffic can be
going along smoothly at 40, then for no apparent reason it comes almost to
a standstill, then for no apparent reason it speeds up to 40 again - this
is the traffic equivalent of water knocking in a pipe.

--
rob

rob wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 13:48:46 +0000, Tony Dragon wrote:

mileburner wrote:
"Matt B" wrote in message
...

In slow, but continuously moving traffic, it would be anti-social to leave
gaps between each car, big enough for each and every car to be able to
avoid stopping in the 4m length (13ft) of an ASL box.
I disagree.

If everyone left a gap in front of them, as soon as the lights go green
everyone could (theoretically) start to move forward simultaneously thus
keeping the traffic flowing. The frustrating thing with traffic at lights is
that the numpty in front is so close to the car in front that they must wait
for the car in front to pull away before they can go too. The traffic is
then strung out and less cars get through the lights.

Right, so at a stroke you have increased every traffic queue by at least
50%, good thinking.

In general, the length of the traffic queue matters a lot less than how
many vehicles get through the lights on each change (the length of the
queue may matter if it tails back and blocks another junction).

Only if you restrict your considerations to the effect on that particular set
of vehicles and don't consider the effects on other traffic flows which have
to share some of the same road-space.

I some interesting computer modelling a while back which aimed to predict
how traffic would flow through new junctions, the idea being that different
layouts could be tried in the computer to see which was best and avoid
expensive mistakes. The models didn't work very well to start with until
they put a lot of effort in to modelling driver behaviour in the real
world, rather than assuming most people behaved sensibly. The models then
worked pretty well (and junctions had lower throughput).

Traffic flow has some similarity to liquid flowing in a pipe. Lots of
vehicles very close together behave like a viscous fluid, very slow to get
moving. If the vehicles are more spread out, then flow rates through a
junction can be better.

If, in a 30mph limit, the lights are green for only 30s out of three minutes
(not so unusual these days), and if you start your "run in" from stationery a
quarter-mile away, you almost certainly won't get through. If you start from
half that distance, you almost certainly will.

Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
mileburner wrote:
"Tom Crispin" wrote in
message ...
The relevance - for those who missed it - was that there was a large
vehicle tight behind me, almost certainly illegally positioned, as I
toppled.
Bad place to be Tom. For safety's sake you should be behind, or well
ahead of, any large vehicle, even if that means crossing the line
illegally.

Many drivers stop in (or beyond) the ASL to block cyclists from
getting ahead and to beat them away from the lights. Let them go,
it's better than ending up dead, (even if that would please Medway).
The coach may have got stuck in that position because the traffic
lights
changed from green to red whilst waiting from a vehicle in from to turn
right/left. This has happened to me, your then left stuck in no-mans
land looking like you don't know the rules of the road, egg on face etc
until the lights change again.
There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the ASL
box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late to stop before it.

I don't wish to be controversial but there is... in the Highway Code...

Rule 178:
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop
lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic.
Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction
ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white
line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second
white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists
time and space to move off when the green signal shows

That confirms exactly what I wrote - doesn't it? ...

It says:

'If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at
the time that the signal goes red, you *MUST* stop at the
second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked
area.'

I said:

'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping
in the ASL box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late
to stop before it.'


you appear to have missed the part preceding that which first states:

Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction
ahead is blocked.

tell me which part of
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
is it that you don't understand?

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
m...
Tom Crispin wrote:
Handlebar broke today on the A20.

I was stopped at lights in primary position, ahead of a coach that was
parked in the ASL reservoir. As I pulled off the left handlebar
broke, my foot came off the pedal (not using the cleats on my double
sided pedals) and I had a tumble.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Thats made my day!

Serves you right for being a ****ing cyclist.

Hope you didn't become a burden to the NHS.





His improved mental and physical fitness including above average heart and
lung fitness will have saved The NHS more than your motoring costs it.

Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
mileburner wrote:
"Tom Crispin" wrote in
message ...
The relevance - for those who missed it - was that there was a large
vehicle tight behind me, almost certainly illegally positioned, as I
toppled.
Bad place to be Tom. For safety's sake you should be behind, or well
ahead of, any large vehicle, even if that means crossing the line
illegally.

Many drivers stop in (or beyond) the ASL to block cyclists from
getting ahead and to beat them away from the lights. Let them go,
it's better than ending up dead, (even if that would please Medway).
The coach may have got stuck in that position because the traffic
lights
changed from green to red whilst waiting from a vehicle in from to turn
right/left. This has happened to me, your then left stuck in no-mans
land looking like you don't know the rules of the road, egg on face etc
until the lights change again.
There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the ASL
box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late to stop before it.
I don't wish to be controversial but there is... in the Highway Code...

Rule 178:
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop
lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic.
Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction
ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white
line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second
white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists
time and space to move off when the green signal shows
That confirms exactly what I wrote - doesn't it? ...

It says:

'If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at
the time that the signal goes red, you *MUST* stop at the
second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked
area.'

I said:

'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping
in the ASL box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late
to stop before it.'


you appear to have missed the part preceding that which first states:

Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction
ahead is blocked.

tell me which part of
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
is it that you don't understand?

I understand it all perfectly, others though apparently don't.

'MUST stop at the first white line' applies /only/ if you haven't
reached it before the lights turn red, or if the lights are on amber and
you can safely stop at it.

'should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at
other times' means leave it clear if you can, especially in stop-start
traffic - courtesy and common sense, but _not_ mandatory.

However, what _is_ mandatory though, and this seems to be the bit that
some people fail to understand, is that if the lights change _after_
you've passed the point of being obliged to stop at the first white
line, then the second white line comes into play, and you *MUST* stop at
it (yes, _inside_ the ASL box) if the lights are red or if you can
safely do so on amber.

--
Matt B

mileburner wrote:
"Tony Dragon" wrote in message
news
mileburner wrote:
"Matt B" wrote in message
...

In slow, but continuously moving traffic, it would be anti-social to
leave gaps between each car, big enough for each and every car to be
able to avoid stopping in the 4m length (13ft) of an ASL box.
I disagree.

If everyone left a gap in front of them, as soon as the lights go green
everyone could (theoretically) start to move forward simultaneously thus
keeping the traffic flowing. The frustrating thing with traffic at lights
is that the numpty in front is so close to the car in front that they
must wait for the car in front to pull away before they can go too. The
traffic is then strung out and less cars get through the lights.
Right, so at a stroke you have increased every traffic queue by at least
50%, good thinking.

And also eliminated jams...



So you discount the possibility of jams being caused by the length of
the queue.

--
Tony Dragon

Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
mileburner wrote:
"Tom Crispin" wrote in
message ...
The relevance - for those who missed it - was that there was a large
vehicle tight behind me, almost certainly illegally positioned, as I
toppled.
Bad place to be Tom. For safety's sake you should be behind, or well
ahead of, any large vehicle, even if that means crossing the line
illegally.

Many drivers stop in (or beyond) the ASL to block cyclists from
getting ahead and to beat them away from the lights. Let them go,
it's better than ending up dead, (even if that would please Medway).
The coach may have got stuck in that position because the traffic
lights
changed from green to red whilst waiting from a vehicle in from to turn
right/left. This has happened to me, your then left stuck in no-mans
land looking like you don't know the rules of the road, egg on face etc
until the lights change again.
There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the ASL
box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late to stop before it.
I don't wish to be controversial but there is... in the Highway Code...

Rule 178:
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop
lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic.
Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction
ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white
line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second
white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists
time and space to move off when the green signal shows
That confirms exactly what I wrote - doesn't it? ...

It says:

'If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at
the time that the signal goes red, you *MUST* stop at the
second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked
area.'

I said:

'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping
in the ASL box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late
to stop before it.'


you appear to have missed the part preceding that which first states:

Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction
ahead is blocked.

tell me which part of
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
is it that you don't understand?


Well I understand what it means, perhaps you, should have a good think
about it.

--
Tony Dragon

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:16:36 +0000, Tom Crispin
wrote:

Handlebar broke today on the A20.

http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...horn/handlebar
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...orn/handlebar2

I was stopped at lights in primary position, ahead of a coach that was
parked in the ASL reservoir. As I pulled off the left handlebar
broke, my foot came off the pedal (not using the cleats on my double
sided pedals) and I had a tumble.

And I had been led to believe that my handlebars were carbon. Now I
know they are carbon coated 2014 alloy.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-T...bars-10598.htm

A whole heap of posts on your road positioning, at least one from a
dip**** anti-cyclist with an axe to grind, and none from anyone about
the design/material/manufacturing problem you experienced!

Perhaps a crosspost to rec.bicycles.tech could be justified?

I totally fail to see any advantages in carbon or extreme lightweight
components on bikes used for anything but out and out racing. If you
are fit and fast enough you don't need them to make you go faster, if
you aren't fit enough then they do nothing to make you fitter or
faster. Their durability is dubious, the quality assurance often seems
very lacking as shown on repeated occasions at
http://www.bustedcarbon.com/

As for combining aluminium alloy and carbon fibre, it beggars belief
what they were trying to achieve other than a 'cool' look.


--

Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
mileburner wrote:
"Tom Crispin" wrote in
message ...
The relevance - for those who missed it - was that there was a
large
vehicle tight behind me, almost certainly illegally positioned,
as I
toppled.
Bad place to be Tom. For safety's sake you should be behind, or well
ahead of, any large vehicle, even if that means crossing the line
illegally.

Many drivers stop in (or beyond) the ASL to block cyclists from
getting ahead and to beat them away from the lights. Let them go,
it's better than ending up dead, (even if that would please Medway).
The coach may have got stuck in that position because the traffic
lights
changed from green to red whilst waiting from a vehicle in from to
turn
right/left. This has happened to me, your then left stuck in no-mans
land looking like you don't know the rules of the road, egg on
face etc
until the lights change again.
There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the
ASL
box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late to stop before it.
I don't wish to be controversial but there is... in the Highway Code...

Rule 178:
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced
stop
lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic.
Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the
way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction
ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white
line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second
white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists
time and space to move off when the green signal shows
That confirms exactly what I wrote - doesn't it? ...

It says:

'If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at
the time that the signal goes red, you *MUST* stop at the
second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked
area.'

I said:

'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping
in the ASL box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late
to stop before it.'


you appear to have missed the part preceding that which first states:

Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction
ahead is blocked.

tell me which part of
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
is it that you don't understand?

I understand it all perfectly, others though apparently don't.

'MUST stop at the first white line' applies /only/ if you haven't
reached it before the lights turn red, or if the lights are on amber and
you can safely stop at it.

'should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at
other times' means leave it clear if you can, especially in stop-start
traffic - courtesy and common sense, but _not_ mandatory.

However, what _is_ mandatory though, and this seems to be the bit that
some people fail to understand, is that if the lights change _after_
you've passed the point of being obliged to stop at the first white
line, then the second white line comes into play, and you *MUST* stop at
it (yes, _inside_ the ASL box) if the lights are red or if you can
safely do so on amber.


Sorry, I must have misunderstood you, I thought you said:
'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the ASL
box'
when clearly:
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
*is* something in the rules of the road against stopping in the advanced
stop line box. However you have now qualified, correctly, what you said.
And I agree you understand the rules, sorry again