Snap, topple and pop

Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
mileburner wrote:
"Tom Crispin" wrote in
message ...
The relevance - for those who missed it - was that there was a
large
vehicle tight behind me, almost certainly illegally positioned,
as I
toppled.
Bad place to be Tom. For safety's sake you should be behind, or well
ahead of, any large vehicle, even if that means crossing the line
illegally.

Many drivers stop in (or beyond) the ASL to block cyclists from
getting ahead and to beat them away from the lights. Let them go,
it's better than ending up dead, (even if that would please Medway).
The coach may have got stuck in that position because the traffic
lights
changed from green to red whilst waiting from a vehicle in from to
turn
right/left. This has happened to me, your then left stuck in no-mans
land looking like you don't know the rules of the road, egg on
face etc
until the lights change again.
There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the
ASL
box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late to stop before it.
I don't wish to be controversial but there is... in the Highway Code...

Rule 178:
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced
stop
lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic.
Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the
way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction
ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white
line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second
white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists
time and space to move off when the green signal shows
That confirms exactly what I wrote - doesn't it? ...

It says:

'If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at
the time that the signal goes red, you *MUST* stop at the
second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked
area.'

I said:

'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping
in the ASL box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late
to stop before it.'

you appear to have missed the part preceding that which first states:

Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction
ahead is blocked.

tell me which part of
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
is it that you don't understand?
I understand it all perfectly, others though apparently don't.

'MUST stop at the first white line' applies /only/ if you haven't
reached it before the lights turn red, or if the lights are on amber and
you can safely stop at it.

'should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at
other times' means leave it clear if you can, especially in stop-start
traffic - courtesy and common sense, but _not_ mandatory.

However, what _is_ mandatory though, and this seems to be the bit that
some people fail to understand, is that if the lights change _after_
you've passed the point of being obliged to stop at the first white
line, then the second white line comes into play, and you *MUST* stop at
it (yes, _inside_ the ASL box) if the lights are red or if you can
safely do so on amber.


Sorry, I must have misunderstood you, I thought you said:
'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the ASL
box'
when clearly:
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
*is* something in the rules of the road against stopping in the advanced
stop line box. However you have now qualified, correctly, what you said.
And I agree you understand the rules, sorry again

Very gracious of you. ;-)

The important point is that it is _not_ illegal to stop in the box.
However, it _may_ actually be illegal to leave it.

It may also, of course, be illegal to enter the box (by crossing the
first white line) - whether on a push bike or in a motor vehicle.

--
Matt B

Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
mileburner wrote:
"Tom Crispin" wrote in
message ...
The relevance - for those who missed it - was that there was a
large
vehicle tight behind me, almost certainly illegally positioned,
as I
toppled.
Bad place to be Tom. For safety's sake you should be behind, or
well
ahead of, any large vehicle, even if that means crossing the line
illegally.

Many drivers stop in (or beyond) the ASL to block cyclists from
getting ahead and to beat them away from the lights. Let them go,
it's better than ending up dead, (even if that would please
Medway).
The coach may have got stuck in that position because the traffic
lights
changed from green to red whilst waiting from a vehicle in from to
turn
right/left. This has happened to me, your then left stuck in
no-mans
land looking like you don't know the rules of the road, egg on
face etc
until the lights change again.
There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the
ASL
box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late to stop
before it.
I don't wish to be controversial but there is... in the Highway
Code...

Rule 178:
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced
stop
lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic.
Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the
way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the
junction
ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white
line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the
second
white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow
cyclists
time and space to move off when the green signal shows
That confirms exactly what I wrote - doesn't it? ...

It says:

'If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at
the time that the signal goes red, you *MUST* stop at the
second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked
area.'

I said:

'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping
in the ASL box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late
to stop before it.'

you appear to have missed the part preceding that which first states:

Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the
way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction
ahead is blocked.

tell me which part of
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
is it that you don't understand?
I understand it all perfectly, others though apparently don't.

'MUST stop at the first white line' applies /only/ if you haven't
reached it before the lights turn red, or if the lights are on amber and
you can safely stop at it.

'should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at
other times' means leave it clear if you can, especially in stop-start
traffic - courtesy and common sense, but _not_ mandatory.

However, what _is_ mandatory though, and this seems to be the bit that
some people fail to understand, is that if the lights change _after_
you've passed the point of being obliged to stop at the first white
line, then the second white line comes into play, and you *MUST* stop at
it (yes, _inside_ the ASL box) if the lights are red or if you can
safely do so on amber.


Sorry, I must have misunderstood you, I thought you said:
'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the ASL
box'
when clearly:
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
*is* something in the rules of the road against stopping in the advanced
stop line box. However you have now qualified, correctly, what you said.
And I agree you understand the rules, sorry again

Very gracious of you. ;-)

The important point is that it is _not_ illegal to stop in the box.
However, it _may_ actually be illegal to leave it.

It may also, of course, be illegal to enter the box (by crossing the
first white line) - whether on a push bike or in a motor vehicle.


Yes, It maybe illegal (it's certainly against the rules) for a motor
vehicle to enter the box under certain circumstances but not for a
bicycle as that is what there for 'to allow cycles to be positioned
ahead of other traffic' from rule 178

On 28/01/2010 18:19, Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
mileburner wrote:
"Tom wrote in
message ...
The relevance - for those who missed it - was that there was a
large
vehicle tight behind me, almost certainly illegally positioned,
as I
toppled.
Bad place to be Tom. For safety's sake you should be behind, or
well
ahead of, any large vehicle, even if that means crossing the line
illegally.

Many drivers stop in (or beyond) the ASL to block cyclists from
getting ahead and to beat them away from the lights. Let them go,
it's better than ending up dead, (even if that would please
Medway).
The coach may have got stuck in that position because the traffic
lights
changed from green to red whilst waiting from a vehicle in from to
turn
right/left. This has happened to me, your then left stuck in
no-mans
land looking like you don't know the rules of the road, egg on
face etc
until the lights change again.
There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the
ASL
box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late to stop
before it.
I don't wish to be controversial but there is... in the Highway
Code...

Rule 178:
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced
stop
lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic.
Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the
way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the
junction
ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white
line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the
second
white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow
cyclists
time and space to move off when the green signal shows
That confirms exactly what I wrote - doesn't it? ...

It says:

'If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at
the time that the signal goes red, you *MUST* stop at the
second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked
area.'

I said:

'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping
in the ASL box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late
to stop before it.'

you appear to have missed the part preceding that which first states:

Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the
way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction
ahead is blocked.

tell me which part of
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
is it that you don't understand?
I understand it all perfectly, others though apparently don't.

'MUST stop at the first white line' applies /only/ if you haven't
reached it before the lights turn red, or if the lights are on amber and
you can safely stop at it.

'should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at
other times' means leave it clear if you can, especially in stop-start
traffic - courtesy and common sense, but _not_ mandatory.

However, what _is_ mandatory though, and this seems to be the bit that
some people fail to understand, is that if the lights change _after_
you've passed the point of being obliged to stop at the first white
line, then the second white line comes into play, and you *MUST* stop at
it (yes, _inside_ the ASL box) if the lights are red or if you can
safely do so on amber.


Sorry, I must have misunderstood you, I thought you said:
'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the ASL
box'
when clearly:
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
*is* something in the rules of the road against stopping in the advanced
stop line box. However you have now qualified, correctly, what you said.
And I agree you understand the rules, sorry again

Very gracious of you. ;-)

The important point is that it is _not_ illegal to stop in the box.
However, it _may_ actually be illegal to leave it.

It may also, of course, be illegal to enter the box (by crossing the
first white line) - whether on a push bike or in a motor vehicle.

Yes, It maybe illegal (it's certainly against the rules) for a motor
vehicle to enter the box under certain circumstances but not for a
bicycle as that is what there for 'to allow cycles to be positioned
ahead of other traffic' from rule 178

The same law applies to pedal cycles as to motor vehicles as far as
crossing the white line into an ASL box is concerned. However, pedal
cycles (and not motor vehicles) _may_ be able to legally enter the box
on a red light via a cycle lane or "gate".

--
Matt B

"Tony Dragon" wrote in message
...
mileburner wrote:
"Tony Dragon" wrote in message
news
mileburner wrote:
"Matt B" wrote in message
...

In slow, but continuously moving traffic, it would be anti-social to
leave gaps between each car, big enough for each and every car to be
able to avoid stopping in the 4m length (13ft) of an ASL box.
I disagree.

If everyone left a gap in front of them, as soon as the lights go green
everyone could (theoretically) start to move forward simultaneously
thus keeping the traffic flowing. The frustrating thing with traffic at
lights is that the numpty in front is so close to the car in front that
they must wait for the car in front to pull away before they can go
too. The traffic is then strung out and less cars get through the
lights.
Right, so at a stroke you have increased every traffic queue by at least
50%, good thinking.

And also eliminated jams...

So you discount the possibility of jams being caused by the length of the
queue.

What, a jam with all those gaps in it :-)

"Matt B" wrote in message
...

The same law applies to pedal cycles as to motor vehicles as far as
crossing the white line into an ASL box is concerned. However, pedal
cycles (and not motor vehicles) _may_ be able to legally enter the box on
a red light via a cycle lane or "gate".

If plod were daft enough to try to nick me for crossing the first line and
entering the bicycle box, on a bicycle, I would take my chances with the
magistrate.

Anyway, the feeder lanes are usually in the gutter. A very dangerous place
to cycle. Saying that, there is one in our town which is in-between two
lanes. It's unusable as there is normally other traffic in it.

Matt B wrote:
On 28/01/2010 18:19, Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
mileburner wrote:
"Tom wrote in
message ...
The relevance - for those who missed it - was that there was a
large
vehicle tight behind me, almost certainly illegally positioned,
as I
toppled.
Bad place to be Tom. For safety's sake you should be behind, or
well
ahead of, any large vehicle, even if that means crossing the
line
illegally.

Many drivers stop in (or beyond) the ASL to block cyclists from
getting ahead and to beat them away from the lights. Let them
go,
it's better than ending up dead, (even if that would please
Medway).
The coach may have got stuck in that position because the traffic
lights
changed from green to red whilst waiting from a vehicle in
from to
turn
right/left. This has happened to me, your then left stuck in
no-mans
land looking like you don't know the rules of the road, egg on
face etc
until the lights change again.
There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in
the
ASL
box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late to stop
before it.
I don't wish to be controversial but there is... in the Highway
Code...

Rule 178:
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced
stop
lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic.
Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white
line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking
the
way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the
junction
ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first
white
line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the
second
white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow
cyclists
time and space to move off when the green signal shows
That confirms exactly what I wrote - doesn't it? ...

It says:

'If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at
the time that the signal goes red, you *MUST* stop at the
second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked
area.'

I said:

'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping
in the ASL box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late
to stop before it.'

you appear to have missed the part preceding that which first states:

Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the
way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the
junction
ahead is blocked.

tell me which part of
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the
way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
is it that you don't understand?
I understand it all perfectly, others though apparently don't.

'MUST stop at the first white line' applies /only/ if you haven't
reached it before the lights turn red, or if the lights are on
amber and
you can safely stop at it.

'should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at
other times' means leave it clear if you can, especially in stop-start
traffic - courtesy and common sense, but _not_ mandatory.

However, what _is_ mandatory though, and this seems to be the bit that
some people fail to understand, is that if the lights change _after_
you've passed the point of being obliged to stop at the first white
line, then the second white line comes into play, and you *MUST*
stop at
it (yes, _inside_ the ASL box) if the lights are red or if you can
safely do so on amber.


Sorry, I must have misunderstood you, I thought you said:
'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the
ASL
box'
when clearly:
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
*is* something in the rules of the road against stopping in the
advanced
stop line box. However you have now qualified, correctly, what you
said.
And I agree you understand the rules, sorry again

Very gracious of you. ;-)

The important point is that it is _not_ illegal to stop in the box.
However, it _may_ actually be illegal to leave it.

It may also, of course, be illegal to enter the box (by crossing the
first white line) - whether on a push bike or in a motor vehicle.

Yes, It maybe illegal (it's certainly against the rules) for a motor
vehicle to enter the box under certain circumstances but not for a
bicycle as that is what there for 'to allow cycles to be positioned
ahead of other traffic' from rule 178

The same law applies to pedal cycles as to motor vehicles as far as
crossing the white line into an ASL box is concerned. However, pedal
cycles (and not motor vehicles) _may_ be able to legally enter the box
on a red light via a cycle lane or "gate".


Yes indeed, or by what is known as filtering though or overtaking the
other traffic

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:27:18 +0000, Mike wrote:

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:16:36 +0000, Tom Crispin
wrote:

Handlebar broke today on the A20.

http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...horn/handlebar
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...orn/handlebar2

I was stopped at lights in primary position, ahead of a coach that was
parked in the ASL reservoir. As I pulled off the left handlebar
broke, my foot came off the pedal (not using the cleats on my double
sided pedals) and I had a tumble.

And I had been led to believe that my handlebars were carbon. Now I
know they are carbon coated 2014 alloy.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-T...bars-10598.htm

A whole heap of posts on your road positioning, at least one from a
dip**** anti-cyclist with an axe to grind, and none from anyone about
the design/material/manufacturing problem you experienced!

Perhaps a crosspost to rec.bicycles.tech could be justified?

I totally fail to see any advantages in carbon or extreme lightweight
components on bikes used for anything but out and out racing. If you
are fit and fast enough you don't need them to make you go faster, if
you aren't fit enough then they do nothing to make you fitter or
faster. Their durability is dubious, the quality assurance often seems
very lacking as shown on repeated occasions at
http://www.bustedcarbon.com/

As for combining aluminium alloy and carbon fibre, it beggars belief
what they were trying to achieve other than a 'cool' look.

I like 'bike bling'.

Tony Dragon wrote:
mileburner wrote:
"Matt B" wrote in message
...

In slow, but continuously moving traffic, it would be anti-social to
leave gaps between each car, big enough for each and every car to be
able to avoid stopping in the 4m length (13ft) of an ASL box.

I disagree.

If everyone left a gap in front of them, as soon as the lights go
green everyone could (theoretically) start to move forward
simultaneously thus keeping the traffic flowing. The frustrating thing
with traffic at lights is that the numpty in front is so close to the
car in front that they must wait for the car in front to pull away
before they can go too. The traffic is then strung out and less cars
get through the lights.


Right, so at a stroke you have increased every traffic queue by at least
50%, good thinking.


I don't think leaving a gap matters when you're a dozen or so cars back
- you probably won't make it through at the next change of the lights
anyway.

--
www.slowbicyclemovement.org - enjoy the ride

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:27:18 +0000
Mike wrote:

I totally fail to see any advantages in carbon or extreme lightweight
components on bikes used for anything but out and out racing. If you
are fit and fast enough you don't need them to make you go faster, if
you aren't fit enough then they do nothing to make you fitter or
faster. Their durability is dubious, the quality assurance often seems
very lacking as shown on repeated occasions at
http://www.bustedcarbon.com/

"Enjoy the carbon goodies you get for Christmas, and send me photos of
them when they break." Hehe.

Matt B wrote:
On 28/01/2010 18:19, Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
Matt B wrote:
Jolly Polly wrote:
mileburner wrote:
"Tom wrote in
message ...
The relevance - for those who missed it - was that there was a
large
vehicle tight behind me, almost certainly illegally positioned,
as I
toppled.
Bad place to be Tom. For safety's sake you should be behind, or
well
ahead of, any large vehicle, even if that means crossing the
line
illegally.

Many drivers stop in (or beyond) the ASL to block cyclists from
getting ahead and to beat them away from the lights. Let them
go,
it's better than ending up dead, (even if that would please
Medway).
The coach may have got stuck in that position because the traffic
lights
changed from green to red whilst waiting from a vehicle in
from to
turn
right/left. This has happened to me, your then left stuck in
no-mans
land looking like you don't know the rules of the road, egg on
face etc
until the lights change again.
There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in
the
ASL
box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late to stop
before it.
I don't wish to be controversial but there is... in the Highway
Code...

Rule 178:
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced
stop
lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic.
Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white
line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking
the
way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the
junction
ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first
white
line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the
second
white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow
cyclists
time and space to move off when the green signal shows
That confirms exactly what I wrote - doesn't it? ...

It says:

'If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at
the time that the signal goes red, you *MUST* stop at the
second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked
area.'

I said:

'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping
in the ASL box; indeed you MUST if the lights changed too late
to stop before it.'

you appear to have missed the part preceding that which first states:

Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line
reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the
way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the
junction
ahead is blocked.

tell me which part of
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the
way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
is it that you don't understand?
I understand it all perfectly, others though apparently don't.

'MUST stop at the first white line' applies /only/ if you haven't
reached it before the lights turn red, or if the lights are on
amber and
you can safely stop at it.

'should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at
other times' means leave it clear if you can, especially in stop-start
traffic - courtesy and common sense, but _not_ mandatory.

However, what _is_ mandatory though, and this seems to be the bit that
some people fail to understand, is that if the lights change _after_
you've passed the point of being obliged to stop at the first white
line, then the second white line comes into play, and you *MUST*
stop at
it (yes, _inside_ the ASL box) if the lights are red or if you can
safely do so on amber.


Sorry, I must have misunderstood you, I thought you said:
'There is nothing in the "rules of the road" against stopping in the
ASL
box'
when clearly:
'MUST stop at the first white line' and 'should avoid blocking the way
or encroaching on the marked area at other times'
*is* something in the rules of the road against stopping in the
advanced
stop line box. However you have now qualified, correctly, what you
said.
And I agree you understand the rules, sorry again

Very gracious of you. ;-)

The important point is that it is _not_ illegal to stop in the box.
However, it _may_ actually be illegal to leave it.

It may also, of course, be illegal to enter the box (by crossing the
first white line) - whether on a push bike or in a motor vehicle.

Yes, It maybe illegal (it's certainly against the rules) for a motor
vehicle to enter the box under certain circumstances but not for a
bicycle as that is what there for 'to allow cycles to be positioned
ahead of other traffic' from rule 178

The same law applies to pedal cycles as to motor vehicles as far as
crossing the white line into an ASL box is concerned. However, pedal
cycles (and not motor vehicles) _may_ be able to legally enter the box
on a red light via a cycle lane or "gate".


I don't bother with ASLs very often myself. I'm so slow off the line
everyone behind would get really annoyed with me!

--
www.slowbicyclemovement.org - enjoy the ride