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  #21  
Old June 8th 05, 11:51 AM
Peter Clinch
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DougC wrote:

notice that most-all recumbents (at least, the ones with small front
wheels that I rode) could not be ridden hands-free. So I think a tiny
front wheel just does not stabilize as well as a big wheel does.


I think it's probably more to do with fork trail than directly with
wheel size.

that, I would get a LWB or CLWB. The longer bikes feel much more stable
overall, the SWB's are very jittery.


Though the longer wheelbase machines I've ridden have been /more/
stable, that's not the same as SWB machines being problematically
unstable by design IME. I've ridden very jittery ones and many very
much less jittery ones. Having ridden a Speedmachine with two different
handlebar styles on an otherwise identical bike I know that jitter can
be caused in part by the rider and how they personally interface with
the cycle: I don't get on that well with tiller steering, but I know
that's me rather than the system being fundamentally hopeless.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

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  #22  
Old June 8th 05, 02:22 PM
Jeff Grippe
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Buck said.
Quads are usually very heavy, The steering issue with Catrike Speed stems
from it having direct steering, the 2003 model did have a lot of pedal and
brake steer but this has been dialed out with the new frame geometry, the
Windcheetah likewise requires little steering input to affect large
changes in course, the answer to that problem is experience.
You get pedal steer on two wheel bents as well as trikes, it is down to
not having a smooth cadence, there are trikes around with slower steering,
the Trice, Greenspeed and the new Catrike Road all use indirect steering
for more touring orientated trikes and as such require more steering input
to affect direction. I ride a Speed and often exceed 50mph with no
problems at all and anyone who has ridden in England will tell you we do
not have the best surfaces in the world, but I do have a huge mileage
behind me.


Heavy doesn't bother me. When you add my weight to any bike or trike it
becomes heavy. If I'm going to take 15-20 pounds of weight off of the
vehicle it would be best taken off of me and not the bike/trike. Since I'm
not a fast rider and my objective is to go far (but not fast), I think that
the WindCheetah is probably not the right trike for me (which is why I
posted a "for trade" notice on this group).

The Catrike that I tried was not a 2005. It may have been a 2004 although
the dealer that I visited tended to stock things so while it was new (as in
unused) it could have been older. I rode it after the Greenspeed and
Wizwheelz and immediately detected something in the steering that I didn't
like. Honestly that colored the whole experience and I didn't even take it
out on the 1 mile test course.

I've got less than 50 miles on the WindCheetah. I was going straight on a
quality road. When I got up to about 30 MPH I didn't like the way it felt.
It felt like it was starting to stray a little. I slowed down because I know
how sensitive the steering is and I couldn't imagine trying to make mirco
adjustments with the level of experience that I have.

The WindCheetah does seem to always "want" to return to straight ahead so it
takes no real effort to go straight. Since it appears that it will not be an
easy trike to trade I will probably put a season or two on it before making
a decision about whether or not to keep it.

Thanks for the info.

Jeff


  #23  
Old June 8th 05, 02:34 PM
Buck
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On 06/08/2005 14:22:48 "Jeff Grippe" wrote:

Buck said.


Quads are usually very heavy, The steering issue with Catrike Speed stems
from it having direct steering, the 2003 model did have a lot of pedal
and brake steer but this has been dialed out with the new frame geometry,
the Windcheetah likewise requires little steering input to affect large
changes in course, the answer to that problem is experience. You get
pedal steer on two wheel bents as well as trikes, it is down to not
having a smooth cadence, there are trikes around with slower steering,
the Trice, Greenspeed and the new Catrike Road all use indirect steering
for more touring orientated trikes and as such require more steering
input to affect direction. I ride a Speed and often exceed 50mph with no
problems at all and anyone who has ridden in England will tell you we do
not have the best surfaces in the world, but I do have a huge mileage
behind me.


Heavy doesn't bother me. When you add my weight to any bike or trike it
becomes heavy. If I'm going to take 15-20 pounds of weight off of the
vehicle it would be best taken off of me and not the bike/trike. Since
I'm not a fast rider and my objective is to go far (but not fast), I think
that the WindCheetah is probably not the right trike for me (which is why
I posted a "for trade" notice on this group).


The Catrike that I tried was not a 2005. It may have been a 2004 although
the dealer that I visited tended to stock things so while it was new (as
in unused) it could have been older. I rode it after the Greenspeed and
Wizwheelz and immediately detected something in the steering that I didn't
like. Honestly that colored the whole experience and I didn't even take
it out on the 1 mile test course.


I've got less than 50 miles on the WindCheetah. I was going straight on a
quality road. When I got up to about 30 MPH I didn't like the way it
felt. It felt like it was starting to stray a little. I slowed down
because I know how sensitive the steering is and I couldn't imagine trying
to make mirco adjustments with the level of experience that I have.


The WindCheetah does seem to always "want" to return to straight ahead so
it takes no real effort to go straight. Since it appears that it will not
be an easy trike to trade I will probably put a season or two on it before
making a decision about whether or not to keep it.


Thanks for the info.


Jeff


I would be suprised if you had a problem selling the Windcheetah, try logging into the forums on http://www.bentrideronline.com and making people aware of the trike there. I agree it is probably not the best trike for your purposes, remember that a trike needs to set up right to ride right.

--
Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
  #24  
Old June 8th 05, 10:50 PM
Edward Dolan
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"Jeff Grippe" jeff@door7 wrote in message
...
C'mon guys. This is all opinions and experience. Right and wrong aren't
really useful concepts here.


It is better to bottom post so that others do not have to read your message
in a reverse direction.

Actually, right and wrong are extremely useful concepts. Some would have you
believe that it is all in the rider when it comes to handling. If you listen
to nuts like them, you will go terribly astray and end up lost like a lamb
in the wilderness. Never listen to anyone who claims to go fast on a trike.
They are screwballs and they lie through their teeth. Thankfully, they
mostly seem to reside in the UK, a land of permanent nuts and screwballs
which the rest of the world stop listening to several generations ago.

In my experience with trikes including the one that some people have had
up to 70 MPH, they don't handle well at high speed. Now I haven't tried
every trike out there at high speed and there could be some things I don't
know about riding them (yet!).


You bet! Ride your trike to 70 mph and I definitely will not be at your
funeral as I do not want to encourage that kind of craziness.

That having been said I will never go back to two wheels. I've been able
to climb things with my trike that I'm not sure I could walk up.


Crawling up a hill at 2 mph is not much fun though, is it?

I don't know if any of the tadpoles are better than any other tadpoles at
high speed. I would guess that since the basic geometry is similar that
they have similar handling characteristics. Probably a really long wheel
base and wide front wheels would improve things. It would weigh a ton and
be impossible to transport but it would be stable.


A long wheel base anything will always handle infintely better than a short
wheelbase anything. Elementary my dear Watson. Thus spake Zarathustra!

Does anyone know if quads have the same stability problems?


Forget quads. They require internal combustion engines. A three wheeler will
serve just fine. But keep your speed down. I forbid anyone ever from going
70 mph on any kind of a bike.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota


"Buck" wrote in message
...


On 06/08/2005 03:34:58 "Edward Dolan" wrote:


Hang in there Jeff. You are right and Peter is wrong, as he is about
most
everything. The fact is trikes are hard to handle at speed due to pedal
steer and brake steer can be a problem too. Go with your own experience
and
do not listen to those UK nuts. A two wheeler will always handle much
better at speed than any three wheeler, but trikes are OK provided you
keep your speed reasonable.


Regards,


Ed Dolan - Minnesota


LOL- Dolan the oracle, the world is ending.


I leave it to the reader as to who is being reasonable and who is being a
nut case!

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota



  #25  
Old June 8th 05, 11:07 PM
Edward Dolan
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"Buck" wrote in message
...
[...]
The steering issue with Catrike Speed stems from it having direct steering,
the 2003 model did have a lot of pedal and brake steer but this has been
dialed out with the new frame geometry, the Windcheetah likewise requires
little steering input to affect large changes in course, the answer to that
problem is experience.
You get pedal steer on two wheel bents as well as trikes, it is down to
not having a smooth cadence, there are trikes around with slower steering,
the Trice, Greenspeed and the new Catrike Road all use indirect steering
for more touring orientated trikes and as such require more steering input
to affect direction. I ride a Speed and often exceed 50mph with no
problems at all and anyone who has ridden in England will tell you we do
not have the best surfaces in the world, but I do have a huge mileage
behind me.

--
Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

www.catrike.co.uk


Direct steering for a tadpole trike has got to be the worst idea ever.
Apparently, it takes a company like Catrike to come up with a loser like
that.

Despite what these trike enthusiasts have to say about going fast, pedal
steer is a fact of life on a tadpole trike and one would be well advised to
keep your speed down unless you don't care about living anymore. The kind of
pedal steer you get on a two wheeler is minimal compared to the kind of
pedal steer you get on a tadpole trike.

If Buck is riding his Catrike at 50 mph, he is not long for this world. One
of these days he is going to swerve right into the path of an oncoming
trailer truck due to pedal steer and get squashed like a bug on a
windshield. But that is the price you pay for idiocy.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota


  #26  
Old June 8th 05, 11:19 PM
Edward Dolan
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"Jeff Grippe" wrote in message
...
[...]
The Catrike that I tried was not a 2005. It may have been a 2004 although
the dealer that I visited tended to stock things so while it was new (as
in unused) it could have been older. I rode it after the Greenspeed and
Wizwheelz and immediately detected something in the steering that I didn't
like. Honestly that colored the whole experience and I didn't even take it
out on the 1 mile test course.

I've got less than 50 miles on the WindCheetah. I was going straight on a
quality road. When I got up to about 30 MPH I didn't like the way it felt.
It felt like it was starting to stray a little. I slowed down because I
know how sensitive the steering is and I couldn't imagine trying to make
mirco adjustments with the level of experience that I have.

The WindCheetah does seem to always "want" to return to straight ahead so
it takes no real effort to go straight. Since it appears that it will not
be an easy trike to trade I will probably put a season or two on it before
making a decision about whether or not to keep it.


You were just experiencing the phenomenon known as pedal steer which is
common to all tadpole trikes, some worse than others, but they all have it.
I repeat, do not listen to these UK nuts that tell you that it does not
exist or that it can be overcome by a skillful riding technique (smoother
cadence, less steering input, etc.). Instead, listen to me, the oracle of
ARBR. It is OK to get a trike, just don't ever ride it fast. Keep your speed
down to 15 to 20 mph tops and you should be fine.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota


  #27  
Old June 8th 05, 11:29 PM
Edward Dolan
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"Dave Larrington" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:

Hang in there Jeff. You are right and Peter is wrong, as he is about
most everything. The fact is trikes are hard to handle at speed due
to pedal steer and brake steer can be problem too. Go with your own
experience and do not listen to those UK nuts. A two wheeler will
always handle much better at speed than any three wheeler, but trikes
are OK provided you keep your speed reasonable.


But one doesn't get pedal steer when freewheeling... These days I'm a lot
happier to to do insane speeds on three wheels rather than two.

--
Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
Trike Vmax current 86 km/h


Dave is right about not getting pedal steer when freewheeling. I sometimes
just stop pedaling when the pedal steer kicks in and the trike will
immediately stop swerving. Unfortunately, that only works when going
downhill as you mostly have to pedal otherwise. Nevertheless, I do not feel
as safe going fast on a trike as I do on a two wheeler whether freewheeling
or not.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota


  #28  
Old June 8th 05, 11:44 PM
Edward Dolan
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
DougC wrote:

notice that most-all recumbents (at least, the ones with small front
wheels that I rode) could not be ridden hands-free. So I think a tiny
front wheel just does not stabilize as well as a big wheel does.


I think it's probably more to do with fork trail than directly with wheel
size.

that, I would get a LWB or CLWB. The longer bikes feel much more stable
overall, the SWB's are very jittery.


Though the longer wheelbase machines I've ridden have been /more/ stable,
that's not the same as SWB machines being problematically unstable by
design IME. I've ridden very jittery ones and many very much less jittery
ones. Having ridden a Speedmachine with two different handlebar styles on
an otherwise identical bike I know that jitter can be caused in part by
the rider and how they personally interface with the cycle: I don't get on
that well with tiller steering, but I know that's me rather than the
system being fundamentally hopeless.


Beware of those who think it is the rider who is at fault when a bike does
not perform as promised. The fact is that LWB is a much better design
overall than is SWB. This is the universal experience of all those who know
both types of recumbents. But let's face it, after you have spent a couple
of thousand for a SWB, you are going to defend your purchase no matter what.

Tiller steering is a non-issue and even idiot kids learn how to handle it in
minutes. Quick steering SWB on the other hand never gets overcome. It will
plague you forever.

The present fashion for SWB will soon pass and we will all go back to LWB.
We should never have left it except for the desire to have a recumbent that
was more easily transportable.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota



  #29  
Old June 9th 05, 02:12 AM
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Jeff Grippe wrote:
C'mon guys. This is all opinions and experience. Right and wrong aren't
really useful concepts here.

In my experience with trikes including the one that some people have had up
to 70 MPH, they don't handle well at high speed.


the only trike i ever rode at 70 mph was a converted harley davidson,
and i didn't like the way IT handled.

i've got 50 lbs on you and speed is my last consideration. i just want
to be able to ride a respectable distance without being embarassed by
having heart failure. i don't like the visual i get when i think about
tipping my EZ3 at high speed.

:-)

martin caskey
millers island, maryland

  #30  
Old June 9th 05, 06:28 AM
Edward Dolan
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wrote in message
oups.com...


Jeff Grippe wrote:
C'mon guys. This is all opinions and experience. Right and wrong aren't
really useful concepts here.

In my experience with trikes including the one that some people have had
up
to 70 MPH, they don't handle well at high speed.


the only trike i ever rode at 70 mph was a converted harley davidson,
and i didn't like the way IT handled.

i've got 50 lbs on you and speed is my last consideration. i just want
to be able to ride a respectable distance without being embarassed by
having heart failure. i don't like the visual i get when i think about
tipping my EZ3 at high speed.

:-)

martin caskey
millers island, maryland


You are way ahead of the game Martin. You have got a long wheel base delta
and it is fairly heavy. Therefore, you will not have any pedal steer worth
mentioning. You will also get great exercise and maybe lose some weight.

On a delta, the steering is where it ought to be - up front on a single
wheel. Pity those poor fools who spend several thousand on a tadpole trike,
thereby getting an inferior design and pedal steer to boot - the worst of
both worlds I would say!

Anything on three wheels can be tipped if you try hard enough. Hells Bells!
Anything on four wheels can be tipped if you try hard enough.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota


 




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