What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting)

I have had great results with the Showers Pass Elite jacket. As others
have pointed out, "waterproof" and "breathable" are mutually exclusive
(Gore's marketspeak notwithstanding- water vapor molecules can't pass
through the membrane when it's wetter outside than in). A good
ventilation strategy is key. The Showers Pass jacket's ventilation
works quite well IME. It will also be well below your budget of £300
(the exchange rate ought to bring it below £100).

http://www.showerspass.com/cart/index.php?cPath=21_25

Hope this helps!

Tim McNamara wrote:
I have had great results with the Showers Pass Elite jacket. As others
have pointed out, "waterproof" and "breathable" are mutually exclusive
(Gore's marketspeak notwithstanding- water vapor molecules can't pass
through the membrane when it's wetter outside than in).

Up to a point, Lord Copper, but "wetter" means there isn't a positive
vapour pressure gradient which isn't necessarily many people's idea of
"wetter", as body heat amongst other factors will create a positive
vapour pressure to push vapour through. You can certainly pass vapour
through into a rainy cloud interior which is about as wet as it gets
before getting submerged.

However, it /is/ the case that practically everyone can easily sweat
faster than a Goretex membrane can shift the result, and that sitting
inside a windproof PTFE bag doesn't exactly inhibit you from sweating in
the first place.

eVent membrane seems to be quite a bit more breathable because the
Clever Folk In White Coats behind it have managed to remove the need for
the microporous layer to have an extra coating to prevent contamination
which made the first microporous fabrics leak when used by sweaty
people... This in turn means it breathes better, but it still won't
breathe as well as if it's not there!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

I am looking for something that is:

b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE

As suggested elsewhere, "highly breathable" and waterproof don't come
together, with the possible exception of Paramo's Analogy kit but that
falls down on "ultra compact" and can be a bit warm if it isn't very
cold. Hey ho.

We can put rockets on the moon but we STILL cant make a waterproof
highly breathable jacket. I'd call it pretty pathetic!

But maybe the answer could lie in very sophisticated venting.
e.g. under-arm vents.

Like I say I am a fan of Paramo for hillwalking. Except it is way too
hot and a bit
bulky for my cycling.

a) Bright in colour /reflective at night

The two don't come together, you'll need a bright colour and a separate
reflective system, scotchlite piping is probably more easily available
and it works well.

This really *IS* truly pathetic that the manufacturers cant build some
decent
reflectors into their jackets. (.e.g What's wrong with Scotlite or
whatever its called?
And why cant they build some patterns of that in!)
I notice that glove manufacturers tend to fail miserably in this
department too!

c) ultra-Compact
d) nearly(+) waterproof
e) COOL

Pertex hits all the bases above although it will only keep the worst of
the rain off. It's near as dammit windproof, but that does take away
the cooling effect of the wind. There are various pertex cycle tops
available.

Sorry YES! I forgot to mention. I currently own and use a Pertex top
from Montane. VERY light & compressible *and* bright yellow so quite
visible.

*But* it's just not very waterproof.

I regularly wash it in Nicwax Tech Wash and quite often in Nicwax TX
Direct
but it's still pretty useless at keeping out even a mild shower. At
least after
say a week of wearing it it becomes useless! The other problem is that
even *immediately* after I've just washed it, my girlfriend complains
that
it stinks! She's correct it - that Nicwax stuff does smell rather -
particularly
after you pass a (VERY!) light iron over it as directed.
Maybe there are better proofing fluids out there?

But come off it - what do professional racers wear when they are
training
and it rains?


Plus ideally:
f) aerodyamic/elastic??
g) fairly durable?

Pertex is actually pretty durable but not elastic. Something lie
Schoeller Dryskin would be stretchy, but probably a bit warm and I've
yet to see in hi-viz.
Too warm is a deal-breaker.


I have a Paramo (Model: "Alta"??) jacket that is very durable,
*massively*
breathable and though not *technically* waterproof

Paramo kit is waterproof.

I'm told that depends who you speak to - apparently it doesnt
hold back enough atmosphere's pressure to count
But in practice I would certainly agree.

...BUT it's not elasticated and thus flaps around rather
and in any case it is FAR TOO HOT (& too heavy).

A pertex top is like a Paramo jacket without the lining. If you get a
close fit it'll not flap too much.
I presume It would still be better if elasticated...


e.g. "Gore Bikewear Concept Jacket" £349.99
e.g. "Gore Bikewear Fusion Jacket" £259.99

Gore windproof stuff relies on laminates that while more breathable than
classic, Paclite and XCR Goretex are still not /that/ breatahble
compared to the laminate not being there. There's also stuff like the
Foska training tops which rely on a sandwich construction, but they're
not that cool. Ideal for winter though.
How do Foska compare with Paramo?
& where can I get them from?


Ship

Ozzo September Jacket* is wind resistant, light & flouresent in colour,
packs up very small, highly breathable, smooth & quite close-fitting, and
lasts for years. Sew on some Scotchlite tape if you want reflectives. Not
water resistant - but please see my comments below. In the coldest weather
I find a Lusso Tactel gilet underneath is good for extra wind resistance
without causing over-heating.

Doesnt sound any more waterproof then my Pertex thing from Montane.
i.e. Not very showerproof at all!

Ship

"ship" wrote in message
ups.com...

But come off it - what do professional racers wear when they are
training and it rains?

Think about what rain gear is trying to do. On a very simplistic level,
'waterproof' describes it - ie keeping the water off. If one is wearing
one's office clothes underneath, this is probably a relevant feature.
However the actual problem this sort of clothing is trying to solve is how
to keep warm (ok, I started off saying 'most', but then thought about what
clothing does these days :-) ). So being wet isn't actually a problem so
long as you're still warm. Which is the pro racer approach - the rain
jackets they wear don't appear to have any pretence at being breathable. The
most important bit is being windproof - stop the air blowing through, and
you stop windchill. Bit boil in the bag, but this doesn't matter as long as
they can let enough heat out. End of ride, take off manky wet jersey, wash,
no problem.

cheers,
clive

ship wrote:

We can put rockets on the moon but we STILL cant make a waterproof
highly breathable jacket. I'd call it pretty pathetic!

No, rockets to the moon is straightforward reaction physics. Rocket
science is not exactly, errr, rocket science, in other words (the
engineering can be tricky, but the physics is easy!).
But with "waterproof breathable" you want air to freely pass through a
jacket while stopping liquid water. That isn't actually too easy.

But maybe the answer could lie in very sophisticated venting.
e.g. under-arm vents.

That's not sophisticated though. Hot air rises, and under arm vents are
pointing in the wrong direction. Of course, if they point the right way
the rain gets in...

This really *IS* truly pathetic that the manufacturers cant build some
decent

Lots of them do. My Mardale pertex top has it, my wife's Paramo Velez
has it, her Foska training jacket has it, my Lowe Atom waterproof has
it, my Ronhill cycling waterproofs have it, etc.

Sorry YES! I forgot to mention. I currently own and use a Pertex top
from Montane. VERY light & compressible *and* bright yellow so quite
visible.

*But* it's just not very waterproof.

Go back to the first paragraph... the more stuff you have keeping liquid
water out, the more you will prevent free flow of air too.

But come off it - what do professional racers wear when they are
training and it rains?

I doubt rain bothers them that much, to be honest, as long as they're
warm enough then other comfort issues are moot for a pro.

I'm told that depends who you speak to - apparently it doesnt
hold back enough atmosphere's pressure to count
But in practice I would certainly agree.

Hydrostatic head. That doesn't factor in the pump effect because that
relies on you being in the jacket, which is why the lab tests say no.

How do Foska compare with Paramo?
& where can I get them from?

Not sure how the warmth would compare so won't answer.
www.foska.com!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On 16 Oct 2006 04:20:29 -0700, "ship" wrote:


Hi

What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in
UK)

I am looking for something that is:

b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE
a) Bright in colour /reflective at night
c) ultra-Compact
d) nearly(+) waterproof
e) COOL

Plus ideally:
f) aerodyamic/elastic??
g) fairly durable?

Budget: upto GBP 300.

I do a lot of mountaineering as well as cycling and I have a range of
jackets which I use for both activities.

My Paramo Aspira smock is the undoubted winner in the cold and/or
extreme wet for cycling and winter mountaineering. It will keep you
warm and dry. It's bright in the day, but has no reflectives so I
keep my bike well lit at night. It's quite long so doesn't need an
extended back.

http://www.paramo.co.uk/UK/acatalog/...ck-16-114.html

Berghaus Bike is my everyday winter jacket, but it's a bit sweaty.
It's certainly shower proof but it's very heavy. The reflective
piping is excellent. I never use it for hill walking. It has an
extended back.

I don't think its still manafactured.

Berghaus paclite is very light, showerproof and has good ventilation.
Excellent for summer hillwalking and cycling when there is a
possibility of a short sharp storm. It has no reflectives, so keep
your bike well lit. It's short so you'll get a wet back.

http://www.berghaus.com/

ship wrote:
Ozzo September Jacket* is wind resistant, light & flouresent in
colour, packs up very small, highly breathable, smooth & quite
close-fitting, and lasts for years. Sew on some Scotchlite tape if
you want reflectives. Not water resistant - but please see my
comments below. In the coldest weather I find a Lusso Tactel gilet
underneath is good for extra wind resistance without causing
over-heating.

Doesnt sound any more waterproof then my Pertex thing from Montane.
i.e. Not very showerproof at all!

I said it was not water resistant. It's a recommendation for a
non-showerproof wind resistant jacket to wear when it's not raining.
Please read my whole message.

~PB

Pete Biggs wrote:
ship wrote:
Ozzo September Jacket* is wind resistant, light & flouresent in
colour, packs up very small, highly breathable, smooth & quite
close-fitting, and lasts for years. Sew on some Scotchlite tape if
you want reflectives. Not water resistant - but please see my
comments below. In the coldest weather I find a Lusso Tactel gilet
underneath is good for extra wind resistance without causing
over-heating.

Doesnt sound any more waterproof then my Pertex thing from Montane.
i.e. Not very showerproof at all!

I said it was not water resistant. It's a recommendation for a
non-showerproof wind resistant jacket to wear when it's not raining.
Please read my whole message.

Yes Pete I just tried to re read your message(s).

And my response is please re-read mine whole message.
I have need something that is at least VERY showerproof - not
very shower proof just wont cut it!

The thing is yes, if the weather is looking *completely* dry then
I can cheerfully wear my Pertex thing from Montane.
It's quite visible being bright yellow, incredibly soft & compressible
(good for packing away) and it keeps the wind down moderately.

But if the weather is "spitting" a little (as opposed to a down-poor)
then
I need something much better then the pertex - which unless I've only
just re-proofed it becomes pretty useless in actual *rain* of any sort.

It sounds to me that even if I spend GBP 300 or 400+, the jacket
I seek simply doesnt really exist.

Okay one final thought. What about wearing *two* layers of pertex?

Or better yet - how about this crazy-sounding idea?

According to Paramo theory the whole *reason* it's "analogy" jackets
pump so
well is because it has two hydrophobic layers of different diameter
fibers.
And by having very fine fibres on the *inside*
and larger diameter fibres on the *outside* any water droplets will, in
theory,
be drawn to the outside. (Though where the *energy* comes from to
power
this pump movement remains a slight enigma!!).

Anyhow, suppose I could find two two very, very lightweight jackets
(each being the sort of thing that will easily compress down to
something about the size of an apple)
and suppose that - an here's the important bit - one being made from
somewhat
larger diameter fibers... THEN maybe together they would pump water out

and thus keep me way drier then one would expect (e.g. from a pair of
identical
pertex jackets).

So all I need now is to find another hydrophobic (water repelling)
jacket a bit like my Pertex from Montane... that is very light and
compressible... but which has individual fabric fibres that
are *either* much larger OR much smaller than the Montane one.

That way I would get something that compresses to the size of a pair of

apples that will pump the rain and sweat out... Even though
individually
neither jacket is even close to being 'water proof'...

Obviously it would run slighly hot (being as in slightly cold weather
even one pertex jacket gets me rather hot after 20 minutes of cycling)
But that would still be nothing like how hot/sweaty I get with a
(Goretex)
Paclite or with a heavy 'waterproof' type of Paramo!

Mind you the problem with my Pertex is that it only has MINUTE
reflectors (who so slighltly small !!?). Plus it has almost nothing in
the way
of vents...


ship

P.S. Btw I simply wear a work shirt under my jacket(s).

































Ship

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...
I have had great results with the Showers Pass Elite jacket.
As others
have pointed out, "waterproof" and "breathable" are mutually
exclusive
(Gore's marketspeak notwithstanding- water vapor molecules
can't pass
through the membrane when it's wetter outside than in). A good
ventilation strategy is key. The Showers Pass jacket's
ventilation
works quite well IME. It will also be well below your budget
of £300
(the exchange rate ought to bring it below £100).

http://www.showerspass.com/cart/index.php?cPath=21_25

Hope this helps!

This jacket has been getting very good reviews in Portland and
appears to be the jacket of choice among the wrenches --
particularly now that Burley is swirling down the tubes. -- Jay
Beattie.