Torsional stiffness, example Klein

On Apr 25, 6:35*pm, Chalo wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

Jimbo said of Klein that "they not only figured out the torsional
stiffness thing, but actually acted on it. *they deserve medals for
that."

Can you give us some references, preferably with pics, and maybe you
want to spin out a short par so we know to look for precisely what
you're referring to.

Gary Klein is often credited as being the first to offer a commercial
big-tube aluminum bike. *As far as I can tell, Harlan Meyers of Hi-E
beat him to it by a span of years, having brought his frame to market
in 1972, a year before Klein claims to have conceived the idea while
in college.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...osters/Hi-E/19...

Fat tubes are torsionally much stiffer than skinny ones. *This
accounts for the relative lack of BB sway in fat-tubed aluminum frames
versus traditional steel ones. *The problem "jim beam" has is in
believing it matters that much. *If one prefers the feel of a
torsionally stiff frame, a very fat-tubed and not-too-light aluminum
frame may be the most cost- and weight-effective way to attain that
end. *But many of us either don't care or prefer more springiness in
our frames.

Having become infatuated at one time with the superior stiffness of
big-tube aluminum frames, I now feel more or less agnostic on the
matter. *I believe that there is far more difference and more benefit
in a stiff crank and BB spindle, since using these has made various
otherwise inadequate skinny-tubed steel bike frames more than
accepIttable for my own use.

Chalo

With modern AL frames, you can get a fairly steel like feel at a far
lower weight. My current Cannondale has a very stiff BB but not
nearly as stiff as the straight gauge first generation frame I bought
in 84/85. It is slightly more stiff than the BB on my old Columbus SP
frame with a boat anchor heavy Cinellli cast BB. Overal, the Al frame
has a more lively feel. IMO, it needs to be a little more stiff
through the front end for climbing. Going for a hard ride in my
capacity as old-guy team mascot for racer dudes. -- Jay Beattie.

Andre Jute wrote:
Jimbo said of Klein that "they not only figured out the torsional
stiffness thing, but actually acted on it. they deserve medals for
that."
Can you give us some references, preferably with pics, and maybe you
want to spin out a short par so we know to look for precisely what
you're referring to.

Chalo wrote:
Gary Klein is often credited as being the first to offer a commercial
big-tube aluminum bike. As far as I can tell, Harlan Meyers of Hi-E
beat him to it by a span of years, having brought his frame to market
in 1972, a year before Klein claims to have conceived the idea while
in college.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...geViewsIndex=1

Fat tubes are torsionally much stiffer than skinny ones. This
accounts for the relative lack of BB sway in fat-tubed aluminum frames
versus traditional steel ones. The problem "jim beam" has is in
believing it matters that much. If one prefers the feel of a
torsionally stiff frame, a very fat-tubed and not-too-light aluminum
frame may be the most cost- and weight-effective way to attain that
end. But many of us either don't care or prefer more springiness in
our frames.

Having become infatuated at one time with the superior stiffness of
big-tube aluminum frames, I now feel more or less agnostic on the
matter. I believe that there is far more difference and more benefit
in a stiff crank and BB spindle, since using these has made various
otherwise inadequate skinny-tubed steel bike frames more than
acceptable for my own use.


We all thought Rick Ball's Cosmo was the butt-ugliest thing
but it sure was light, it did ride well and they didn't fall
apart either. Pink too; way ahead in both material and fashion.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Jimbo said of Klein that "they not only figured out the torsional
stiffness thing, but actually acted on it. they deserve medals for
that."
Can you give us some references, preferably with pics, and maybe you
want to spin out a short par so we know to look for precisely what
you're referring to.

Chalo wrote:
Gary Klein is often credited as being the first to offer a commercial
big-tube aluminum bike. As far as I can tell, Harlan Meyers of Hi-E
beat him to it by a span of years, having brought his frame to market
in 1972, a year before Klein claims to have conceived the idea while
in college.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...geViewsIndex=1


Fat tubes are torsionally much stiffer than skinny ones. This
accounts for the relative lack of BB sway in fat-tubed aluminum frames
versus traditional steel ones. The problem "jim beam" has is in
believing it matters that much. If one prefers the feel of a
torsionally stiff frame, a very fat-tubed and not-too-light aluminum
frame may be the most cost- and weight-effective way to attain that
end. But many of us either don't care or prefer more springiness in
our frames.

Having become infatuated at one time with the superior stiffness of
big-tube aluminum frames, I now feel more or less agnostic on the
matter. I believe that there is far more difference and more benefit
in a stiff crank and BB spindle, since using these has made various
otherwise inadequate skinny-tubed steel bike frames more than
acceptable for my own use.


We all thought Rick Ball's Cosmo was the butt-ugliest thing but it sure
was light, it did ride well and they didn't fall apart either. Pink too;
way ahead in both material and fashion.

pic please. preferably, for b.s., one with the chick that has the tattoos!

jim beam wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

We all thought Rick Ball's Cosmo was the butt-ugliest thing but it
sure was light, it did ride well and they didn't fall apart either.
Pink too; way ahead in both material and fashion.

pic please. preferably, for b.s., one with the chick that has the
tattoos!

Hey, just don't call it a bunny. Sheesh.

Bill Sornson wrote:
jim beam wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

We all thought Rick Ball's Cosmo was the butt-ugliest thing but it
sure was light, it did ride well and they didn't fall apart either.
Pink too; way ahead in both material and fashion.

pic please. preferably, for b.s., one with the chick that has the
tattoos!

Hey, just don't call it a bunny. Sheesh.



what /kind/ of bunny did you have in mind, bill? i suspect it was
different to mine.

On Apr 26, 3:28*am, Tom Ace wrote:
On Apr 25, 7:08*pm, Hank Wirtz wrote:

Didn't Sheldon once (or more often) mention that his wife Harriet had
built a fat-tube Al bike herself while attending college with Gary
Klein?

Yes.http://tinyurl.com/cey646

Tom Ace

Looks like it wasn't Gary Klein who had the idea but their professor.
Good work for the prof, a career for one of his students, eventually a
husband for another. Not a bad return for a practical tutorial.

Andre Jute
Teachers and preachers

jim beam wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Jimbo said of Klein that "they not only figured out the torsional
stiffness thing, but actually acted on it. they deserve medals for
that."
Can you give us some references, preferably with pics, and maybe you
want to spin out a short par so we know to look for precisely what
you're referring to.

Chalo wrote:
Gary Klein is often credited as being the first to offer a commercial
big-tube aluminum bike. As far as I can tell, Harlan Meyers of Hi-E
beat him to it by a span of years, having brought his frame to market
in 1972, a year before Klein claims to have conceived the idea while
in college.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...geViewsIndex=1


Fat tubes are torsionally much stiffer than skinny ones. This
accounts for the relative lack of BB sway in fat-tubed aluminum frames
versus traditional steel ones. The problem "jim beam" has is in
believing it matters that much. If one prefers the feel of a
torsionally stiff frame, a very fat-tubed and not-too-light aluminum
frame may be the most cost- and weight-effective way to attain that
end. But many of us either don't care or prefer more springiness in
our frames.

Having become infatuated at one time with the superior stiffness of
big-tube aluminum frames, I now feel more or less agnostic on the
matter. I believe that there is far more difference and more benefit
in a stiff crank and BB spindle, since using these has made various
otherwise inadequate skinny-tubed steel bike frames more than
acceptable for my own use.


We all thought Rick Ball's Cosmo was the butt-ugliest thing but it
sure was light, it did ride well and they didn't fall apart either.
Pink too; way ahead in both material and fashion.

pic please. preferably, for b.s., one with the chick that has the tattoos!

Best I can do is Rick Ball:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/6013.jpg
No bike, no women with ink. Sorry

How about orange rims?:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/MOTORNJ1.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Apr 26, 3:49*pm, jim beam wrote:
Chalo wrote:

why don't you and andre just **** off together and create homoerotic
"art"? *[you're an "artist" aren't you chalo?] *because all you're
doing, without any spark of originality or independent thinking [and
/definitely/ no attempt to educate yourself] is simply humping andre's
completely engineering-free bull****.

I'm always amused when some humourless techie thinks his minor
specialty gives him the right to tell other people what they can do
and say. Yo, Jumbo, I've done more engineering in my life than you
will ever do. Have you for instance built a 68ft long monocoque
structure out of any material? My City of Germiston, a yacht I
designed and built out of moulded wood and then raced on the most
dangerous oceans, is still serving as a weather ship. I subsumed
everything you know that is relevant to me before I finished my teens,
sonny.

And if I were in any doubt, I would ask the craftsman machining the
component for his opinion, not you. In short, I'd ask Chalo or his
local equivalent, not you.

You're pretty unpleasant for a man with so little utility, Jumbo. You
should learn that the material is the least important element of any
artifact. What matters is the structure made with the material.

Andre Jute
Not everything in materials is dreamt of in Timoshenko

On Apr 26, 4:47*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Apr 25, 6:35*pm, Chalo wrote:



Andre Jute wrote:

Jimbo said of Klein that "they not only figured out the torsional
stiffness thing, but actually acted on it. *they deserve medals for
that."

Can you give us some references, preferably with pics, and maybe you
want to spin out a short par so we know to look for precisely what
you're referring to.

Gary Klein is often credited as being the first to offer a commercial
big-tube aluminum bike. *As far as I can tell, Harlan Meyers of Hi-E
beat him to it by a span of years, having brought his frame to market
in 1972, a year before Klein claims to have conceived the idea while
in college.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...osters/Hi-E/19...

Fat tubes are torsionally much stiffer than skinny ones. *This
accounts for the relative lack of BB sway in fat-tubed aluminum frames
versus traditional steel ones. *The problem "jim beam" has is in
believing it matters that much. *If one prefers the feel of a
torsionally stiff frame, a very fat-tubed and not-too-light aluminum
frame may be the most cost- and weight-effective way to attain that
end. *But many of us either don't care or prefer more springiness in
our frames.

Having become infatuated at one time with the superior stiffness of
big-tube aluminum frames, I now feel more or less agnostic on the
matter. *I believe that there is far more difference and more benefit
in a stiff crank and BB spindle, since using these has made various
otherwise inadequate skinny-tubed steel bike frames more than
accepIttable for my own use.

Chalo

With modern AL frames, you can get a fairly steel like feel at a far
lower weight. *

I'm not so sure that can be generalized to an absolute rule. My steel
bike, roughly the same style and fitting out as my ali bikes, is
actually lighter by at least ten pounds than they are. It might be an
anomaly, and I know the makers are on a determined, permanent,
expensive weight saving programme.

My current Cannondale has a very stiff BB but not
nearly as stiff as the straight gauge first generation frame I bought
in 84/85. *It is slightly more stiff than the BB on my old Columbus SP
frame with a boat anchor heavy Cinellli cast BB. Overal, the Al frame
has a more lively feel. *IMO, it needs to be a little more stiff
through the front end for climbing. * Going for a hard ride in my
capacity as old-guy team mascot for racer dudes. -- Jay Beattie.

Keep those remarks down, will you. You're ten years younger than I am!
I feel pretty young.

Andre Jute
You can ride only one bike at a time

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:05:38 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

jim beam wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Jimbo said of Klein that "they not only figured out the torsional
stiffness thing, but actually acted on it. they deserve medals for
that."
Can you give us some references, preferably with pics, and maybe you
want to spin out a short par so we know to look for precisely what
you're referring to.

Chalo wrote:
Gary Klein is often credited as being the first to offer a commercial
big-tube aluminum bike. As far as I can tell, Harlan Meyers of Hi-E
beat him to it by a span of years, having brought his frame to market
in 1972, a year before Klein claims to have conceived the idea while
in college.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...geViewsIndex=1


Fat tubes are torsionally much stiffer than skinny ones. This
accounts for the relative lack of BB sway in fat-tubed aluminum frames
versus traditional steel ones. The problem "jim beam" has is in
believing it matters that much. If one prefers the feel of a
torsionally stiff frame, a very fat-tubed and not-too-light aluminum
frame may be the most cost- and weight-effective way to attain that
end. But many of us either don't care or prefer more springiness in
our frames.

Having become infatuated at one time with the superior stiffness of
big-tube aluminum frames, I now feel more or less agnostic on the
matter. I believe that there is far more difference and more benefit
in a stiff crank and BB spindle, since using these has made various
otherwise inadequate skinny-tubed steel bike frames more than
acceptable for my own use.


We all thought Rick Ball's Cosmo was the butt-ugliest thing but it
sure was light, it did ride well and they didn't fall apart either.
Pink too; way ahead in both material and fashion.

pic please. preferably, for b.s., one with the chick that has the tattoos!

Best I can do is Rick Ball:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/6013.jpg
No bike, no women with ink. Sorry

How about orange rims?:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/MOTORNJ1.JPG

It's all about interesting bikes these days, isn't it. Pretty, ugly, garish,
understated, all the same, just so the owner feels good about it. Guess the
technology and general quality is good enough matching a bike to exactly the use
and aesthetics of the rider is where it's at.

Fun stuff.