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#21
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Italian/steel frames need more prep?
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
2) facing and chasing should be done at the frame shop, not the bike shop. There is nothing in the frame faces that will change between departure from the manufacturer's door and the start of bike assembly, I think it's absurd that this ends up the bike shop's responsibility. Greg -- "All my time I spent in heaven Revelries of dance and wine Waking to the sound of laughter Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons |
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#22
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Italian/steel frames need more prep?
G.T. wrote:
I think it's absurd that this ends up the bike shop's responsibility. This is business, nothing is absurd if it is according to contractual responsibilities or business model. The bike shop is responsible for what they sell to the customer, that is all the customer is interested in. If that includes work at the bike shop to prep the frame that should be in the shop's business model... -- MfG/Best regards helmut springer |
#23
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Italian/steel frames need more prep?
2) facing and chasing should be done at the frame shop, not the bike
shop. There is nothing in the frame faces that will change between departure from the manufacturer's door and the start of bike assembly, and there is no advantage to having bike shops do it one-by-one, unlike custom parts specs, where the shop has the competitive advantage of having the customer (who may have unusually long arms and a singleminded desire for a MegaExo BB) in front of them and the ability to choose from a wide range of parts. If frames aren't coming square from the factory (especially if they're Ti) then heaven help us. We used to accept horizontal dropouts mainly because the framebuilders couldn't do vertical dropouts accurately, but they got over that. I suspect one reason facing is no longer done on many frames is that it sometimes causes the paint to peel away, and the manufacturer would rather have that "blame" fall elsewhere. If it happens at the manufacturer, they might see the need to repaint it. If it happens at the shop? Then they'll claim it's the shop's fault. What, me, cynical? --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com "Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message ... In article , "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote: Two ideal demographics: The Jaguar Owners Club The Lotus Owners Club Don't forget Triumph and BSA owners. Hell, since all these guys have been dealing with Lucas equipment, it won't have to be all that reliable electrically either. Ron You beat me to it. Wonder if there are any more of those T-shirts around with "Lucas Electrics- Prince of Darkness" on them? Until the last magdyno goes dim, there will always be a Lucas-jibing novelty t-shirt. True story: I helped my father rewind a magneto for his 1958 AJS by hand. A magneto has about a mile of hair-fine wire (actually, slightly finer than a human hair) in it. Fortunately, an instrument tech at his place of work taught him a technique for welding wire breaks using a lighter. More relevant to this thread: the fun thing about mid-1960s motorcycle magazines is how they referred to various bikes as "very oil-tight" or "especially oil-tight." Then the Japanese motorcycles arrived, andy everyone discovered that "oil-tight" didn't need an adjective. They just didn't leak oil. Here's my thoughts on this matter of soulful frames: 1) soul is shorthand for "my riding buddies are impressed by heritagenous Italian frame names." 2) facing and chasing should be done at the frame shop, not the bike shop. There is nothing in the frame faces that will change between departure from the manufacturer's door and the start of bike assembly, and there is no advantage to having bike shops do it one-by-one, unlike custom parts specs, where the shop has the competitive advantage of having the customer (who may have unusually long arms and a singleminded desire for a MegaExo BB) in front of them and the ability to choose from a wide range of parts. If frames aren't coming square from the factory (especially if they're Ti) then heaven help us. We used to accept horizontal dropouts mainly because the framebuilders couldn't do vertical dropouts accurately, but they got over that. -- Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos |
#24
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Italian/steel frames need more prep?
There is a long history of bike building in, say, Italy with a tradition
of how things are done and what's important. Some factory town in China has no idea of that. All they know is that XYZ-Megacorp will pay them more to make bikes than ABC-Maxicorp paid for the lawn furniture. The spec sheet and the company qc rep says make it look like so, and it does. But if you truly do lay out all the relevant specs, not just the ones that determine that it looks like a BSO (bike shaped object), the factory that had never built anything but lawnchairs before might, with a bit of time, learn how to build a very nice bike. It can be done. The Chinese didn't now zip about computer equipment not that long ago. Now? That's where an awful lot of stuff comes from. They didn't initially learn by themselves; they were told what to make, and how. Eventually they evolved and learned and essentially backward-engineered things and can be counted on to come out with original designs and techniques. But for now, they're producing stuff that works, without having a long history of having worked with that type of equipment. Just spec sheets and people teaching them how. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com "RonSonic" wrote in message ... On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:45:10 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote: In that high end frame. I have seen poor prep and workmanship from just about every frame maker out there, European, Chinese, Tiawanese, US, depends. Alternatively, I have seen spectacular workmanship from small builders, like Nobilette and Mondonico. It's not because of steel, it's because of the bike biz being flat for so long and poor workmanship. They do not attract the craft-people they once did, except for asia... But it's not just about what is produced, but also what is demanded. The general public doesn't seem to care about what's under the hood... they just want a pretty paint job. The smallest flaw in the paint becomes far more important than anything else you might try to show and/or explain to somebody. This disconnect is extreme between new (customers) & old-world (traditional craftsman) thinking... the craftsman is often more concerned with how things have always been, and making something that is extremely functional. This contrasts with the Asian model, which seems to focus first on something that appears to be superior (because the outside appearance is the easiest for people to judge) and only later does quality become a major issue. A lot probably has to do with why they're building the bike, or rather how it is they ended up making bikes instead of lighting trusses or landing gear or exhaust manifolds. There is a long history of bike building in, say, Italy with a tradition of how things are done and what's important. Some factory town in China has no idea of that. All they know is that XYZ-Megacorp will pay them more to make bikes than ABC-Maxicorp paid for the lawn furniture. The spec sheet and the company qc rep says make it look like so, and it does. There may also me a benevolent form of inexperience at work. The emeging country manufacturers aren't confident of just what they can get away with. Ron The public, given a choice between something that's cheap and appears high-quality, and something that costs more, is higher-quality but doesn't appear much different... well, you and I both know which they'll want to buy. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com "Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message roups.com... Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote: I got my new MTB frame in the mail yesterday, and the first thing I noticed was that it was totally clean. Spotless. Greaseless. Honed, sparkling, radiant. The BB shell was clean with no paint in the threads, the headtube the same, and the dropouts properly prepped with no paint where the axle sits. This was a $200 MTB frame from Taiwan. Now, flashback to two weeks ago. A customer's crash-replacement Made-in-Italy Bianchi Pinella frame ($1800 retail) comes in for me to build up, and although there's no problems on painted areas, there's virtually no attention to detail when it comes to the bottom bracket or headset! There's slag strewn everywhere inside the BB (even bits I can break off with my fingernail), there's bubbling on the opposing side of the welds, it's totally unfinished with paint all up in the threads, and the headtube looks plain discolored and ugly. This was a steel frame, so I don't know if the rules governing steel are different from aluminum, but upon first look, I would have been ashamed if I were a framebuilder and let one go out like that. Sure there's prep required on the bike shop end, but can there really be so little workmanship pride on these high-end frames? What am I missing here? -- Phil, Squid-in-Training In that high end frame. I have seen poor prep and workmanship from just about every frame maker out there, European, Chinese, Tiawanese, US, depends. Alternatively, I have seen spectacular workmanship from small builders, like Nobilette and Mondonico. It's not because of steel, it's because of the bike biz being flat for so long and poor workmanship. They do not attract the craft-people they once did, except for asia... |
#25
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Italian/steel frames need more prep?
Phil, you were generous enough to share with us who made the badly
preped frame. Mid sharing who made the $200 well preped frame? I'd like a non-smelly frame 8-) |
#26
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Italian/steel frames need more prep?
In article
. com, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote: [...] In that high end frame. I have seen poor prep and workmanship from just about every frame maker out there, European, Chinese, Tiawanese, US, depends. Alternatively, I have seen spectacular workmanship from small builders, like Nobilette and Mondonico. It's not because of steel, it's because of the bike biz being flat for so long and poor workmanship. They do not attract the craft-people they once did, except for asia... Canada? Marinoni falls into which set? I have a five year old built-to-order steel frame that came clean from them. -- Michael Press |
#27
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Italian/steel frames need more prep?
"Helmut Springer" wrote in message ... G.T. wrote: I think it's absurd that this ends up the bike shop's responsibility. This is business, nothing is absurd if it is according to contractual responsibilities or business model. I love captalism. Where elese would 99% of business people favor the "Barely Meet Expectations" business model over the "Do What's Right" business model. Greg |
#28
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Italian/steel frames need more prep?
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:51:16 -0800, "G.T." wrote:
"Helmut Springer" wrote in message ... G.T. wrote: I think it's absurd that this ends up the bike shop's responsibility. This is business, nothing is absurd if it is according to contractual responsibilities or business model. I love captalism. Where elese would 99% of business people favor the "Barely Meet Expectations" business model over the "Do What's Right" business model. What's the system that promotes the "do what's right" model? Ron |
#29
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Italian/steel frames need more prep?
"RonSonic" wrote in message ... On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:51:16 -0800, "G.T." wrote: "Helmut Springer" wrote in message ... G.T. wrote: I think it's absurd that this ends up the bike shop's responsibility. This is business, nothing is absurd if it is according to contractual responsibilities or business model. I love captalism. Where elese would 99% of business people favor the "Barely Meet Expectations" business model over the "Do What's Right" business model. What's the system that promotes the "do what's right" model? Basic ethical living? Greg |
#30
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Italian/steel frames need more prep?
A lot probably has to do with why they're building the bike, or rather how it is
they ended up making bikes instead of lighting trusses or landing gear or exhaust manifolds. There is a long history of bike building in, say, Italy with a tradition of how things are done and what's important. Some factory town in China has no idea of that. All they know is that XYZ-Megacorp will pay them more to make bikes than ABC-Maxicorp paid for the lawn furniture. The spec sheet and the company qc rep says make it look like so, and it does. Does China not have a long history of bike building? Afterall, there are probably more bikes in daily use in China at least in an absolute sense, though perhaps not a per capita sense compared to various, much smaller cycling havens, than anywhere else in the world. Where did all those bikes come from before China started making bikes for export to the rest of the world on behalf of XYZ-Megacorp? Here's an interesting page I just found via google: http://www.imperialtours.net/bicycle.htm I suppose the start of their domestic bicycle industry in the 1930s doesn't sound as "organic" or soulful as Italian or whatever builders making one-offs for their racing clientele. But 70+ years of manufacturing something invented 120+ years ago (the safety bike anyway) still seems like a decently long history. There may also me a benevolent form of inexperience at work. The emeging country manufacturers aren't confident of just what they can get away with. Or they manufacture to David Pye's "workmanship of certainty" rather than the "workmanship of risk" that may form the basis of the "soul" of the Italian frame being discussed. Either way, the end result is still important. If the end result is incorrect, incomplete or otherwise in need of significant re-work, it is still *bad* workmanship, regardless of how much "soul" went into making it. |
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