If Adults on bikes could be as simple as kids on bikes

: Roger: In the auto world, you're generally paying attention to what's in
: FRONT of you, not what's behind (providing you're not changing lanes,
which
: is not the appropriate analogy in this case). You're not looking in the
: rear-view mirror to see if someone is using blinkers to indicate they're
: about to pass you. Perhaps you SHOULD, but unless you've spent much time
on
: a motorcycle, I'll bet you don't spend nearly as much time with your
rear
: view mirror as you should (when you're driving in a straight line, not
: intending to pass anyone or change lanes).

I am constantly checking out what is behind me while I am driving a car.
It
surprises me that you admit you don't. Everyone should; it's part of
driving
a car.

Pat: I ride bicycles, motorcycles and drive cars. As a motorcyclist, I'm
completely paranoid of anything that in front, to the sides, *and* behind
me. And when I'm in the car, same thing... primarily due to the motorcycling
influence. I think I'm the exceptoin; most people (in their cars) don't pay
much attention to their rear-view mirror except when they're thinking about
making a lane change or looking for a cop.

I'm with Roger. When you hear a voice behind you yelling "on your left"
that
means the person belonging to the voice is overtaking on your left side.
It's that simple! All it requires of the person hearing it is to NOT move
left.

You can believe all you want that it's the right thing to do, but that
doesn't change the fact that it rattles the casual cyclist on the road. You
can preach all you want that they should understand, but it's not common
knowledge, nor is it taught in safety ed classes. If you're dealing with
experienced cyclists, it may be appropriate. But even then I have to wonder
why it's necessary, since people following predictable rules of behaviour
really shouldn't be something to be concerned about.

car drivers pass cars on the left. when a car passes you on the left, you
don't panic and jump every which way. Besides, the car analogy on passing
doesn't work here because there were walkers AND vehicles using the same
path. That certainly doesn't happen on a four-lane road. At least not in
Texas....

Pat in TX

But you *might* panic and jump every which way if a car yelled out "on your
left" before passing you, just to make sure you weren't about to weave out
into their path.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Roger Zoul wrote:
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
: : Yesterday my husband and I were walking the multi-use path in
: : Brookdale Park. This is the path where I was knocked over by a
: : cyclist couple who shouted "ON THE LEFT" because I had no idea
: : which way to move.
:
: Maggie, Maggie, Maggie. When someone says "On your left" they are
: essentially telling you that they are on your left and not to move
: there. That tells you to watch your movements to the left, not to
: move. Think about it...if they are passing you on the left, then
: they already have a path over which to travel and they are trying
: to let you know not to get in that path...think more about
: it...they cannot demand that you move...so if you are actually
: blocking their path, they need to stop or they will crash into you.
: I, for one, would certainly not choose to run into any object on my
: bike. But if someone perhaps isn't aware of my rapid approach, I
: would want to let them know I'm coming so they can avoid moving
: into my path.
:
: I 'm with Maggie on this one. The "on your left" stuff just doesn't
: work with a *lot* of people, yet we continue to come up with reasons
: why it's appropriate. Sorry, but people get easily confused when
: something's coming up from behind them, and in the auto world (which
: they're used to), you don't have a similar epithet or appropriate
: response.

Really? In the auto world you have rules that people pass you on the left.
You have signal lights that tell when people are about the change lanes, and
you have side-view and rear-view mirrors. This cycling notion is patterned
after it, but modified as people who walk around don't have side and rear
view mirrors. You saying "on your left" is like turning on your car's
left-turn blinker. It's information.

:
: The problem is the "left" part of it. Somehow it implies that *you*
: (the rider in front) are supposed to do something... but the reality
: is that you're supposed to do absolutely nothing except hold your
: present line.

How does saying "on your left" imply that? It's short for "I'm on your
left" and all you need to understand is that someone is approaching you "on
your left". It's very common sense. If you choose to overthink things....

:
: When I'm overtaking other cyclists, and note that they're riding in a
: predictable fashion, I say nothing. Actually, that's not quite true;
: if there's an opportunity to make myself known audibly, as in casual
: chat with other cyclists, I do so. Why? Because it's not
: intimidating, and lets someone know you're there. And then I just
: ride past (on the left, of course) as if everyone's doing the right
: thing (which they are). Just as would happen while driving.

That's not exactly what should happen when driving...the person ahead of you
will see your car approaching, maybe see your left turn signal, and be aware
that you're passing (assuming two-lane roads) and thus not choose to pass at
the same time.

Also, saying "on your left" need not be intimidating....you can certainly
make it so, but there is a thing called "tone" that can either be
off-putting or friendly...

:
: On the other hand, saying "On your left" sounds more like a command
: to get out of the way, perhaps the bicycle equivalent to flashing
: your lights at somebody.

Only if you choose to look at it that way...if the notion is to share a
multi-use passage way, then you take it as information...

:
: And what if the cyclists you're trying to pass are riding all over
: the place? My guess is that it's even more difficult to instill
: order into such situations than to simply find a way to give them a
: wide berth.

If you're trying to pass someone who is all of the place, then you're stupid
for trying to ride passed. It is better to slow down, stay behind and let
them know you're there before trying to ride ahead.

:
: : Well yesterday we were walking and talking when we hear a small
: : childs voice yell in a very loud booming voice from a far
: : distance. "BICYCLE COMING THROUGH. BICYCLE COMING THROUGH".
:
: I like it, but think it's something that works for innocent kids

Seriously, now....kids on bike are innocent but adults aren't? They have to
share the facility just as anyone else.

but
: for adults would tell people that hey, I'm on a bike, I'm superior,
: get the heck out of my way! Which of course is true. If I were
: putting a lot of time in riding on multi-use bikepaths,

It should not be "get out of my way" but "watch out, there's a fast moving
bike here".

I'd invest
: in a ding-ding bell very quickly. It's not rude, and people
: naturally move to the side.

That's a good idea....but asking people to move can always be considered
rude depending on the situation.


I find that saying "Excuse me!" usually works where "on your left"
doesn't. I figure everyone knows what 'excuse me' means.

You're really not learning much here, Mags. Must be a sign of getting
old.


I'm learning I do not enjoy posting to this group. No matter what you
post, there is someone who will take what you say and try to make a
major issue out of it.

Maggie: Don't give up, and don't get too offended when others jump all over
something. There's a lot of self-rationalization that goes on here, and
since this is the internet, no matter what view you have, you'll find
supporters. That's good and bad, as you've seen... people with very narrow
views of how the world should work find happiness when they come across
others who think the same way, even when the great majority of posts differ.

But by posting your own observations, you help a lot of us expand our
understanding of cycling as a whole, rather than the little tiny piece that
represents our own personal experience. You *are* relevant. You have
something to teach us- if we'll listen and assimilate it.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Maggie" wrote in message
ups.com...

Roger Zoul wrote:

You're really not learning much here, Mags. Must be a sign of getting
old.


I'm learning I do not enjoy posting to this group. No matter what you
post, there is someone who will take what you say and try to make a
major issue out of it. I ride my bike on a bike path.....I walk on a
track. I enjoyed what the kids did and wrote about it. I thought
they were very polite on a very congested track filled with older
people, dogs, babies etc. I give kudos to their parents for teaching
them manners. I am glad I joined a cycling club, as they found the
story very cute. They took it for what it was....just a cute story
about three little boys on their bikes.

FYI I have learned alot since I fell in the park last spring when
someone yelled ON YOUR LEFT.

I've been in a 25 mile and a 50 mile ride charity ride and I am setting
my sights on a century. I followed some advice I received from this
group and found people to ride with and I also bike to work. I've come
a long way since I first bought my bike and wrote my first post.

Now I post to people personally when I read this newsgroup. It saves
alot of aggravation. Have you noticed I don't post much. I read and
respond individually. It is a heck of a lot better and I have learned
much from many of you. I thank you for that.
Maggie
http://www.geocities.com/lindaannbus...?1100212880789
http://www.walkamerica.org/personal_page.asp?w=272039

Pat wrote:
I'm with Roger. When you hear a voice behind you yelling "on your left" that
means the person belonging to the voice is overtaking on your left side.
It's that simple! All it requires of the person hearing it is to NOT move
left.

Normal cyclists/pedstrians are going to be paying attention to something
else, and aren't going to be listening for what someone might shout from
behind. It's going to take a moment for them to register that you're saying
something, and that you're addressing them. If you shout "On your left",
then they might hear any of the following:

On your left.
... your left.
... left.

On the other hand, if you shout "Excuse me, I'm passing on your left", then
they might hear any of the following:

Excuse me, I'm passing on your left.
... me, I'm passing on your left.
... I'm passing on your left.
... passing on your left.
... on your left.
... your left.
... left.

Determining the significance of this observation is left as an exercise for
the reader.
--
Darin McGrew, , http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, , http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Advice is what you ask for when you know the answer but wish you didn't."

Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:27:17 GMT,
, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:


Pat: I ride bicycles, motorcycles and drive cars. As a motorcyclist, I'm
completely paranoid of anything that in front, to the sides, *and* behind
me. And when I'm in the car, same thing... primarily due to the motorcycling
influence. I think I'm the exceptoin; most people (in their cars) don't pay
much attention to their rear-view mirror except when they're thinking about
making a lane change or looking for a cop.

Well, there's a few of us who regularly do mirror scans. I habitually
do shoulder checks too before moving a scud. Motorcycling made me a
safer driver. No doubt about it.

I think we would all benefit from a graduated licensing scheme. One
would first have to demonstrate they could survive on a bicycle for
two years in traffic before getting a motorcycle license. The you'd
have to keep a clean driving record with that before being allowed to
take a test in a four wheeler. Those licenses would then be graduated
too. One couldn't pass the test in a SmartCar one day and buy a pickup
truck the next expecting to use that same operators permit.
--
zk

Bill Sornson wrote:
Maggie wrote:
Actually I was trying to praise three little cyclists who were polite
and trained quite well in riding.

Actually, Maggie, kids speeding through pedestrian traffic yelling "BIKES
COMING THROUGH!" is not polite or well-trained. It's rude and dangerous.

HTH, Bill S.

WHO SAID THEY WERE SPEEDING?????? Did I write that?? I was on a
multi use path...filled with everything from old ladies with canes to
toddlers and puppy walkers. There may have been some wheelchairs too.
These kids were not speeding, they were riding carefully and
thoughtfully. They knew they were on a path filled with people and
took the time to make sure people had enough time to realize they were
coming up from behind. These kids were on small bikes and they had
pretty short legs. THEY WERE LITTLE KIDS. It wasn't someone who just
got back from the TdF getting in some training.

I give up. A multi use park path is not the "pedestrian" sidewalk..it
has multiple uses....and they were not speeding. The tone of their
call was not a YELL....it was polite, loud enough to hear and followed
by a thank you. I THINK THEY WERE GREAT KIDS. If they are there next
Sunday, I will be sure to tell them so. Do some of you just enjoy
finding something in a post to rag about? Not in a million years did I
think a post about three nice little kids on their little bikes, would
cause any arguments. LITTLE DO I KNOW!!!
I like the track to walk as bikes are not allowed on it. I like the
bike paths to ride. I also like snow to ski on...but thats another
story.
Riding is much better than fault finding. Riding for Charity and a good
cause is even better. Just my humble opinion.
Maggie

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
You're really not learning much here, Mags. Must be a sign of getting
old.


I'm learning I do not enjoy posting to this group. No matter what you
post, there is someone who will take what you say and try to make a
major issue out of it.

Maggie: Don't give up, and don't get too offended when others jump all over
something. There's a lot of self-rationalization that goes on here, and
since this is the internet, no matter what view you have, you'll find
supporters. That's good and bad, as you've seen... people with very narrow
views of how the world should work find happiness when they come across
others who think the same way, even when the great majority of posts differ.

But by posting your own observations, you help a lot of us expand our
understanding of cycling as a whole, rather than the little tiny piece that
represents our own personal experience. You *are* relevant. You have
something to teach us- if we'll listen and assimilate it.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


You made my day. Good Karma. What you send out comes back to you. I
believe in that. In Buddhist teaching, the law of karma, says for every
event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was
caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or
unpleasant according to what it was. You send out good karma Mike.

Now lets see if that starts a debate. ;-)

Good Karma,
Maggie

wrote:
So here is a really simple solution - Stay to the right, don't block
the trail, then people can get by you without being required to say
anything.

In a perfect world you make alot of sense. Everyone on a multi use path
in a park on a beautiful sunny day...would be on the right so anyone on
a fast moving vehicle coming up behind would not have to worry about
hitting anyone.
All the old people would be on the right, the kids, the dogs, the
people who stop to chat, the little ones playing on the path. Yes, in a
perfect world they would all be on the right. But it's not a perfect
world. This whole thread is nuts.
Maybe I should have kicked those kids and wrote a post saying they were
idiots. How would that have gone over?
Before I began cycling with a group I was knocked down by two cyclists.
That was before I joined a cycling club.

Now that I ride, I would never expect people to move in the direction I
ask or stay to the right on a multi use path. I take responsibility
for not running into anyone. I have a bell and I usually stay off that
type of path. Those paths are for people, old and young, to enjoy and
socialize. As a cyclist I feel that the bike paths are much better and
much safer for all concerned.

The track and field paths are wonderful for walking...and I enjoy not
having to watch for fast moving bikes coming from behind.

When I knew nothing about cycling, I enjoyed posting. Now that I
actually ride, I get frustrated with the comments I read. I can't even
understand that. I thought when I finally began cycling
regularly....this group would be very enjoyable. It was more enjoyable
when I knew **** about bikes. OK....I am over this.

Maggie

Pat wrote:

Okay, I understand now. Maggie gets rattled easily and is still trying to
convince people that she panicked and jumped all over the place when
somebody called out "on your left" ---but she was in the right behaving like
that and the cyclist was in the wrong. That's what the original post is all
about.

Pat in TX

What the hell is your problem woman? The original post was about three
kids. Not about the time I was hit. I just added that for some stupid
reason. What is your problem with me anyway? Just say it. Every
freaking time I have ever posted....and you can look back....you have
to make some kind of negative comment. What the hell is your problem?
If I stay on this newsgroup, there is going to be a cat fight.

Maggie.

Maggie wrote:
: Pat wrote:
:
: Okay, I understand now. Maggie gets rattled easily and is still
: trying to convince people that she panicked and jumped all over the
: place when somebody called out "on your left" ---but she was in the
: right behaving like that and the cyclist was in the wrong. That's
: what the original post is all about.
:
: Pat in TX
:
: What the hell is your problem woman? The original post was about
: three kids. Not about the time I was hit. I just added that for some
: stupid reason. What is your problem with me anyway? Just say it.
: Every
: freaking time I have ever posted....and you can look back....you have
: to make some kind of negative comment. What the hell is your
: problem?
: If I stay on this newsgroup, there is going to be a cat fight.

I think Pat is a guy.