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Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 14th 04, 07:18 AM
Luke
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Default Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice


I've done it and most likely everyone else on this group has also:
Bought a component ill suited for the purpose because you "must have
it." This despite knowing better or receiving advice urging otherwise.

In this case the component in question is a rear wheel. (One half of a
Ritchie Design wheelset whose exact designation escapes me) It has 28
bladed DT spokes laced to a semi-aero rim (the one with off center
spoke holes calculated to reduce drive and non-drive side spoke tension
differences.) I can't recall whether it was laced 2X or 3X. And the
glutton for punishment was a 210 pound friend of mine who used this
wheel on his Specialized Sirrus for commuting. Just the sort of riding
that would benefit from bladed spokes

Against good advice (mine:-) he persisted. First week: Broken spoke.
Third week: Another broken spoke. 1 Month or so: Another broken spoke.
Most likely a poor initial wheel build contributed to the spoke
failures. Perhaps the wheel was never stress relieved or tensioned
properly to begin with. Even so, I thought it foolish using a wheel
with a such a low spoke count.

Upon the first spoke failure, the repair was performed by the LBS that
sold him the wheelset. The two following failures were attended to by a
wrench at a second LBS. On both occasions the second LBS recommended
that the Ritchie wheel not be used. (i.e. Offered sage advice, which my
friend disregarded)

Then following the third failure and under recommendation by a wrench
at a third LBS, the wheel was rebuilt using straight (15) gauge
stainless spokes. This was a surprise. It was a mystery to me why the
LBS would undertake to relace the wheel rather than recommend a more
robust alternative.

Fifty kilometers following the rebuild the wheel was well on it's way
to failing. Four spokes were so loose I could tighten their nipples
without the aid of a wrench. Obviously it wasn't tensioned and/or
stress relieved properly. Shoddy work.

My advice ;
a) Return the wheel to the LBS so the wrench who rebuilt it could
explain how his 'guaranteed' work came undone in 50 KM.
b) Get a wheel with a higher spoke count; 36 preferably. This has
since been heeded.

Most of the aggravation - on both the buyer's and seller's part -
could've been avoided if the initial LBS that sold him the wheel,
steered him to a more suitable choice. A LBS *should* attempt to
educate a prospective buyer about a purchase and buyer should consider
the info when deciding. (In a perfect world of course) The educated
buyer that disregards sound advice and persists in his folly is free to
squander his money and complicate his life as he sees fit.

I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate bicycle shops:

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business
relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his
bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and
good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve
an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross
purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a
customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself?

luke
Ads
  #2  
Old May 14th 04, 01:58 PM
Qui si parla Campagnolo
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Posts: n/a
Default Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice

Luca- I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business
relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his
bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and
good service are requisite BRBR
But at what point do you continue to serve
an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross
purposes to serving his needs? BRBR

Since a poor choice by a customer in the end ends up taking more of our time to
stand behind what we sold, which means it costs us money, we generally don't do
it/sell it. If a 250 pound rider wants a light/low number/thin spoke wheel, we
say-sorry...try Excel.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
  #3  
Old May 14th 04, 02:07 PM
ajames54
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Posts: n/a
Default Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice

Luke wrote in message ...

SCHNIP

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business
relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his
bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and
good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve
an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross
purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a
customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself?

luke


It's a wonderful "Catch - 22" situation...

If the customer KNOWS what he needs he or she is often VERY resistant
to any suggestion the they may be wrong. Often either you are calling
them stupid or trying to sell them something different because you
make more money... even if it is totally inappropriate. As an aside
(and no refrence to you or your post) one of the funniest things in
retail is the "expert friend" ... this is the guy who comes along with
the buyer to make sure he gets what he really needs. So you usually
end up with two people who don't know what they are talking about
trying to decide what to buy.

Often the only thing you can do is point out the problems he "may"
have and the things he may need to Worry about, then suggest the
option where he wont have to worry..

In the whole features vs. benefits discussion often the greatest
benefit you can sell a customer is "you wont have to worry..." (Hell
nobody wants to buy something they'll have to worry about )

I only once had to refuse a customers request... He wanted his bar
ends mounted backwards ... pointing back towards him .. and slighly
down towards his knees. I told him why it was a bad idea and told him
that I would install them the correct way but would not do what he
wanted.. sombody in town did though.

Finally .. I agree that the wheel he purchased was definately not the
best choice but the problems he's having sound far more serious than I
would have expected... Unfortunatly since he is on to shop three with
the same wheel there is bugger all that can be done now.
  #4  
Old May 14th 04, 02:18 PM
ari
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice

So he buys a fairly conventional ritchey wheel with 28 spokes, and has
problems with trueness. breaking spokes, loosening spokes, etc. Sounds
like a problem with the initial build. If that wheel was disassembled
and put back together again by a "master wheelbuilder" then I am very
confident that same 28 spoke wheel would have held up just fine. As a
former 200 pounder I have a lot of experience with unreliable OEM wheels
that need truing and maintentance all the time and LIGHTER aftermarket
wheels (with fewer spokes even) assembled by good builders: Joe Young,
and my favorite Dave Thomas. He's 210 pounds, only commutes to work on
it, that ritchey wheel would have been fine had it been put together
right. In other words, the wheel WAS a suitable choice. Sure not the
best choice, but there is no excuse for the kind of problems you
described. If I bought a shoddily constructed steel frame, I wouldn't
get on a soapbox and declare that steel frames are a bad choice for me.



Luke wrote:

I've done it and most likely everyone else on this group has also:
Bought a component ill suited for the purpose because you "must have
it." This despite knowing better or receiving advice urging otherwise.

In this case the component in question is a rear wheel. (One half of a
Ritchie Design wheelset whose exact designation escapes me) It has 28
bladed DT spokes laced to a semi-aero rim (the one with off center
spoke holes calculated to reduce drive and non-drive side spoke tension
differences.) I can't recall whether it was laced 2X or 3X. And the
glutton for punishment was a 210 pound friend of mine who used this
wheel on his Specialized Sirrus for commuting. Just the sort of riding
that would benefit from bladed spokes

Against good advice (mine:-) he persisted. First week: Broken spoke.
Third week: Another broken spoke. 1 Month or so: Another broken spoke.
Most likely a poor initial wheel build contributed to the spoke
failures. Perhaps the wheel was never stress relieved or tensioned
properly to begin with. Even so, I thought it foolish using a wheel
with a such a low spoke count.

Upon the first spoke failure, the repair was performed by the LBS that
sold him the wheelset. The two following failures were attended to by a
wrench at a second LBS. On both occasions the second LBS recommended
that the Ritchie wheel not be used. (i.e. Offered sage advice, which my
friend disregarded)

Then following the third failure and under recommendation by a wrench
at a third LBS, the wheel was rebuilt using straight (15) gauge
stainless spokes. This was a surprise. It was a mystery to me why the
LBS would undertake to relace the wheel rather than recommend a more
robust alternative.

Fifty kilometers following the rebuild the wheel was well on it's way
to failing. Four spokes were so loose I could tighten their nipples
without the aid of a wrench. Obviously it wasn't tensioned and/or
stress relieved properly. Shoddy work.

My advice ;
a) Return the wheel to the LBS so the wrench who rebuilt it could
explain how his 'guaranteed' work came undone in 50 KM.
b) Get a wheel with a higher spoke count; 36 preferably. This has
since been heeded.

Most of the aggravation - on both the buyer's and seller's part -
could've been avoided if the initial LBS that sold him the wheel,
steered him to a more suitable choice. A LBS *should* attempt to
educate a prospective buyer about a purchase and buyer should consider
the info when deciding. (In a perfect world of course) The educated
buyer that disregards sound advice and persists in his folly is free to
squander his money and complicate his life as he sees fit.

I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate bicycle shops:

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business
relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his
bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and
good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve
an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross
purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a
customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself?

luke


  #5  
Old May 14th 04, 02:23 PM
Russ Baxter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice

Luke wrote in message ...
I've done it and most likely everyone else on this group has also:
Bought a component ill suited for the purpose because you "must have
it." This despite knowing better or receiving advice urging otherwise.

In this case the component in question is a rear wheel. (One half of a
Ritchie Design wheelset whose exact designation escapes me) It has 28
bladed DT spokes laced to a semi-aero rim (the one with off center
spoke holes calculated to reduce drive and non-drive side spoke tension
differences.) I can't recall whether it was laced 2X or 3X. And the
glutton for punishment was a 210 pound friend of mine who used this
wheel on his Specialized Sirrus for commuting. Just the sort of riding
that would benefit from bladed spokes

Against good advice (mine:-) he persisted. First week: Broken spoke.
Third week: Another broken spoke. 1 Month or so: Another broken spoke.
Most likely a poor initial wheel build contributed to the spoke
failures. Perhaps the wheel was never stress relieved or tensioned
properly to begin with. Even so, I thought it foolish using a wheel
with a such a low spoke count.

Upon the first spoke failure, the repair was performed by the LBS that
sold him the wheelset. The two following failures were attended to by a
wrench at a second LBS. On both occasions the second LBS recommended
that the Ritchie wheel not be used. (i.e. Offered sage advice, which my
friend disregarded)

Then following the third failure and under recommendation by a wrench
at a third LBS, the wheel was rebuilt using straight (15) gauge
stainless spokes. This was a surprise. It was a mystery to me why the
LBS would undertake to relace the wheel rather than recommend a more
robust alternative.

Fifty kilometers following the rebuild the wheel was well on it's way
to failing. Four spokes were so loose I could tighten their nipples
without the aid of a wrench. Obviously it wasn't tensioned and/or
stress relieved properly. Shoddy work.

My advice ;
a) Return the wheel to the LBS so the wrench who rebuilt it could
explain how his 'guaranteed' work came undone in 50 KM.
b) Get a wheel with a higher spoke count; 36 preferably. This has
since been heeded.

Most of the aggravation - on both the buyer's and seller's part -
could've been avoided if the initial LBS that sold him the wheel,
steered him to a more suitable choice. A LBS *should* attempt to
educate a prospective buyer about a purchase and buyer should consider
the info when deciding. (In a perfect world of course) The educated
buyer that disregards sound advice and persists in his folly is free to
squander his money and complicate his life as he sees fit.

I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate bicycle shops:

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business
relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his
bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and
good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve
an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross
purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a
customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself?

luke



I have a similar set of Ritchey wheels that had spoke breakage
problems. I called Ritchey and they said they said some of the wheels
were manufactured with defective spokes. I sent the wheel back per
their instructions, it was rebuilt and I haven't broken a spoke since.
  #6  
Old May 14th 04, 02:38 PM
basjan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice


"Luke" wrote in message
...

I've done it and most likely everyone else on this group has also:
Bought a component ill suited for the purpose because you "must have
it." This despite knowing better or receiving advice urging otherwise.

In this case the component in question is a rear wheel. (One half of a
Ritchie Design wheelset whose exact designation escapes me) It has 28
bladed DT spokes laced to a semi-aero rim (the one with off center
spoke holes calculated to reduce drive and non-drive side spoke tension
differences.) I can't recall whether it was laced 2X or 3X. And the
glutton for punishment was a 210 pound friend of mine who used this
wheel on his Specialized Sirrus for commuting. Just the sort of riding
that would benefit from bladed spokes

Against good advice (mine:-) he persisted. First week: Broken spoke.
Third week: Another broken spoke. 1 Month or so: Another broken spoke.
Most likely a poor initial wheel build contributed to the spoke
failures. Perhaps the wheel was never stress relieved or tensioned
properly to begin with. Even so, I thought it foolish using a wheel
with a such a low spoke count.

Upon the first spoke failure, the repair was performed by the LBS that
sold him the wheelset. The two following failures were attended to by a
wrench at a second LBS. On both occasions the second LBS recommended
that the Ritchie wheel not be used. (i.e. Offered sage advice, which my
friend disregarded)

Then following the third failure and under recommendation by a wrench
at a third LBS, the wheel was rebuilt using straight (15) gauge
stainless spokes. This was a surprise. It was a mystery to me why the
LBS would undertake to relace the wheel rather than recommend a more
robust alternative.

Fifty kilometers following the rebuild the wheel was well on it's way
to failing. Four spokes were so loose I could tighten their nipples
without the aid of a wrench. Obviously it wasn't tensioned and/or
stress relieved properly. Shoddy work.

My advice ;
a) Return the wheel to the LBS so the wrench who rebuilt it could
explain how his 'guaranteed' work came undone in 50 KM.
b) Get a wheel with a higher spoke count; 36 preferably. This has
since been heeded.

Most of the aggravation - on both the buyer's and seller's part -
could've been avoided if the initial LBS that sold him the wheel,
steered him to a more suitable choice. A LBS *should* attempt to
educate a prospective buyer about a purchase and buyer should consider
the info when deciding. (In a perfect world of course) The educated
buyer that disregards sound advice and persists in his folly is free to
squander his money and complicate his life as he sees fit.

I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate bicycle shops:

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business
relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his
bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and
good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve
an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross
purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a
customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself?

luke


Unsound advice aside (I agree that some of us often buy what don't need or
even need to use) - Ritchey has had a problem with some of their pre-built
wheelsets a year or two ago. It had to do with exactly this, continued
spoke failure. And the problem apparently had something to do with the hubs
(bad finish at the drill-holes?) This has been fixed since, and even the
one you mentioned is a lower-spoke wheel, should not present such a
continued problem...

Jan


  #7  
Old May 14th 04, 07:03 PM
Tim McNamara
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice

Luke writes:

I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate bicycle shops:

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous
business relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and
enjoying his bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right
equipment and good service are requisite. But at what point do you
continue to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his
wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently
refused to entertain a customer's request in order to, in effect,
protect him from himself?


As Jesse Ventura observed, "you can't legislate against stupidity."
All the shop owner can do is warn the buyer that this product is not
well suited to the purpose. Most customers will heed your advice; the
ones in Lycra will heed what they read on the Internet or in bike
rags.
  #8  
Old May 14th 04, 07:31 PM
SDMike
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Posts: n/a
Default Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice


snip
I have a similar set of Ritchey wheels that had spoke breakage
problems. I called Ritchey and they said they said some of the wheels
were manufactured with defective spokes. I sent the wheel back per
their instructions, it was rebuilt and I haven't broken a spoke since.


I have a pair of Ritchey Pro wheels (20/28 like the OP's) and have never had a
problem with them. I'm running 180-190# right now 'cause my back's jacked.

Now if I'd bought the WCS version (20/24), I may have had a few more issues, but
I was smarter than that.

M


  #9  
Old May 15th 04, 07:29 AM
Luke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice

In article SG3pc.47997$Z%5.32617@okepread01, ari wrote:

So he buys a fairly conventional ritchey wheel with 28 spokes, and has
problems with trueness. breaking spokes, loosening spokes, etc. Sounds
like a problem with the initial build. If that wheel was disassembled
and put back together again by a "master wheelbuilder" then I am very
confident that same 28 spoke wheel would have held up just fine. As a
former 200 pounder I have a lot of experience with unreliable OEM wheels
that need truing and maintentance all the time and LIGHTER aftermarket
wheels (with fewer spokes even) assembled by good builders: Joe Young,
and my favorite Dave Thomas. He's 210 pounds, only commutes to work on
it, that ritchey wheel would have been fine had it been put together
right. In other words, the wheel WAS a suitable choice.



I disagree with the assertion that this wheel is suitable for the
purpose and circumstances attending it's use by my friend. With it's
bladed spokes and a lower spoke count the Ritchie obviously was not
designed with the intent of carting a Clydesdale and his luggage to
work over rough city streets. Time trialling or racing is it's
enviroment. Why would it be considered appropriate if it's to used in a
manner counter to that which it was designed for?

That the wheel was initially built - and rebuilt - poorly was alluded
to in the original post. No argument there. And yes, you can commute on
it. Just as you can - to overstate the case - buy a full suspension MTB
equipped with knobbies for the express purpose of riding exclusively on
asphalt. (Quite a common sight) Nothing wrong with it. Nothing that
much right with it either.


Sure not the
best choice,


Not even a good choice. That option would presume using a component
for it's intended purpose. That which it was designed for.

but there is no excuse for the kind of problems you
described. If I bought a shoddily constructed steel frame, I wouldn't
get on a soapbox and declare that steel frames are a bad choice for me.


My contention is not so much in the quality of construction, although
that was contributory, but rather the quality of use that it's destined
for. Accordingly, a more applicable analogy would be if you bought a
perfectly constructed steel road frame to ride single track/mountain
trails. Regardless of it's meticulous construction the frame would
still be bad choice.


luke
  #10  
Old May 15th 04, 07:36 AM
Luke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice

In article , ajames54
wrote:

Luke wrote in message
...

SCHNIP

I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business
relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his
bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and
good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve
an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross
purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a
customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself?

luke


It's a wonderful "Catch - 22" situation...

If the customer KNOWS what he needs he or she is often VERY resistant
to any suggestion the they may be wrong. Often either you are calling
them stupid or trying to sell them something different because you
make more money... even if it is totally inappropriate. As an aside
(and no refrence to you or your post) one of the funniest things in
retail is the "expert friend" ... this is the guy who comes along with
the buyer to make sure he gets what he really needs. So you usually
end up with two people who don't know what they are talking about
trying to decide what to buy.


snip

Yeah, I've been a silent witness in shops when that very situation has
arisen. ;-) Shop employees must have the patience of Job.

luke
 




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